The Creep

[Fenix]

This thread is for improvements, or just things that would be really cool relating to the Creep.




I think that Zerg units (All, not just yours) should heal faster on the Creep, it's been mentioned in the other threads.

That's all I can think of, feel free to post whatever your mind can come up with.

[jamaylott]

what if Non-Zerg units became slow and sluggish while on the creep, could it be a kinda cool defense?

[Gold]

like i said in an earlier thread, it would be cool if creep could roll down the side of cliffs, and things gernally like that
of if dead bodies got aobsrded into it

[WHAT!]

i wonder if they make a building that actually attack using the creep kinda like how the sunken colony uses it to spine enemies.i want a building that can control the creep and will attack units with 30 percent of less health.

[nuraku550]

I haven't seen the creep yet, but i can imagine what it will be like. i think that it would be cool if the creep didn't go away. !!!BUT!!!
If you want to get rid of it, your SCV's or probes could burn it away, or make it go away somehow ^_^.

[10-Neon]

I like the idea of a killable creep, but if it is too weak, it'll be abused.

If the creep could be burned away, imagine how annoying it would be for a Zerg player that got "creep rushed" by an enemy, with an SCV eating away at their buildable ground. Things like nukes would be a lot more devastating too, it would be much harder to rebuild with a huge hole in the creep.

[Inside Sin]

Guys, don't get ideas of the creep being able to fend off units. Because creep is much like on warcraft 3 just to make it look realistic that the buildings are actually part of the ZERG ( Are organisms/animals ) and makes it look like the buildings grow into the creep not on top of it.

I think the healing idea is good enough :D

[Agamemnon]

Yeah any other improvement over slightly faster healing would probably unbalance the game. Especially if it slowed down enemy units. ;D

[Pix]

I think the Nuke should take out creep, though. I mean hell, it makes a huge crater in the ground - surely it would cause some damage to the creep!
Oooo, and the extra effects would be nicely atmospheric.
~Pix~

[Bumbaloe]

I think creep should go down cliffs and when you build a creep colony or hatchery the creep should expand right when it finishes building, not gradually.

[mc2]

The Creep provides nourishment to all zerg structures and units, so technically zerg units should slowly lose health whenever it is not on a creep. But I don't think this should be implemented because it's too much of a disadvantage and would make some serious balance issues.

Zerg units regaining health faster on a creep sounds logical and doable. I don't see why Blizzard wouldn't implement this effect into the game.

Also the creep should expand faster whenever a hatchery or colony is built. Lair and Hive should create a bigger creep.

[SirBaron]

The Creep provides nourishment to all zerg structures and units, so technically zerg units should slowly lose health whenever it is not on a creep.
Doesn't they feed on enemies as well to compensate for that? Or am i completely wrong with this theory? :P

EDIT: well since all zerg heal gradually over time with no regards of what kind of ground they are standing on, then perhaps they should have an increased rate of healing while on creep. Maybe even for buildings. Also that idea of having it cover cliffs and slopes was cool :) blizzard should implement that

[NotDeadYet]

SirBaron, buildings are ALWAYS on creep.

Maybe a Creep Colony could make all the creep around it slow down enemies or heal Zerg units faster, but if the colony evolves into a sunken/spore, it loses this ability? Either that, or make a new type of Creep Colony with the slow down/heal ability.
-NotDeadYet-

[SirBaron]

SirBaron, buildings are ALWAYS on creep.

Haha, that's true. My bad. :)

[Agamemnon]

Such potential for skewing the delicate game balance, especially if it is a land war. ;)

[Zombine]

SirBaron, buildings are ALWAYS on creep.

Haha, that's true. My bad. :)


I feel a need to nit pick, and say extractor.

[sordid]

I think the amount of creep you control should determine your food limit. It would force Zerg players to expand and cover as much of the map as possible instead of clumping together. Somebody tell Blizzard ;D

[overmind]

it should be an improvement for sunken colony.
can attack anyway on freindly creep since the protoss can teleport anyway in pylons.

[Zombine]

theres no distinction for creep, and there shouldn't be any either. Nydus surprise attacks and creep piracy is a big part of the original, and should remain in SC

[overmind]

i always Nydus an enemy creep and send my entire force over(its easy enough to retreat) especially when their building so they don't notice your canal.
IF they had a sunken colony upgrade like i said(and they should) you would need some distinction or it would be chaos.

[mc2]

The sunken colony is weaker than most expect, especially when up against zergings and terran infantry. There needs to be an upgrade where it has a shorter cooldown. That tougue thing is just way too slow.

[Inside Sin]

I think its a spike, but i might be wrong.

[Fenix]

The game calls it "Subterranean Spines." I always thought it looked like a tongue though.

I agree, you should be able to upgrade to cut the amount of cooldown....It's pretty strong, but horribly slow, especially considering the Spore Colony's speed.

[MyWifeforauir]

but not too much or it'll be overpowered

[miteshu]

If all slow down on Creeps?

Zergs win. I can make sunkens everywhere and not even a single race can kill me. Unless if it is the Zerg.

:/

[Gold]

waht if all the creep around the creep coloney (as an upgrade) acted as quick sand, so any unit that stays to still for to long sinks in and dies.
that would make terrans think about seige tanks slightly differently (although they are very rarley on the creep)

[Fenix]

Mm, that might make StarCraft more micro-manage oriented. Maybe if it took like five minutes, or a rather large amount of time.....Rather, they stay on it for too long, it starts sucking out their health slowly....Like it's feeding off of them.

[Gold]

yeah, but i was thinking much much shorter, maybe like 20/30 seconds, so this would be an upgrade of course, and since theve got a new 3d engine, they should literally sink down

any other ideas, i like yours cuase its simplar/easier to do.

[mc2]

After reading the various suggestions, the creep could probably act as the super unit for the zerg. A special ability that can be deployed from the hatcheries or colonies (well a creep is always going to be around one of them). The ability will be to "swallow" the enemy ground unit, much like the Venus Fly Trap.

[Zombine]

maybe if dead units could be fed to the creep, and turned into a health increase in speed or x amount of minerals.

[NotDeadYet]

Hmm... reading that post gave me an idea. Maybe the Zerg could have a type of unit that eats dead units' corpses and... does something with them (Converts them into energy, turns them into Banelings, etc.).

[Gold]

They need a unit that will benefit from the cliff system, so some kind of giant mantis or spider or something.
And the creep should do all these things that people have said, it should nourish life and take it away, like god, in creep form

[10-Neon]

Considering the fact that the creep feeds all Zerg units, it leads me to wonder: what does creep taste like?
I bet it is overly sweet and meaty, and melts in your mouth, probably leaving an unpleasant aftertaste. It is probably an expensive delicacy, considering the difficulty of harvesting it.

[Fenix]

How do you even come up with something like that!?!?

[10-Neon]

Well, the Zerg eat it(assuming they don't absorb the nutrients through their skin or anything), so it follows that it is edible. If a human were to eat it, they would care about the taste... the flavor.

[Zombine]

*speaking in French accent(as indicated by italics*
excuse me sir, but would you like the 1956 creep with a spinach and honey glaze?

i would recommend a nice chardonnay to accompany it.

[Gold]

i wonder if creep floats over water or under it, or jsut gets absorbed into it, like sugar.
i think its going to be very sweet tasting, so zerglings can get energy from eating it.

[Fenix]

The Creep is described as a leathery carpet. YOU CAN'T EAT LEATHER.


But maybe you could chew on it for an energy boost.....All natural Stim-Pak!

[overmind]

isnt it just the presence that heals the zerg?

[Gold]

yeah in game terms, but in real life, they would have to eat it or something

[10-Neon]

The Creep is described as a leathery carpet. YOU CAN'T EAT LEATHER.


Notice how Zerg units never attack by biting? The Zerg have sharp teeth for a reason, that reason is: to eat creep!

[Fenix]

The Creep is described as a leathery carpet. YOU CAN'T EAT LEATHER.


Notice how Zerg units never attack by biting? The Zerg have sharp teeth for a reason, that reason is: to eat creep!


Then how do the Scourge eat?

[Gold]

overlords sacks

[Major Willy]

I just want to see a big mass of Scourge slamming into and blowing up on the Creep because they were hungry.
:\

[JudasXPriest]

....And zerg air defense is kinda sucky


Plz tell me your joking. I think Zerg has the best air defence. they have Spore Colonies, which IMO are pretty good if their in large groups. Then theres Scourges, which are extremely cheap and take out big ships like Carriers, Battle Cruisers, and Arbitors in about 3 hits. then theres Overlord + Hydralisk + Defiller that takes care of the rest of the flyers pretty easily.

[mc2]

Hmm you need 5 scourges to take out a Carrier or a Battlecruiser. Provided that your scourges survives the flight :P

Yeah Zerg does have pretty good air defense, Devourer + hydralisk is deadly. Although they need more ground units that can attack air. Right now there's only 1 - hydralisks.

[Ghost]

I think the Nuke should take out creep, though. I mean hell, it makes a huge crater in the ground - surely it would cause some damage to the creep!
Oooo, and the extra effects would be nicely atmospheric.
~Pix~


And the radiation would surely prevent creep from "creeping" back in for a while.

[10-Neon]

The stuff grows in the hard radiation of space, I think it can handle a little radioactive fallout thank-you-very-much.

