The fate of the Ultralisk...

[PrivateJoker]

Although the Ultralisks became somewhat useful with Broodwar upgrades, they still remain one of the least used units in the Starcraft universe. In fact in my 9 years of on and off playing, I think I may have played against maybe less than 10 players that would fight me with them. (Although I myself used them occasionally with units mixes, they make great decoys, and strangely are very powerful only island maps when you drop them, its an expensive, albeit effective way of way of being able to easily destroy an expansion base)

Anyways, its fairly easy to assume the Ultralisk will all but be removed from the game, or if still in the game, in a largely different form. (A high level upgrade that allows you to combine 10 Zerglings with 200 gas to create a more powerful version of the original Ultra?) I just feel that as a distinct unit, the Ultralisks in SC original were really lacking.

[GuiMontag]

i dont agree at all lol, ultralisk's are supposed to be used to break heavily fortified positions and they are great for that. they are really the same as a battle cruiser, used on its own and your just asking for trouble, but when used with a large group of units it is a good unit. I think the problem is that many people dont know how to use them, they think they can just send in 2 or 3 on their own and that should be able to destroy a base lol

[PrivateJoker]

i dont agree at all lol, ultralisk's are supposed to be used to break heavily fortified positions and they are great for that. they are really the same as a battle cruiser, used on its own and your just asking for trouble, but when used with a large group of units it is a good unit. I think the problem is that many people dont know how to use them, they think they can just send in 2 or 3 on their own and that should be able to destroy a base lol


The main problem with the Ultra, is that they are very expensive, come in the last element of the tech tree, and require numerous expensive upgrades to make them useful. They are also clumsy, and attack far to slowly. All they are really good is absorbing damage, used with the synergy of Zerlings and Defilers with Dark Swarm. Also for an ultra advanced unit, its lack of air defense is stifling. I agree with you to an extent, its just that things like, Sunken Colonies and Photon Cannons eat these babies for lunch. Not to mention low level vulture mines and siege tanks behind buildings leave these units almost useless. (They are so big that they can't manuever as well as most units)

I don't remember if anyone here remembers when Dragoons were classified as large, had a shorter attack range? The large size and shorter attack range made the dragoons by far the worst ranged shooter in the game. Look what a couple updates can do for unit balance...wow!

[FlyingTiger]

yea i think the ultralisks are here to stay. they were quite useful as a support unit when raiding a base. they are quite cheap for a "big" unit and they tare those buildings down so fast.

...and the ultralisk looked badass in that starcraft:ghost cinematic anyways :P

[mc2]

I used them a lot when I have to go up against several siege tanks near a choke point. The tanks would fire at my ultralisks while my lings and hydras rushes in to make the kill. I think ultralisks will make a return in the game, or a similar unit. They are required in large battles.

[PrivateJoker]

I used them a lot when I have to go up against several siege tanks near a choke point. The tanks would fire at my ultralisks while my lings and hydras rushes in to make the kill. I think ultralisks will make a return in the game, or a similar unit. They are required in large battles.


All they would have to do is give the Ultra long legs that would allow it to "walk over" smaller units, sorta like how the collosus does, but less dramatic. This would further enable them to act as a damage cushion, while making them an even more severe threat to smaller unit armies, where the ultras could simply run over them and attack their flank while the rest of the army attacks from the other, side annhilitating the power of siege weapons that auto target the most powerful units. (And the threat of splash to smaller HP units)

[wuffle]

I do like the idea of allowing them to walk over units. This would make them more manuverable. I think it would be a good idea to be able to combine like 10 lings or w/e to get an ultra. This would make them more realistic to produce and would go along with the zerg them of massing. You mass units. If you need a tank, squish 'em together.

[PrivateJoker]

I do like the idea of allowing them to walk over units. This would make them more manuverable. I think it would be a good idea to be able to combine like 10 lings or w/e to get an ultra. This would make them more realistic to produce and would go along with the zerg them of massing. You mass units. If you need a tank, squish 'em together.


Yea I would like to see Zerg more modifable on the fly. I am thinking different morph paths for Hydras and Mutas, however you could also instantly demorph the units, if say you needed the unit for a seperate purpose, you could then remorph to the same unit branch for free, but could instead say pay to morph down a different tech path.

Imagine if Hydras could morph into three differnt unit types? Lurkers...PSYCHOLISKS!....and a spellcaster varition of a hydra, probably with upgrades for ensnare and plague...

[zeratul11]

i think ultralisk in sc2 should be buffed up. remember tarrasque? now the ultralisk in sc2 should be like that. tough and strong.

[Oiyzas]

The Ultralisk is an great characterful unit. Unfortunately, I agree with Joker: No one used them.