[Ghost]

The stuff grows in the hard radiation of space, I think it can handle a little radioactive fallout thank-you-very-much.


How about alot of it? like say... 10,000 nukes? :)

[overmind]

you ever seen anyone use 10,000 nukes?
yeah in game terms, but in real life, they would have to eat it or something
actually i was thinking becouse the creep is the zerg the presence would heal them kinda how a leader boasts moral.

[Arachanox]

I have a few suggestions about the creep. First of all, perhaps zerg units that are burrowed in the creep cannot be detected by detector units? I think it was be an interesting defense to have 100 hidden zerglings in you base.

Secondly, there should be an 'invisible' building that blends in with the creep. Allies would be able to see it dimly, but enemies would not. This invisible building would reach up and eat any land units that come beneath it, and perhaps shoot spores out above at air units. This would force players to send in a few air units over seemingly harmless areas to search for zerg creep traps.

Just an idea.

[mc2]

I have a few suggestions about the creep. First of all, perhaps zerg units that are burrowed in the creep cannot be detected by detector units? I think it was be an interesting defense to have 100 hidden zerglings in you base.

This idea is very interesting indeed. A surprised zergling attack on approaching enemies would be good to see, with devastating results (for them lol). Or infested terrans or banelings can behave as spider mines, unburrowing when enemies walk on top of them. The only problem this generates is that lurkers will overpower here. I mean if it can't be detected as long as it's on the creep, then the enemy can only penetrate the outer base's defense using air units.


Secondly, there should be an 'invisible' building that blends in with the creep. Allies would be able to see it dimly, but enemies would not. This invisible building would reach up and eat any land units that come beneath it, and perhaps shoot spores out above at air units. This would force players to send in a few air units over seemingly harmless areas to search for zerg creep traps.

Good idea too, so a cloaked/burrowed sunken colony? It would be easy for blizzard to implement this idea. It would though break the traditional characteristic of static defense in starcraft. Static defense is not suppose to be too powerful, because they want players to actually move the mouse to control the units to defend the base. This would though be a very good idea at countering early-mid game rushes which i absolubtly hate :P

[MrFrancko]

This could be a dumb idea but one i've always thought would make sense when it came to creep. Maybe enemy units should get a movement penalty while they are on it. It's def. something that could be balanced with the zergs defenses. Plus, with things like the zealots new charge ability, it could come in handy. Plus it would make things like blink seem more useful to me. It would make for some interesting strategy. It's a long shot but i'm just throwing it out there.

[Ryan]

first it hought it would be a good idea. but then i realised that it would be extremly hard to attack a zergs base. which just wouldnt be balanced.

[PrivateJoker]

This could be a dumb idea but one i've always thought would make sense when it came to creep. Maybe enemy units should get a movement penalty while they are on it. It's def. something that could be balanced with the zergs defenses. Plus, with things like the zealots new charge ability, it could come in handy. Plus it would make things like blink seem more useful to me. It would make for some interesting strategy. It's a long shot but i'm just throwing it out there.



I think some sort of biological poison that damages enemy units, and heals Zerg units would work, but it would be a creep upgrade, in the realm of replacing Sunken colonies...but wouldn't be a comprehensive creep umbrella ability, you would have to upgrade areas for a price.

[MrFrancko]

I had mentioned the slowing down of non-zerg units before. I love this idea!

Beyond that I was thinking that if enemies die on your creep they are not only absorbed into it but this would give a small life bonus to all the buildings and units that are on the creep when the unit died.

[YourShadowDani]

i personally hate upgrades that you have to buy then you have to buy AGAIN for each unit, so if that happens im ditching SC2

[capthavic]

I think it would be cool if you could make pit traps with the creep hiding the holes.

[MrFrancko]

I think it would be cool if you could make pit traps with the creep hiding the holes.


This could work but I think you'd have to either dull down the sunken colonies or get rid of them all together and replace it with the pit traps. Once again, this could be something that absorbs the unit's hit points that died and distributed it to your units around the pit.

[Malicus]

Perhaps they will simply do away with passive healing of Zerg units unless they are on the creep, isnt that how undead worked in WC3? I think the creep should get a big boost in effects. Like units sinking a bit in the spongey surface and when they die the creep grows up over the bodies and absorbs them into the creep. I think certain units should be slowed in the creep,like small walking units, like Marines, Dark Templar, Zealots. Larger units like tanks and Immortals probably wouldnt be slowed by the creep though, it isnt very thick looking afterall. It would be cool if units that borrowed in the creep could move under the creep and spring attack unwary enemies also on the creep. Sorta like the new Protoss Pylon warping. They probabaly wont do it though, because thats the protoss special ability, but it would still be cool.

Also I just thought of this, what if the Zerg had a special ability that would allow them to create a large apendage or tentacle anywhere on the creep to attack ground units. Sort of like mobile Sunken Colonies. Hell, they could downright get rid of Sunkens completely. It would just cost 75-100 minerals every time you form one, and it stays permanently there afterwards, but is able to be formed anywhere on creep controlled by you.

[lilchibikun]

i think u also mentioned faster movement? maybe it can also delay protoss and terran movement too?

[BnechbReaker]

I would like to see the role of creeps enhanced by adding either or all of the following mechanics: some of them could be available through research.

- slight reduction in speed (10-15%) to enemy ground forces traveling through creep.
- significantly boost the rate of regeneration(200-300%) of zerg ground units on the creep.
- allowing burrowed units to travel underground within the creep.
- poison organic units.
- expand through cliffs. (i.e. expansion no longer halted at edge of cliffs)

[MarineCorp]

I'm happy the way the creep is plus poisoning the organic units is sorta unbalanced and of course you will be expanding on cliffs because SC2 is being focused on terrains and heights of each platforms.
significantly boosting the regeneration of the zerg ground units is also unbalanced but only if the creep is able to regenerate much slower than your idea's percentage rate speed will make it more balanced and making the opponent's slight reduction in speed to their ground forces while on creep it will be very tedious and the zergs can easily counter the opponent's units and moving underground while burrow within the creep is a good idea for defense and tricking the opponent with all these ideas the creep will be the ultimate and the most annoying defense for the zergs but if these are separate ideas then i will except the third idea and the last idea

sorry if this comment had made you bored :P

[BnechbReaker]

yes they are separate ideas,

200-300% boost in regeneration on the creep is not over-powered in any way, zerg regeneration in sc1 was totally useless, as zergs generally have low hp and die fast. even if you boost regeneration by 100% it wouldn't make much difference.

also the boost is only on creep, and you are only going to rest your units idle on the creep if you have nothing to do with them or if you are defending your base.

[MarineCorp]

But even with low health and useless regeneration Zerg players still win and i don't find regeneration that useless when they wait and mass it's actually pretty useful in my opinion

[Smokiehunter]

Im sary but i rarely used regen

I only used it when my assalt failed and I saved a lisk or two and it didn't even get them to full health by the time i needed to attack again to make sure they stayed out of my base and they die so fast it doesn't realy mate if one dies 1 or 2 hits faster

[millions]

regeneration can be very useful actually if your in a battle you can micro your units with low hp back to your base to regenerate until next battle. you can save money very similar to ud blight in wc3 i remember when i would cycle my ghouls(melee units) like the weak ones i would send to back of the line where the range units are , so the enemy would more likely focus fire on units with higher hp or if they were focus on that ghoul they would follow it and not attack other units take more damage..... i would be so glad with creep regen if a bit more effective especially if zerg get some kind of tank unit that is not unreasonable expensive or high up the tech tree (like ultras)

[BnechbReaker]

warcraft 3 is significantly different from starcraft, micro is much more important in wc3 as you only get 40 units and footmen took 40 hits to kill each other. in starcraft you can have 300+ zerglings and they kill each other in 7 hits. it'll be insane to micro damage zerglings and pull them back, even pros don't do it, as it's not effective anyway.

zerg regen in sc1 was virtually useless, only slight usefulness was with mutalisk harassment, where during a long a sustained harassment campaign, your mutas might recover something like 30 hp from start to end. other than that it was useless

[MarineCorp]

Micro is also important in SC1 as well for saving your men which is very important

[millions]

LOL oh god no i wasnt say that about zergling in bigger battles i was thinking more about heavier units maybe lurkers hydras def ultras if i had one. Early in the game microing lings is everything when there are few units on the map micro can go a long way to take out few workers save some lings..... but creep regen would be awesome if was somewhat effective.

[BnechbReaker]

ofcourse micro is imprtant in sc1, however the the level of micro and general micro strategy required in starcraft is very different from warcraft.

warcraft is about individual unit micro where as starcraft is about group micro such as formation, high ground, wide front line and flanking

[Fenix]

If memory serves me correctly, we've had this discussion

[Joneagle_X]

I think Zerg definitely needs to utilize Creep more. It was kind of a limiting factor for their race. Protoss and Zerg were limited to a certain area, but Zerg especially so since it was so much harder to generate Creep. I mean forget encroaching on an enemy's base unless they're Zerg and you can utilize their existing Creep.

Since Protoss is going to be using their pylon power areas much more with their warp-ins, I would expect a similar utilization of the Creep for Zerg. Whether it is increased regeneration (as I would suspect) or some new type of travel (nydus worms) or even damage to enemy units.

I do not agree, however, with extending Creep beyond ridges. It often results in the enemy finding you faster.

[zeratul11]

allowing burrowed units to travel underground within the creep.

i like this idea. this will be one of the coolest thing they can implement on zerg. and drone should have the ability to burrow too. then move them underground. yah i like it very much, makes cheaps shots on zerg workers harder.

[jakjak42]

it doesn't realy mate if one dies 1 or 2 hits faster

yes it does matter cuz if every unit died two hits faster it would add up to alot of health lost and possibly effect the outcome of the battle.i think those ideas for the creep are very good. xD

[opm]

allowing burrowed units to travel underground within the creep.

i like this idea. this will be one of the coolest thing they can implement on zerg. and drone should have the ability to burrow too. then move them underground. yah i like it very much, makes cheaps shots on zerg workers harder.

best idea i've heard on the forum...by far


i'll power that ass up

[Joneagle_X]

You guys should just read the Zerg Mechanics thread.. it pretty much makes this one obselete.

[Smokiehunter]

I really don't think the creep should have any buffs other than maybe a thing to keep enemys from building on your creep like a slow down of build

[BnechbReaker]

in starcraft 1 you can't build on enemy creep unless you are also zerg

[jakjak42]

Creep that has an ability like slows down enemy units by 15 - 20 percent would be awesome i tink that your ideas are great

[Smokiehunter]

no I really think that it would make zerg bases untuchable by ground units at least. say good bye to reaper raids.

[jakjak42]

arent reapers dropped from starcraft2. but anyways u could drop the reapers in with drop ships or any other units really

[Smokiehunter]

the reaper has the pack so they can do it by them selves. It be pointless to drop in reavers with a ship when you could just fill it with marriens. Repeirs can go places marriens cant thats thier point when you take away their rades you take away their point

[jakjak42]

o sorry i thought you were talking about reavers the protoss slug, marines would be better to drop

[TheOneInPower]

The catch for the moving while burrowed in creep should be that you can only move to creep that's connected. It would be very unfair if they could cross over to an expo. But if this were the case, wouldn't the only unit to benefit be the lurker? Couldn't the rest all just walk? What would be the point of sneaking in your own base?

[BnechbReaker]

obviously they can't move out of the creep while burrowed. as for what uses besides the lurker. well it's mainly for base defense, instead of charging at enemy under fire, move beneath the enemy then un-borrow to engage directly in melee, all zerg players knows how difficult it is to defend their base against siege tanks hiding behind marines & medics without defilers' darkswarm. with the ability to move under creep, you can now move under the infantry and go directly for the tanks.

[Eye_Carumba]

in starcraft 1 you can't build on enemy creep unless you are also zerg


That's exactly how a sunken-colony-rush works! ^^ Only vs. zerg.

[carousel]

Hello there,

Appologies if these points have already been suggested before, I've scoured the threads but cant seem to find anything.

A couple of thoughts on creep:

1: Ability to grow barbed regions out of them:

These could work by designating areas which barbs would grow out of the creep. Barbs being ivy like brambles that cluster together like a bush, they could be arranged to create perimeter defenses or whatever else takes your fancy, and once placed would grow gradually. They could be intelligent and attack units which came into close range, or they could simply slow and hardly damage smaller units that would try to wade through them. Obviously they would have HP and could be destroyed. In a similar way to the supply depo submerge, the barbs could retract, or move out the way to allow friendly units to pass. This could be an automatic mechanism. Ie - if deployed around a base, they would act as a semi permeable wall, your zerg units could seamlessly move out, but enemies could not easily pass though.

You could have this ability as a researchable upgrade which automatically lines the edge of your creep, rather than micro'ing its growth areas. New sunken colonies could integrate with the barb sprawl, with extra large barbs able to grab and snare units, or in the case of smaller units like marines, pick them up and wave them about a bit.

2: Pits

Areas below creep could be dug out, and masked over with creep. When enemies moved over the regions, the ground would give way and swallow the unit into an array of nastiness below. While this would work in a similar way to a mine, its area of effect could be much larger. Areas could also be dug to create invisible trenches around perimeters.

These could be manually triggered to collapse, allowing you to wait for as many enemies as possible to move over the target area. Alternativly, one possibel mechanic would be for the areas to be automaticaly weight triggered. This would encourage you to send lighter units into a base to assualt, rather than moving in heavier tank units in. Imagine assaulting a base, your marines move into close quarters and your thor is supporting in the rear. The marines move over and dont trigegr a colapse, but the heavy thor gets caught afterwards.

From seeing some of the physics the SC2 engine will incorporate, I can't see why these couldn't be technically achievable. Gameplay issues being another story altogether. What do people think?

Cheers

Carousel

[BnechbReaker]

these ideas are a little too complex for my liking, personally i think any creep mechanic should be simple and passive, requiring no micro.

they are nice ideas none the less, just not for me

[Fenix]

I like the pit idea, the one with the Marine and Thor. Of course, it wouldn't be and instant kill, just a damaging, either damage from a fall, or a sort of acid as long as you're in. Perhaps a fall, and an Ensnare like effect.

[-LT-]

Great ideas! I especially like the pits.

[BirdofPrey]

Traps doesn't seem very zerg.

Also it shouldn't be intrinsic to the creep. Just have the zerg able to dig traps.

[-LT-]

Traps are very zerg. They're predatory creatures. They make traps.

[kuvasz]

Zerg are predatory creatures but they are not intelligent and traps require that :P

[-LT-]

They are intelligent! How much intelligence is needed to dig a hole?

[BirdofPrey]

It isn't just a hole. The intelligence is required to put the spikes in (as is a way to do it) and to conceal the hole

[Fenix]

One Zerg is an idiot. However, you will rarely find just one Zerg. They're all controlled by QoB and Cerebrates, and they're extremely smart.

[kuvasz]

They are intelligent! How much intelligence is needed to dig a hole?

Digging it doesn't require intelligence. Digging it in the right place and disguising it and keeping other Zerg from falling in it does :)

[Darth_Bane]

I think the pit idea has a really closely relaited relative. You do not know who I am talking about? well does the BLACK HOLE ring a bell? I meen atleast you could run away from the black hole this thing has an even larger radius than the black hole AND it attacks ground only as the black hole only attacked air units..hmmm....... what happened to the black hole? *thinks for a seacond* ::) Oh yea IT GOT SCRAPED! I meen this is just replica of the black hole accept only for the other class of units the ground ones ofcorse and plus you do not get to have air units usually untill teir 2 plus ground units are used far more frequently and they called the black hole overpowered!! lolz :P

[Protoss Kills Infinitely]

Hey
i reckon this is a good idea because i have noticed that whenever i play zerg i almost always die because of their defense isn't that good...i think that this would help the zerg a lot and i give it a thumbs & power up! :good: :powerup:

[moobox]

I like the idea behind your suggestions but they are a little too extreme for my complete liking.

The thorny bush idea is really cool, but it should be used as a defense for the Zerg useful for choke points and such. It should not be able to attack (unless maybe if an infantry unit walks right into it) and a reasonable amount of HP that can regenerate HP but not as fast as any other Zerg unit or building regenerates it's HP. I don't really like the idea about having an upgrade that will continuously grow this defense around the perimeter of a players creep though, it's too easy.

The pit idea is also nice, I think it should be a specific unit's ability though that can be used scarcely and an AoE that would be considered more small than large.

[Shadow Templar]

I really like the spike idea. Seriosly, isn't' the creep like a living goo that feeds the zerg buildings. I see no reason why it can be evolved further to harden into defenses. It will almost be like terraforming. I could see the spikes being sharp and cutting anything they touch, but at the same time being brittle. Maybe it can be an automatic defense? Like it an enemy steps on the creep the spikes will automatically form to defend that area of the base, impaling a few units and cutting others that walk over it? Hmm..this could open to door to a whole bunch of automatic defenses. I could see see the Terran getting mines fields. The SCV chooses an AOE and after a few seconds the mines are set. Protoss could get some sort of shield. Maybe the pylons admit a shield that reduces incoming ranged damage by like 10%? Like I said, so many options. This could be the next gen of base defense.

[moobox]

@ Shadow Templar: Definition of terraforming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming

[ShdwyTemplar]

I do like this idea a bit, but, the larger misconception here is that the Zerg are idiotic and do not contain intelligence. This is by far the opposite. The Zerg as a whole are not an "intelligent race", but, a race that is based off a unified intelligence coupled with a intelligence that is sentient. The Hydralisk is an example of this. Now, for Creep. I will take my information from a previous thread to explain Creep and its conjunction with Zerg Buildings.

The Creep
Zerg structures are effectively giant organs, making a Zerg colony a living creature. To provide the required nourishment and infrastructure, the Zerg produce a living carpet of bio-matter that invading forces have dubbed the Creep. Creep, produced by both Hatcheries and the aptly named Creep Colonies, will spread rather quickly across any fertile ground. The Hatchery is the only structure that can be built without the benefit of existing Creep since it has been genetically designed to automatically produce enough to fuel its own growth. The Creep itself is extremely durable and capable of near-instantaneous regeneration, only retreating from infested ground when a Hatchery or Colony is destroyed.