The walk-over units idea is great, but what if their attack could 'sweep' side to side, attacking several units? I mean, the Ultralisk is similar to an elephant, right? It attacks by slashing with tusks. Up against a cluster of marines, one swipe of those tusks would slice several of the marines, not just one, since it sweeps the tusks from side to side. This gives more of an idea of a behemoth swinging huge blades left and right, butchering all who come close. I think it'd fit in more with the character model, anyway.

[Lord David]

The Ultralisk is an great characterful unit. Unfortunately, I agree with Joker: No one used them.

The walk-over units idea is great, but what if their attack could 'sweep' side to side, attacking several units? I mean, the Ultralisk is similar to an elephant, right? It attacks by slashing with tusks. Up against a cluster of marines, one swipe of those tusks would slice several of the marines, not just one, since it sweeps the tusks from side to side. This gives more of an idea of a behemoth swinging huge blades left and right, butchering all who come close. I think it'd fit in more with the character model, anyway.


Hmm interesting ideas for the ultimate fate of the Ultralisk here...

How about having the Ultralisk be able to "stomp" on small ground units blocking it's way? It'll effectively kill/destroy the small ground unit within a matter of seconds but will potentially cause the Ultralisk to lose HP? Maybe have half a HP loss for every HP inflicted on an enemy unit? This will be non effective to Protoss shields (i.e no HP loss penalty for Ultralisk when attacking shields) and of course only limited to small sized ground units with the potential for splash damage? Oh and one more thing, it can also have a "timer" ya know, where one has to wait before being able to use this stomp ability again?

And here's another possible ability to prolong the Ultralisks' usefulness, how about having the ability to leap from cliffs? Zerglings could have this ability too where they can leap from cliffs to lower ground but not from ground to cliff? Maybe have this is a researchable evolution? :) :good:

Just some other thoughts to add...

[Oiyzas]

The stomp idea is another thing that'd make it more characterful, but the 1/2 hp for every 1 dealt would cause the ultra to die fast. Think about it:

Ultralist charges 4 marines.
Ultralisk stomps on them all, dealing 160 damage(total).
Ultralisk loses 80 health, plus whatever marines did while it was charging/etc.

The ultra wouldnt be able to kill a dozen marines, even. A different ratio would have to be used, or the recieve-damage-back cant be implemented effectively, in my mind.

How about just allow enemies to attack while being stomped on? That way the ultra doesnt come away completely unscathed, but doesnt take more damage than it would via regular attacks. No one would stomp a zealot if they took 50 damage in the process, but 16 is an acceptable loss.

And, of course, stomp would have to do a lot of damage if it were set on a timer. Enough to one-shot most small units. The idea is great, though. Someone should write to Blizzard.

[Lord David]

The stomp idea is another thing that'd make it more characterful, but the 1/2 hp for every 1 dealt would cause the ultra to die fast. Think about it:

Ultralist charges 4 marines.
Ultralisk stomps on them all, dealing 160 damage(total).
Ultralisk loses 80 health, plus whatever marines did while it was charging/etc.

The ultra wouldnt be able to kill a dozen marines, even. A different ratio would have to be used, or the recieve-damage-back cant be implemented effectively, in my mind.

How about just allow enemies to attack while being stomped on? That way the ultra doesnt come away completely unscathed, but doesnt take more damage than it would via regular attacks. No one would stomp a zealot if they took 50 damage in the process, but 16 is an acceptable loss.

And, of course, stomp would have to do a lot of damage if it were set on a timer. Enough to one-shot most small units. The idea is great, though. Someone should write to Blizzard.


Well I still think it aught to have some damage inflicted to the Ultralisk, think about it, you would surely have some sore feet or whatnot if you were stomping on metal laden Marines and so forth...

Obviously it would need some HP tweaking on the Ultralisk's side if it were to prolong the Ultralisk's life on a battlefield, especially given the huge cost to make such a creature...

[PrivateJoker]

The Ultralisk is an great characterful unit. Unfortunately, I agree with Joker: No one used them.

The walk-over units idea is great, but what if their attack could 'sweep' side to side, attacking several units? I mean, the Ultralisk is similar to an elephant, right? It attacks by slashing with tusks. Up against a cluster of marines, one swipe of those tusks would slice several of the marines, not just one, since it sweeps the tusks from side to side. This gives more of an idea of a behemoth swinging huge blades left and right, butchering all who come close. I think it'd fit in more with the character model, anyway.



Hmm interesting ideas for the ultimate fate of the Ultralisk here...

How about having the Ultralisk be able to "stomp" on small ground units blocking it's way? It'll effectively kill/destroy the small ground unit within a matter of seconds but will potentially cause the Ultralisk to lose HP? Maybe have half a HP loss for every HP inflicted on an enemy unit? This will be non effective to Protoss shields (i.e no HP loss penalty for Ultralisk when attacking shields) and of course only limited to small sized ground units with the potential for splash damage? Oh and one more thing, it can also have a "timer" ya know, where one has to wait before being able to use this stomp ability again?