Now, with the Zerg Creep being as it is the "terraforming" would be more or less possible, but, to the extent you wish to have it would most likely cost minerals as the Creep only nourishes Zerg structures and not Rocks, Plants, Ect. To have the Creep terraform as well as Advance the Colony the Zerg would need to use a resource of some source for this. A way to make that possible would be have an upgrade that is Evolved and then purchased on a per Creep Colony basis making the Creep produced by that Colony also Terra-form the Planet Surface below it into a Jutting Shard or Bone/Mineral material at some spots. This would make it a tactical upgrade at the cost of Minerals and make sense.

Now, with the Pits a problem I see occurring is similar to this. It would not be possible unless it was a unit that performs the Pit digging as the Zerg Creep cannot magically warp in or build a pit. That being said the logistics of the pit seem a bit hard to grasp. One question I have is this. How would you make it so it is no OP as in saying 24 Marines 4 Vikings and a Thor do not walk in it? Would it fill up or would the units be consumed like the Great Pit of Carkoon where the Sarlacc is in SW? What Tier would it be and how would it be created? Would it also be intelligent akin to the living tentacle spikes of the Sunken Colony? Would it re-close after a unit has fallen into it? Would your own units fall into it if not careful?Just a few questions about that one as its not too clear how far the idea would go. Note* This idea does not seem similar to the BH as the idea is a bit open ended and up for interpretation and thus is why I would like him to go a bit further with it.

Otherwise I do enjoy this idea, although, this is similar to many ideas proposed in the Zerg Mechanic's thread. Anyways. Nice Idea.

[moobox]

Colony also Terra-form the Planet Surface below it into a Jutting Shard or Bone/Mineral material at some spots. This would make it a tactical upgrade at the cost of Minerals and make sense.


That's not terraforming, that's simply changing the molecular structure and properties of an biological object (the creep and it's surrounding earth, whether it be grass, rock, sand, etc) into something else. Simple chemical reaction. Terraforming is completely altering an areas atmosphere, mostly used for making a planet/moon/etc habitable by humans or whatever race is conducting the research (many geophysical, geochemical and astrophysical properties need to be met).

[BirdofPrey]

It would be humans since Terraforming means "to make like earth" If it were for 'toss' it would be Aiurforming or Zerusforming for the Zerg

[moobox]

:powerup: for being the only other person who knows how to use that word properly!

[BirdofPrey]

I never relalized it was a complicated term.

Terra = earth
Terran = inhabitant of earth  ( yes the faction was missnamed)
Form = to make into something

An understanding of Latin and Greek roots are impotant to knowledge of the English language

[carousel]

Thanks for the feedback folks.

With all the comments made, and taking a step back from the original ideas, I can see how they would create numerous challenges to the game-play mechanics.

With the pits, I was initially thinking that the enemy would simply drop by the equivalent of one terrain level, but the sides would be sloped enough for them to move out. Thinking about it, to implement something like this would be a nightmare. The Great Pit of Carkoon in star wars would be a good solution, simply swallowing the unit for good, and not having to worry too much about how things escape or what damage they take - though this could risk being too overpowered.

The pit could work in a smaller way:

Rathar than units get completley swalled into holes the size of command centres and dropping whole terain levels, they could simply appear to become entrenched. Siege tanks would half dissapear, and remain incepacetated for a short while, while marines would simply suddenly, sink below the surface.

Perhaps an easier implementation of pits would be to make them more like quicksand. Maybe the creep softens, eats and fills the ground below it. These thick deep areas of creep could gradually suck and slow units down as they moved over them.

With both barb and pits, I imagined them to be generated simply by the creep itself, no additional units would be required to dig etc. Perhaps a cerebrate like building would be built on the creep with the specific role of 'controlling it' and providing a variety of creep upgrades.

Thanks for the comments!

Carousel

[Shadow Templar]

well, thats the last time I use the word terraform....

Anyways, what I meant with that was forming the creep into the shapes needed. I could even be a sunken colony upgrade. Instead of 1 huge spike, it could be a wall of spikes that last until teh next way is formed. That would bring a new meaning to the word creep colony.

The pit idea also sounds nice. The terran better watch out, zerg could easily be more defensive. I wish I could say the same for the Protoss.....

[BirdofPrey]

Well I always thought that if the put walls in SC then Zerg would get walls of spikes that would grow from the creep wherever you chose and would retract when units needed to pass, Terrans would build walss then have sections upgraded into gates ala AoE and protoss would just be able to generate an energy barrier in the psimatrix that allies can pass through

[Anansi_Tragoudia]

Really great ideas.

Perhaps for the spikes/barbs idea, Creep Colonies could have an additional evolution like a Sea Anemone, that has sensitive spikes that grow in its own area. Not an actual structure, but a field of barbs. They wouldn't need to retract because the zerg could be immune to it (think of Clown Fish [Finding Nemo lol]). That type of defensive ability would fit in well with the Creep being a living organ.

I really like the quicksand idea. Maybe that could be produced by drones too? Work like an ensnare ability, slowing units. When you mentioned the 'sinking idea' they could apply the damage bonus of units at a lower elevation receive.

[NateSMZ]

I was thinking that it would be interesting if Creep had more properties than just being a limiting factor on Zerg expansion. Protoss pylons act similarly, but they also give a benefit (supply) while Creep doesn't really do anything beneficial... other than if you like the aesthetics for some reason.

Some potential thoughts I had for ways Creep could be useful:

1. Act as a detector versus ground units.
No matter how well a creature is hiding, if it's standing ankle deep in Creep, the Zerg should know about it, seeing as the Creep is alive and linked to aware beings.

OR

2. Slow enemy ground units.
Once again, the creep is alive. I can easily imagine it working as an entangling force against non-hovering ground units.

AND

3. As an upgrade, boost regeneration rates.
Why not allow an upgrade so that Creep boosts building regen rates and increases unit regen rates while they are on the Creep?

Other ideas? Feedback?

[BnechbReaker]

the first idea is very good, i haven seen it suggested before.

the other 2 ideas have been discussed countless number of times, i definitely think the creep should have some other function apart from allowing buildings to be built, we just have to see what blizzard will come up with.

[NateSMZ]

sorry, the first idea was really the only new one I had, I figured I'd throw in the other two just to get them out of the way and since they're on the same tangent

[Lenga]

the first idea leaves DT and ghosts against the zerg useless

[NateSMZ]

at least for base strikes, yes

[Eagle]

What if creep acts like slow poison? I mean, at high tier, enemy units inside the creep slowly loses hp 'till reach 1 (like plague, but waaaay more slowly)
Or inside the creep, small units get +1 to armor (or to attack, or to something, lol)

[Recon]

that would be king of cheap.some attacks take time to kill zerg bases so it wouldnt be fare if an entire army is almost dead before they even start there attack on a zerg base. it sure would make zerg players feel safer though. letting it detect enemy units dont quite work either because if there standing on the creep then there close enough to a base that you can see them anyways. and to be able to detect cloaked units is an unfare advantage. the regeneration boost i like how ever. for a while my brother and i always thought that zerg units regenerated faster if you burrow them in the creep but it turned out to not be true. :( so it would be nice to have units regenerate faster but i think they should have to be burrowed in the creep to do so.

[NateSMZ]

good idea about the burrowing

and what's unfair about detecting cloaked ground units? Protoss get to mass produce warriors anywhere they want on the map - Terrans get to pick up their bases and fly away... AND now they get to fortify their bases thru the buildings themselves.... why not give the Zerg bases an interesting beneficial dynamic too?

[Recon]

well it would be a little useless. zerg have flying detectors that also count for unit control. whats the point of giving zerg something that usually has detectors flying around anyways. if you ask me, if zerg leave there base open from overlords and you can slip a cloaked unit past them then you deserve to do what ever your in there for. its just my opinion but i think it wouldnt be to usefull of a benefit and a little cheap. i say find another way to give zerg a dynamic benefit.

[EonMaster]

I think creep should increase regeneration of all allied zerg units. That means both the ones who created it but also ones that are allies in b-net.

The ability to slow units just doesn't seem like happening since it would either be too powewrful or not useful

[NateSMZ]

yeah, the Overlords would make it kinda redundant... but of course - we don't know what the Zerg will be like yet either... Cerebrates are gone... who knows what the zerg roster will look like? =P

[-LT-]

1. Act as a detector versus ground units.
No matter how well a creature is hiding, if it's standing ankle deep in Creep, the Zerg should know about it, seeing as the Creep is alive and linked to aware beings.
This is a good idea, but it's too powerfull. It would make ghosts and Dark Templars
useless against Zerg.


2. Slow enemy ground units.
Once again, the creep is alive. I can easily imagine it working as an entangling force against non-hovering ground units.
This is a good idea and I think it should be in the game. Just not slow them
down too much.


3. As an upgrade, boost regeneration rates.
Why not allow an upgrade so that Creep boosts building regen rates and increases unit regen rates while they are on the Creep?
This is yet another excellent idea and it shold be in the game. I always thought that
zerg units regenerate faster when I started playing starcraft.

[BnechbReaker]

idea one is not too powerful, it won't make them useless against zerg, they can still fight without cloak, also it's only on creep, the whole map is not only covered by creep

[Lenga]

yeah, but the dt are an offensive force, not a defensice and worker rushes with the dt become useless this way

[coreyb]

Yeah first one is good! , second ain't to bad but third ain't good! , but nice idea's and well said there Nate! , and another one could be that any zerg allied unit's on creep heal's 50% faster and when upgraded it's 100% or 200% more faster! :P and also that the creep can crawl down hill's but not ground and up hill's! :P , make it more realasistic oh and it could also zerg allied unit's have faster ground movement because I can imagine a mutalisk slideing along creep alot eaiser then on ground or metal!

[BnechbReaker]

here are some of my creep ideas from way long time ago:


I would like to see the role of creeps enhanced by adding either or all of the following mechanics: some of them could be available through research.

- slight reduction in speed (10-15%) to enemy ground forces traveling through creep.
- significantly boost the rate of regeneration(200-300%) of zerg ground units on the creep.
- allowing burrowed units to travel underground within the creep.
- poison organic units.
- expand through cliffs. (i.e. expansion no longer halted at edge of cliffs)

[kuvasz]

I like the speed reduction, the spread through cliffs but especially the move while burrowed. I can imagine the creep killing organic things in the soil making it softer and Zerg could claw their way underground :)

But I think the poison and the boost would make it imbalanced. It would result in exploiting it by creating hatcheries at key points just to heal Zerg. Plus it would be very hard to take down a base, you'd need to lure them off the creep otherwise you wouldn't stand a chance with a similar army (in size).

[BnechbReaker]

one of the better suggestion i've heard for creep mechanic is allowing it to slowly absorb a small % of organic units that was killed on the creep and turn them into resources.

[kuvasz]

I don't think Zerg should gain so immediate advantages from corpses, they're not the Undead. But I can imagine something like the creep darkening after the amount of units killed on it and it would provide a minimal (like 2%/killed organic unit) healing effect on that patch.

[BnechbReaker]

they don't get immediate advantage, it's a passive ability of the creep. any fallen organic unit on the creep get slowly turned into resources. the process is slow and the amount of resources a small % of the unit's original cost.

[coreyb]

Yeah like 10%-20% , sound's like the creep is popular! :P

[EonMaster]

the resoure idea is good, but I like the regeneration ability better since it will help the zerg instantly after a failed attack on their base

[BnechbReaker]

yeah the regen rate in sc1 is too slow, it's hardly of any use

[NateSMZ]

good thoughts ppl

also, I don't think cloak detection would be overpowered - cause as somebody mentioned... Zerg get it for free already - it is redundant right now tho... If Overlords are still in, then that would be a stupid addition... if they aren't - I think it would be cool, and pretty much provide the same dynamic.

[timedragon888]

How will the creep regenerate the zerg? It's ok in-game, but logically speaking, how does it? Assuming a hydralisk has one of its arms chopped off or something. Does it plant its arm into the creep and let it grow back or something? That's creepy.

[EonMaster]

The creep could act as a healing agent and when it covers the wound of a zerg, it would help the wound heal faster

[Recon]

i still gotta say that the creep being a detector is still cheap. it makes dark templar and other cloaked units useless like what was said on the first page. they all ready have flying detectors surrounding there base. if they dont use em to there advantage then thats there fault and will get hit hard for it. the creep being a detector just lets zerg players get a little to comfortable.

something i thought of is that were all talking about creep going down cliffs and stuff. well what if most zerg units were able to crawl up and down cliffs when the creep is one it? we have all seen or heard of hydralisks and lurkers crawling up and down things. and im sure zergling could do it to. reapers got jetpacks and stalkers can blink so it would be nice for zerg to run on cliffs.

[EonMaster]

sweet idea

That would add balance to the game, giving all 3 units a way to cross previously uncrossable terrain

[NateSMZ]

How will the creep regenerate the zerg? It's ok in-game, but logically speaking, how does it? Assuming a hydralisk has one of its arms chopped off or something. Does it plant its arm into the creep and let it grow back or something? That's creepy.

my thought was that basically it provides them with concentrated nutrients which speeds their own natural healing

[BirdofPrey]

I like the idea of regeneration because the base rat is so low and the slowing effect also sounds great but is probably necessary and would be a little overpowered potential. As for the detection thing it isn't really needed because a zerg player will have so many overlords

[Wraithwatch]

one of the better suggestion i've heard for creep mechanic is allowing it to slowly absorb a small % of organic units that was killed on the creep and turn them into resources.


This is by far my favorite, not too far unbalancing. As for the first post, I think the detector thing could work, but make it like the new sensor tower thingie for the terran, show little red exclamation points where the enemy is, of course I also agree that any competant zerg player has several overlords patrolling their base at all times... As for the slow down targets, that could work as well, but it does seem a bit powerful in my opinion. Which leads me to the fact that I don't like the poison idea at all. It's just too powerful, what other race has something that damages units that extensivly for so cheap? I mean c'mon, marines only have 40 hp, and to be wandering around a massive zerg base in SP or MP just seems cruel. As for regen, I like the burrowed version better. Makes more sense in my opinion.

[BirdofPrey]

one of the better suggestion I've heard for creep mechanic is allowing it to slowly absorb a small % of organic units that was killed on the creep and turn them into resources.
I love this idea. I think each race should have some way of reclaiming resources. Terrans get salvage from buildings and they should also be able to gather minerals for the pieces of destroyed mechanical units. The zerg should be able to absorb minerals directly through creep from dead biological units and buildings (yes minerals from base destruction) for balance they would not gather if they lose all of the hatchures/lair/hives on that blotch of creep. The protoss would be able to slowly suck minerals off units in their psi grid and would be able to unwarp units and buildings for 50% minerals

[coreyb]

How will the creep regenerate the zerg? It's ok in-game, but logically speaking, how does it? Assuming a hydralisk has one of its arms chopped off or something. Does it plant its arm into the creep and let it grow back or something? That's creepy.
It's creepy because it's creep! ;) and probebly has little tentacle's that put's juice or like a liquid to heal the zerg unit alot faster or something! :)

[BirdofPrey]

What they don't tell you is that creep is the core ingredient in neosporin

[coreyb]

Sorry bird of prey but what is neosporin? , the creep is the core ingrediant for the zerg so they can build structure's on it and the only building that doesn't need to be on creep is the hatchary!

[BirdofPrey]

Antibacterial cream that the makers claim reduces the appearance of scars and shortens healing time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neosporin

[Wraithwatch]

http://www.ebris.com/pix/neosporin_pain.jpg

Voila! Anti-biotic cream. You have never heard of this? You live one sheltered life. Or you somewhere other than America. In which case you are forgivin. :thumbup:

[coreyb]

Ahk thank's for that fella's , I might get some for when my stitche's get taken out! :)

[BnechbReaker]

it make sense for the creep to regen because it contains a lot of chemicals and nutrients that would heal and replenish zergs metabolisms

[coreyb]

it make sense for the creep to regen because it contains a lot of chemicals and nutrients that would heal and replenish zergs metabolisms
Yeah man that's pritty well said! , and the creep is a very big thing for zerg , just thinka bout it! how some land is so imortant to zerg! :P

[EonMaster]

The creep is essential to the zerg, it has to do something rather than just let the zerg build on it, and regen seems the be the fairest way without overpowering it

[BnechbReaker]

it should definitely increase regen, in sc1 regen was too slow to be any use

[Gasmaskguy]

i totally support the increased regeneration on creep! Some ideas suggests that enemy units get slower/takes damage etc. and they are all good ideas, but the creep power should give a + to the zerg instead of giving a - to the opponent. That way more people are happy. ;D

[EonMaster]

yup, burying the zerg units was the only way they could really regain any life back since the enemy couldn't attack them. Even then it took F...O...R...E...V...E...R!

[BnechbReaker]

still there are people who call me a noob for saying regen is not useful, i wonder why...

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2102.msg90087#msg90087

[EonMaster]

LOL! It has very little use but can help between battles and it is much worse that the terrans medic and SCV healing abilities and even the protoss sheild regereation is faster than the zergs.

[coreyb]

still there are people who call me a noob for saying regen is not useful, i wonder why...

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2102.msg90087#msg90087
Lol that's a bit stupid! , it's also just Your oppinion!

[BnechbReaker]

... umm your post confuses me, who's side are you on?

[EonMaster]

coreyb's or mine

if you mean mine, I'm on your side, the regeneration is pretty much useless unless your opponent decides to allow you to several minutes to rebuild before the next attack. (try finding someone like that on b-net)

[BnechbReaker]

it was addressed to coreyb, thanks for supporting me :powerup:

[coreyb]

... umm your post confuses me, who's side are you on?
I am on Your's to reaker.

[BnechbReaker]

then you have posted in the wrong thread


Lol that's a bit stupid! , it's also just Your oppinion!

should have been posted in the other thread has "you" refers to the guy in the other thread right? but he is not here so i assume "you" refers to me

[LxMike]

I agree that creep regeneration is great, and could became overpower , so I suggest any special creep effect should be only on the Hive's creep area (have a different color to identified them), since most people don't build more then 2 Hive, that would kinda balance it

[Gasmaskguy]

good idea, but i would like it if all hatcherys had that special creep around them too.
(especially since you never build more than ONE hive :P)
Then the only non-increasing creep would be the creep spread by creep colonies.

btw, welcome LxMike! I hope you will have good discussions during your visits!

[EonMaster]

who says never build more than one hive?

I tried to get 10 HIVE in b-net, but my town got destroyed while they were developing :(

my hydralisks just couldn't stand up to his mutalisks ( I think he was stacking)

[BnechbReaker]

if only you had plague, that would teach the stacker a lesson

[Gasmaskguy]

who says never build more than one hive?


common sence. Besides from the extra hp you dont get squat. And instead of getting extra hp, you should get some units.

[BnechbReaker]

the only reason to build more than one hive is if your opponent is a protoss and he's using the reaver-sair strategy. in that case you should have a spare hive in case one oh them gets dropped and destroyed, basically the extra hive protects your tech

[Lenga]

every hatchery upgrade should cover a bigger area and/or better healing

[ItzaHexGor]

- slight reduction in speed (10-15%) to enemy ground forces traveling through creep.
I like that idea. It give the impression of the enemy units having to half wade through this sticky goo... which wouldn't be very pleasant for anyone. Also.... Reapers should count as hovering units, at least when they're moving, because of their jump packs. They wouldn't be affected by the Creep speed reduction because they jet pack over the top.

- significantly boost the rate of regeneration(200-300%) of zerg ground units on the creep.
This would also work well with the slowing down idea. It would give Zerg a much bigger advantage when defending, which is awesome because they are mainly an offensive team.

- allowing burrowed units to travel underground within the creep.
Not too suer about this one. I think that Zerg units should wither be able to move while Burrowed or not.

- poison organic units.
This is also going a bit too far I reckon. The Slowing and the Regeneration are good but the Creep should damage enemies.

- expand through cliffs. (i.e. expansion no longer halted at edge of cliffs)
This could be a problem if the enemy hasn't discovered your base yet, but it would also be great for expanding.

[Gasmaskguy]

yeah, that is what it should do. I hope they make something similar to that.

*EDIT*what the heck here is a :powerup:

[Larvitar]

Maybe burrowed Zerg units can move in the creep. If they reach the edge of the creep then they come out unburrowed, since creep is so thick. This would make Zerg players think twice about not allowing the sunkens to have detector support. Of course, the Zerg units cannot attack while burrowed, or even half burrowed. But if 16 Zerglings suddenly emerged around a sunken that would be the Zerg player's fault for not seeing that coming sooner.

I always thought that creep was anti-terran and protoss since a really crazy player could cover a expansion with a lot of creep and cause it to take around 5 minutes to reside. If he did that, you would not be able to build your nexus/CC at the ideal location or worst of all, unable to build your resource gathering building near the resource node. Of course, that would backfire against Zerg players. They would just build sunkens and spores very easily since there would be a lot of creep.

[EonMaster]

The ability to move in the creep does sound like a strategy fitting for the zerg, but only small units like the zergling should be able to movve in it since the creep isn't too deep.

[NateSMZ]

I'm sorry, I should have searched first... but shouldn't this be merged with this:

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1767.0

?? *looks bashful*

[LxMike]

1 personally think the creep give away the position of a base easily since they are all linked to a hatcheryI So you recon troupe can see the creep without been detected.

[coalescence]

Maybe burrowed Zerg units can move in the creep. If they reach the edge of the creep then they come out unburrowed, since creep is so thick. This would make Zerg players think twice about not allowing the sunkens to have detector support. Of course, the Zerg units cannot attack while burrowed, or even half burrowed. But if 16 Zerglings suddenly emerged around a sunken that would be the Zerg player's fault for not seeing that coming sooner.


Nothing to add, I like the idea very much! rarely do this: :powerup:

[BnechbReaker]

it's alright nate, that thread was from a long time ago

[thrif]

You should be able to see the unit, but not attack it. As like, the creep can "feel" the unit, but not "detect" it. That would make it easier to fight off DT/Ghosts, since you can be able to spot them, but not easy enough that you won't need detectors. A kind of semi-detect. ;]

[BirdofPrey]

How can the creep feel a unit but not detect it? Touch is a type of detection.

[EonMaster]

Like it, it would make ghost easier to detect before a nuke turns you base into hell's reincarnation.

[Larvitar]

So nukes become useless against Zerg if there is creep? How about the enemy showing up on the minimap but not on the screen? Like red dot on the minimap screen (symbolises ghost unit, not nuke dot) but you don't know where the ghost actually is?

[EonMaster]

The creep detector just shows you there is somebody there, but you woldn't be able to attack them because you still can't see them. You would still need to have a colony or overlord detect them to attack.

[Larvitar]

Yeah like my idea.

Since you are so into it could you comment on it? Please!?!

[BnechbReaker]

i like the idea because i suggested burrowed movement on creep ages ago.

[EonMaster]

Yeah like my idea.

Since you are so into it could you comment on it? Please!?!


The idea is pretty good. Everyone knows how annoying ghosts are when you don't have effective anti cloaking units or buildings to find them before the inescapable nuke arrives in all its fiery glory. The creep idea would make it easier for the zerg to find these warriors of destruction by indicating to the player where a ghost or other cloaked ground unit is by either showing them on the screen in that semitransparent look or showing where they are on the minimap. Another way would be to show an onscreen warning that there is an invisible unit in the area and point to the general direction.

This idea would be logical for a zerg mechanic but may be a little too powerful. As long as it doesn't act as a fully fledged detector, it should be workable into the game as a fair ability for the zerg.

[Lenga]

what about some sort of creep pit, 50 minerals where a unit falls in and gets out in 10 seconds

[Lipton]

That would make creep overpowered, I don't think creep was only intended to effect Toss and Terran by preventing them to build there.

Of that list this is the only one I liked:

- expand through cliffs. (i.e. expansion no longer halted at edge of cliffs)

[BirdofPrey]

Even if it does not expand up or down cliffs it should at least expand up and down ramps

[Lenga]

maybe creep can remove some effects as irridate or parasite, or at least weaken them

[ItzaHexGor]

Creep should definitely move up and down ramps, because it is all flat ground, but turns into a steady incline. Creep expanding through cliffs would be a great way of doing it without making it imbalanced like how the Creep moving down cliffs, but not up cliffs would. It would also make the Creep appear to be more of a living super-organism as opposed to, if it was able to fall down cliffs but not grow up, a liquid. Removing Irradiate or Parasite, or even just reducing it does not sit well for me. I don't see how the Creep would physically remove effects like these from Zerg units.

[Lenga]

by absorbing it, every creep part could remove/reduce one effect, but than it turns green and cant be used like that no more

[CaptainPicard]

Creep in SC1 could move down cliffs but not up them? I don't think I ever noticed that!

[Lenga]

actually it cant

[ekulio]

I like the idea of creep moving up and down cliffs, I don't see how that's overpowered. Also it makes no sense that it could go down the cliffs and not up them, since the fluids need to flow both directions anyway. It should definately move up and down ramps though.

About the only idea I like for creep is giving units a regen boost when burrowed in it. The downside is then what about flying units or ultralisks that can't burrow? how do they heal? And if lurkers are still in then it would be really OP for them.

I'm really worried about the appearance of creep in the game more than it's function. in the original it was just an ugly purple carpet..I wonder what it will look like for SC2. The only thing I can imagine looking ok is a huge mess of tentacles going this way and that, with the terrain still visible between the tentacles (that would look so cool climbing up and down cliffs) but I can also see how a texture like that would easily become distracting and hard to look at.

[ItzaHexGor]

First of all, it is not the thought of Creep being able to go up and down cliffs that is overpowered, it is if Creep was only able to go down but not up. Also, when you said

Also it makes no sense that it could go down the cliffs and not up them, since the fluids need to flow both directions anyway.

This is blatantly not true. Try setting up this experiment sometime:

| __________
V |
____________|
|
_|

And pour the water (or any kind of fluid, honey would probably have the most Creep-like texture) where the arrow is. As you will find, the fluid will not flow up the cliff!!! It will only flow down, which if implemented into StarCraft2, would be unbalanced.
Also, Zerg units already regenerate slowly, so the Ultralisk would not have to be burrowed to heal. And the regeneration advantage to Lurkers would only occur when it is in your base, defending. Units that are defending usually have full health to begin with, and if the unit is being attacked, I doubt that the regeneration rate will affect much.
The Creep won't be like tentacles or anything, it'll probably just be like how it was in StarCraft1, where it was basically just a off-color coloring of the affected area.

[ekulio]

Also, when you said

Also it makes no sense that it could go down the cliffs and not up them, since the fluids need to flow both directions anyway.

This is blatantly not true.

Don't be a smart aleck with me. I know water doesn't flow up. Creep isn't a liquid though. Creep is biological matter that provides nourishment to zerg structures. Last time I checked my blood flows up and doesn't get trapped in my feet. Also I'm *fairly certain* water starts in the roots of plants and flows up to the top. Creep, I'm sure, requires circulation just like any living organism that big, I highly doubt the fluids only flow one direction.

How is creep being able to go up cliffs overpowered? It makes no sense from a gameplay sense that it shouldn't, especially if it can go down cliffs.

I really don't like the idea of the creep just being some ugly purple carpet again. I want to see something that looks more reasonable. And how can you say it won't be tentacles or anything? You don't know that, quit making assumptions. Now that I think of it, vines or creepers (See? CREEPers) would probably be a better comparison than tentacles.

Lastly, I know that zerg units will regenerate automatically, I was just saying I like the idea of having a boost to their regeneration while burrowed in creep.

[Larvitar]

I suppose when creep flows up the cliff you can build structures there and the enemy can't. How nice.

Honestly, Zerg have to be offensive. They don't really have time to sit at home, burrow and wait for the enemy to come by. It's fatal, because protoss and terran have great crowd control units at tier 2 around there. Hence, regeneration while burrowed in creep is almost redundant.

Zerg had to harass Terran a lot to win the game, and zerg have to smash more high templars than dragoons to win the game. Even if high templar's psionic storm ability didn't come back, you think Zerglings stand a chance against 6 Zealots and 2 Colossi? No time to defend against those units, you have to prevent them from even coming out.

Terran have siege tanks and when they get higher tech, it's banshee time. You can't waste time sitting in your base when a banshee pops out. 12 banshees might slaughter hundreds of hydralisk. There is no time to waste. The zerg just can't let those units come out. You have to harass them.

Zerg is all about speed. What is the point of speed if you waste it sitting in your base doing nothing? Burrowing in creep to boost regeneration would be redundant, once Zerg units go out, there's no telling how many would actually survive the intial assault to come back with hp that is feasible for regeneration.

In SC1, zealots had leg upgrade at tier 2/2.5. But Zerglings and Hydralisk got it at tier 1. This only reinforces the fact that Zerg are meant for speeding rushing. The Zerg army comprises of very fast units to increase chances of first strike. First strike to ensure the opponent waste time repairing and rebuilding units to defend. If the Zerg can slow down teching, they win much more easily. If you camp in your base, you will realise that when the enemy attacks you, you are going to get slaughtered by the AoE/Crowd control units.


Bonus 200 minerals for a Reply of Relative Interest

[Namor]

Larvitars Right... not only Zerg but the whole SC game is about speed....
To give blight the ability to slow down enemy units is not a good idea... that's just to much WC3... SC is raid raid counter fast fast fast!!!

But the idea of blight expanding over cliffs and let borrowed zerg units move under the tarrain is really nice... especially since protoss has the warp-in.

[ItzaHexGor]

Don't be a smart aleck with me. I know water doesn't flow up. Creep isn't a liquid though. Creep is biological matter that provides nourishment to zerg structures. Last time I checked my blood flows up and doesn't get trapped in my feet. Also I'm *fairly certain* water starts in the roots of plants and flows up to the top. Creep, I'm sure, requires circulation just like any living organism that big, I highly doubt the fluids only flow one direction.

I'm not being a *smart aleck* to you, I am showing you that this simply cannot happen if the creep is a fluid, like you said in your original statement, being:

Also it makes no sense that it could go down the cliffs and not up them, since the fluids need to flow both directions anyway.

Also, the reason that blood does not pool at your feet, it because the whole circulatory system is pressurized and uses a pump (the heart). The heart muscles contract, to push blood into arteries, and relax, to allow the blood from veins to flow back into the heart so that it can then be forced into the arteries again. A similar thing happens with trees and plants, except it relies more on evaporation and surface tension. The xylem tissue in a plant is basically an extremely thin straw which naturally draws water from the roots, through the stem and to the leaves/flowers/etc. The water that is already in the leaves/flowers/stem/etc, will inevitably evaporate, which will cause the xylem to draw up more water. Stuff like this can only happen inside organisms and structures, and cannot possibly happen with the Creep on an open surface.

How is creep being able to go up cliffs overpowered? It makes no sense from a gameplay sense that it shouldn't, especially if it can go down cliffs.

I was not saying that Creep going up and down cliffs is overpowered. It is when Creep can only go down cliffs, but not up that is overpowered, because it allows players to create maps that would either give a huge advantage to Zerg (if they start on top of a mountain) or a huge disadvantage to Zerg (if they start in a valley/gorge).

I really don't like the idea of the creep just being some ugly purple carpet again. I want to see something that looks more reasonable. And how can you say it won't be tentacles or anything? You don't know that, quit making assumptions. Now that I think of it, vines or creepers (See? CREEPers) would probably be a better comparison than tentacles.

The Creep in StarCraft1 and BroodWar, enable the Zerg to morph into structures by changing an area of ground so that it is able to support the structure being built. It basically acts like how water acts for plants. The water is essential to the plant's growth, and it is impossible for a plant to grow in a completely dry environment. How would tentacles or vines achieve this? If anything there would need to be creep below the vines, so that the vines are able to live so that the buildings are able to live. Also, with your comparison of creepers, maybe you can only get one Drone or Reapers are actually apes. The Creep is called 'Creep' because that's how it acts. It 'creeps' out from the Colonies and Hatcheries/Lairs/Hives that produce it. Most Zerg units are named by how they act, not by what they are. Lurkers lurk, Defilers defile, Guardians guard.

Lastly, I know that zerg units will regenerate automatically, I was just saying I like the idea of having a boost to their regeneration while burrowed in creep.

As people have already said, Zerg are an offensive team. They should not get bonuses from remaining on their Creep, because that would encourage the player to defend instead of attack.


Bonus 200 minerals for a Reply of Relative Interest

[GrahamTastic]

I really like the 'moving underground on creep' one. That would be a neat mechanic, especially if you made a trail of creep with colonies to a strategic place. Of course, this IS sort of similar to Phase Prisms and Nydus Worms...

[Overling]

Well, creep is like an algae's goo, a nourishment/protection substance. It is very much like an algae's goo.

[Fo®Saken]

Why this idea?

The regeneration of health/shielding has always played an important role in Starcraft 1 and Starcraft BroodWars. In Starcraft 2 this idea is expanded, but as far as we know that only applies for the Protoss. (with that, of course, I mean the new shielding system) The Terran and Zerg don’t get anything.

Also, the battles seem to get a lot longer in Starcraft 2. With more high tier units added, more HP for your units and even more deadly abilities you will want your units to last longer, especially the easy to kill Zerg units.

The third reason for this one is the almost useless regeneration ability for the Zerg. They are inexpensive cannon fodder and often their units don’t last long. A slow regeneration process isn’t their thing and it doesn’t work to well… On its own.

Last of the reasons is that Creep is kind of boring. It does nothing, except enabling the Zerg to grow their buildings on it. With this you will be able to do a lot more with Creep.

_________________________________________________

What is it?

The idea is to let Zerg units consume Creep to let them regenerate a lot faster. When they stand on a certain kind of Creep, they will automatically start to consume it and regain HP. Zerg buildings will regenerate faster when they are near the special Creep, which I will call Nutritious Creep from now on.

_________________________________________________

How will this be produced?

We all know the Creep Colonies and the way they are upgraded into Sunken Colonies or Spore Colonies. For this idea a new upgrade will be added: The Nutri Colony. This new “building” will start producing Nutritious Creep when it is made. It will grow around the Colony just like normal Creep. However, it will only be in a small radius, about as large as the Protoss Shield Battery used to have.

_________________________________________________

How does it work?

You will have to research the Nutri Colony at your Evolution Chamber just like any other Creep Colony upgrade, but this one will only be available at Hive level. (which makes this a high tier upgrade) This is needed for balance: since Zerg units are weak and don’t cost as much, a Zerg player always has a disadvantage in late game, since the other two races are stronger at that point. This gives the Zerg a way to hold on a little longer.

Once upgraded all Creep Colonies will be able to evolve into Nutri Colonies and all Zerg Ground units will gain the passive ability to consume Creep. This will automatically be used when they are at low HP and near a Nutritious Creep patch.

A Zerg building in the radius of a Nutri Colony will use the Nutritious Creep automatically to, so when you want it to keep it for your units you will have to keep other buildings away from them. On the other hand, placing Spore/Sunken Colonies in the radius creates some new defensive capabilities. This gives the player some new interesting tactical decisions to make.

When a Nutritious Creep patch is used up you will have to wait for it to grow back, but you can also attach an additional Drone to let it grow back at the same rate it is eaten. This will also be an upgrade. When you attach the additional drone the Colony will grow taller and Zerg Flyers will be able to eat the Nutritious Creep to, but the radius will stay the same.

_________________________________________________

What are the statistics?

These are very important, until more is known about the new Protoss shielding system and possible changes in the Terran repair system, (by SCV’s) discussing this is practically useless. What I can point out already is that this of course will not be a cheap upgrade. You will require a Hive, an additional upgrade at the Evolution Chamber and the evolution itself at a new Creep Colony. To get the most out if it you will even have to sacrifice an additional Drone, but this is not required.

_________________________________________________

That’s about it for now.

If you have read all of this patiently, I thank you for that. I’ve put some time on thinking of this, and now it’s done. The idea of adding an additional Drone is something I came up with during the typing of this one, so it isn’t very detailed. Sorry for that, but I can’t do everything at once you know. ;)

I will be adding more or deleting information later on. I will do this after I heard some comment on this one. So, what do you guys think of this one?

:gossip: :gossip:


Bonus 400 minerals for a Reply of Significant Interest

[ItzaHexGor]

I think that there should be as few ways of encouraging the Zerg player to stay on his or her own Creep as possible. They are meant to be a solely offensive team, so if anything they should regenerate slower on Creep, so that they are encouraged to always be on the attack. Obviously this won't happen, but I am just simplifying for the point of clarity. Regeneration was a fine way of replenishing Zerg's health, even if it was a bit slow. My suggestion for how the new regeneration would work would be the following. As we know, in StarCraft2, the Protoss shields do not regenerate directly after finishing the combat, but instead have a short delay before an extremely fast regeneration rate. My idea would be that they Zerg would get the opposite of this. When the Zerg unit has finished combat, it should immediately get an extremely quick regeneration rate for a couple of seconds, say anywhere between 2 and 10 seconds, before it levels out to the usual rate of regeneration. This would encourage the Zerg player to keep attacking, even with injured units, so that their units would be able to heal faster afterwards. There is a risk that the injured units would easily be killed, but if they manage to avoid any direct damage throughout the fight, then it would increase their health dramatically.

[StarCraft144000]

Just put w/e unit underground and let them heal faster

[ItzaHexGor]

That still encourages the Zerg player to sit in their base, because they get bonus's from being Burrowed on their creep. My way of doing the increased regeneration would make the Zerg army extremely aggressive and hostile, like how they should be. Even if they are just wanting to health a few injured units, then they would still go out in search of something to attack.

[10-Neon]

I just merged 4-ish creep-related threads together. I am stickying them so that we can keep all of this creepiness in one place.

[EonMaster]

4 threads into one? That has to be a sc2forum record!

[Gah345]

im not big on units moving underground through creep.That would require a whole new underground vision system to see where they are. its a huge advantage for players who have a large zerg base, they can go anywhere unharmed! plus it take the same role as the nydus worm. There really is no need. and it play protects them from air fire.

as for slowing down units, i understand where people are coming from when they say that SC is about speed and that slowing units down would not be fair, but it does make sense. Can you imagine walking through a city thats completely covered in feet of a sticky fleshy purple thing?

[serg]

Maybe this creep ability's can be an upgrade in the hatchery. a little antirush,the upgraded creep make enemy units slower (not very much) and ally units heals faster.

[lichking]

We talked about healing units and slowing down enemy units on creep before. I dont really like the idea because it is a really hard thing to balance, considering zerg bases are fairly hard to take down already, unless the effects are miniscule, then I think its not a great idea.

THe scaling idea is excellent and should definately be implemented!

[BirdofPrey]

I like the idea of nukes and planet crackers removing creep although if the colonies aren't destroyed the creep would regenerate quickly so it would only be effective if the nuke removes creep colonies as well.

[EonMaster]

I like the idea of creep being able to scale walls. It would allow the zerg to expand a bit easier, since their bases expand slower than the other two, and is would be an effective counter to the colossus's and reaper's ability to cross terrain.

It would also give the zerg a better defence by being able to move units on cliffs to bombard the enemy below when their base is under attack. Making defending easier with less casualties. This would work great for bases set up at chokepoints on the map as it allows the zerg to freely move their units around in a battle to hold the choke point.

[ShdwyTemplar]

I would take the Creep scaling walls one further by allowing the Zerg to build on Walls... Ya.. I can imagine it now.

[EonMaster]

What would be an iteresting concept. I would build sunkerns and spore colonies on the wall to protect them from enemy melee troops.

[ItzaHexGor]

Building units on walls wouldn't make much sense at all. It would be like trees growing on a vertical cliff. I know that you do see some trees that have grown like that, but they are very fragile and never reach their full potential. Unless there was a specific building that was supposed to be built on a wall, I don't think it would work. Interesting concept though.

[Gah345]

What if zerg units ONLY healed when on the Creep

i kno i kno, zerg units have always healed no matter where, but this is a new game!

it makes sense! the Creep carries though it the nutrients for all its Zerg buildings and units

but then what to do about flyers? i dunno, they could pull their nutrients from some gaseous cloud that hangs over the Creep and also heal when over creep.

[Gasmaskguy]

That would make zerg players hide in their bases. They are supposed to be offensive, more or less.
They are also superstrong breeded beasts, so it makes sense that they can regenerate without standing on creep too.

[EonMaster]

I agree with gasmaskguy. Anything that makes the zerg players camp at thier bases won'y work in the same. The zerg are supposed to be offencive, the ability to regenerate only in creep would make many players play defensively.

[Gah345]

yeah i see, theyd all become turtlers

[Protoss Kills Infinitely]

What about making spines come out of the creep to pull enemy units into the ground or something...Or pits with spines in them but hidden? ???

[Overling]

I'd rather have underground throats that stuck the ground enemies in it. This way, ground targets wouldn't have a way around it like they could ignore the Sunken and move to the drones. A ground-throat would suck them if they walk near it, and kill them slowly in the process.

If you put some of these hidden in the creep, and the enemy will surely fall by mistake in one of those. They should work like hidden structures that only trigger when the enemy is walking over it, trapping the enemy and hitting it while it is trapped. Only hovering/air units wouldn't trigger it, and to see it would require detection. Upon entering its field, units would be severely slowed too, simulating the sucking of the throat. If the enemy doesn't have a high HP, it will die trying to cross it.

This kind of ground hidden structure would be a good defense to decrease Zealot's HP and mobility, but easily avoidable once the enemy has Stalkers to blink away/over it. And since structures can only be built on creep (besides Nydus worms), it could hide in the creep itself, making stepping into the creep a dangerous task for all infantry units, whenever the zerg player gets it.

Terrans would require the Medics' detection skill, or flying/hovering units to get by it unharmed. Reapers could get trapped into these, but they can enter the creep from advantageous points, and they're spendable.

[hydralisk]

that is a greast idea but i also think some of the hp taken away should be saved up to heal your own zerg units

[DarkTemplol]

i think the idea of the creep hurting or slowing down enemy units would make the Zerg too strong. i mean, Zerg relied on speed and Numbers. Slowing down units on the offensive would kinda make it incredibly difficult to beat the already overwhelming numbers of the Zerg.

[Pyrodaimon]

It would be unbalanced indeed but it makes sense that when you walk on a slimy purple substance to slow down a little bit.

[DarkTemplol]

Balance over realism :P

[Smokiehunter]

thank you dark that is what I'm talking about. zerg is already an offensive race giving them a great defense were you could spawn even more zerg as they come into your base would be nuts. the only way to win would be mass air and I believe blizz is trying to move away from massing BC and Carriers

[Psionicz]

I read the first 7 pages, the ideas I think could be put into effect are:

Slightly slowing down enemy units on creep, which means the sunkuns slow attack rate isnt much of an immediate problem, plus isn't the creep kinda gooey like a marsh or swamp?.

Faster regen for friendly units (including allies), lol I don't see why not. Cuz think about it, an amphibian is faster in the water but can still move on land [i know its a bad comparison but im tired :D]. This stops zealots from being too powerful with them being the strongest small unit with that whole charge ability.

Having a special unit(units) or building that travels under the creep (meaning its 'cloaked') with a high damaging but slow attack rate would be good; imagine you expanded your base near an enemy camp and you could move this unit to the frontline and it attacks the base which is close.
-
This could be balanced by giving terrans or protoss and building that repels creep which adds to the effect the Zergs 'consume' planets or enemies (how vines strangle different species of plants it runs into, but of course you can repel weeds/vines with different substances)

Possibly different types of creep, for example: normal creep that allows upgrades such as faster regan and then you have a type of sunkun colony that is slightly acidic so it cant allow buildings to spawn on it but slowly damages units on it, similar to a terran building on fire. But zergs would damage slower.

[hydralisk]

on the slowing down part the zerg need this extra defence because really the protoos and terrans have way more defence think about it the terrans now have the supply doors along with bunkers and the protoos can wrap around there base like crazy all the zerg got is sunkens which is very easy to get by the need this slowing down effect and possibly the special creep hunter thing

[EonMaster]

From what people say, some things are good, while others aren't. I have compiled a list on what I personally think about some of the ideas, and my reasons for them.

creep can slow down non-zerg units-should not be allowed in the game. It would either be too powerful or too weak, and nobody would agree as to what the exact rate to the unit is slowed that would be acceptable. Also, this would cause the zerg to camp, which is not how the zerg are meant to be played.

zerg units regenerate faster while on the creep-this should not be added, or have a very small increase in the rate. This idea I originally supported, but recently I have seen that this ability would cause a great incentive to have the player camp in their bases where the creep has settled over the ground.

creep should be able to climb cliffs-should be added to the game. This idea is a excellent way for zerg to combat the new cliff hoping abilities. Also, this would allow for other possible zerg mechanics to be implemented into the game. Two very popular ideas are listed right below this one.

creep allowing zerg units to climb cliffs-should be in the game. This ability would have the zerg be allowed to move their units around easier, adding to the fact that they are swarming units. Also, this would balance out the issue that the protoss and terran have units that can climb cliffs, zerg would be able to have all their units would be able to do it.

if the creep can form on walls, building could be built on it-I think this is a good idea, but only low tier buildings should be able to be built on it. Mainly, only tier 1 and 2 military buildings as well as both sunkern and spore colonies. Tier 3-4 should not be able to be built on walls, as well as hatcheries.

zerg units can hide and attack while in the creep-should be in the game. However there should be a limit as to how many can hide depending on the total area the creep covers. The larger creep size, say for the main base, would be able to bury more units than the creep in a small expansion. This would allow the zerg to defend, but not be able to hide their entire army, so camping wouldn't be too big of a problem.

If you have any complaints about my reasoning, post which abilities you disagree on and why you think my reasoning is incorrect.

[Psionicz]

Yea you're right on the camping issues, which is against Zerg rules :p. The slowing down shouldnt be introduced then.

The S