And here's another possible ability to prolong the Ultralisks' usefulness, how about having the ability to leap from cliffs? Zerglings could have this ability too where they can leap from cliffs to lower ground but not from ground to cliff? Maybe have this is a researchable evolution? :) :good:

Just some other thoughts to add...


An Ultralisk/Tauren?? Maybe, I think I like the idea of doing a very small area splash to ground units, with the ability to walk over enemy/friendly units. It would be a great unit for small infantry and buildings, which is still a specialization, where as the splashes range would be minimized and focused when attacking large units where the no splash would be able to hit beyond the focal point of attack on the large unit. Anyways I am thinking that their will end up being an "evolved ultralisk" in SC2. So I am hoping.....:)

[Major Willy]

So they're more effective, maybe a passive cleave like the Pit Lord has in Warcraft?
A certain % of damage to nearby enemies. 60 - 85%?

[Inside Sin]

I do like the idea of allowing them to walk over units. This would make them more manuverable. I think it would be a good idea to be able to combine like 10 lings or w/e to get an ultra. This would make them more realistic to produce and would go along with the zerg them of massing. You mass units. If you need a tank, squish 'em together.


Yes it would be good for them to go over/trample units to get past. But they should not be upgraded from zerglings... zerglings already have an upgrade and probally are going to have two, we don't need 3 of them.

[Arachanox]

Ultralisks don't really need to come back. But if really want them, I suggest to Blizzard that they give Ultralisks a strong attack against buildings and medium/large units. Those little marines are going to be hard to hit, but if a pylon or siege tank gets hit with the full force of a 2 ton Ultralisk, it BETTER break.

[MrFrancko]

Yeah, if the Ultra or something like it remains i'm sure they will act like the colossus. It would make total sense. Plus it'll look really wild to have a huge swarm of lings coming at you with a few Ultras striding along with them.

[Lord David]

The Stomp idea is a "hopeful" addition, really, the main usefulness of Ultralisks (and as I stated, Zerglings too) is an evolved trait that enables them to leap from cliffs to ground level. This would ultimately prolong the Ultralisks' usefulness and for those that can't afford, the Zerglings will get a similar ability too.

[generalrievous]

aye a trample ability for tha ultras would be great

[Major Willy]

Now you have to think. The Colossals are a large unit and so were the Ultralisks in Starcraft 1.
Do you think if they come back, will be large enough to be considered as air as well?

And I doubt even with size that the Ultralisks will be able to go up and down cliffs. Bases would be in constant jeapordy and would throw army vs base balance off.

[MrFrancko]

Call me crazy but maybe the Colossus can go up and down cliffs but the ultra can traverse waterways. They are a living creature so I could see them being able to swim it or go under the water. They can breath in the vacuum of space afterall. Thoughts?

[Becka1988]

lol i didnt know ultralisk can swim hahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahah

[SirBaron]

I'd wager it'd walk on the bottom rather than actually swim.

[Becka1988]

I'd wager it'd walk on the bottom rather than actually swim.


cute ;)

[SirBaron]

I'd wager it'd walk on the bottom rather than actually swim.


cute ;)

Not so very cute at all when they need to get out of the water but can't because there aren't beaches and Overlords can't swim. :S

[surr]

what if it can charge, so it will run right into a unit, do a knock back affect and trample units in front of it... dont count the workability but it would be cool

[overmind]

the ultralisk:

should be able to scramble up cliffs
should have a massive stomp or swing tusks ability that smashes infantry while increasing damage from seige attacks due to its exposed underside(ghost anyone?)
should be massive (like maybe those things from Lord Of The Rings) so they can be attacked by air but not attack air since their melee
should have a charge ability that increases speed and smashes building or large units while increasing small arms damage
must come back
should own the feild

Other than "own the feild" i think thats pretty balanced aye ???

[Mike]

"own the field" is something I always wanted for ultralisks.. C'mon, Terran and Protoss ultimate units rocks, it's time for zerg to shine on blood soaked ground covered with smashed and cut-in-half bodies of rines and zealots, muahahahahah!!!

Err, I mean go utlralisks, go :)

[SirBaron]

Fully upgraded they can pretty much level bases in large amounts.
Add some hydras and lings on that together with well placed dark swarms: <3

[GuiMontag]

i think all the ultralisk really needs is a damage upgrade, maybe 40 damage per attack, this would make them able to slice a marine in 2 per attack

[Oiyzas]

A damage upgrade, as we can all agree, is a requirement. A several ton beast sporting 8ft long scythes ramming headlong into a marine? That ought to equal pwnage. Two attacks to kill a simple marine is illogical. THESE THINGS SHOULD SMASH!

Maybe this:

Bigger Size
Walk Down Cliffs
Higher Damage(mebbe 60?)
Special Anti-Building Attack(since that's supposed to be their specialization)

Any thoughts?

[GuiMontag]

i dont think it should be able to walk up/down cliffs because the ultralisk is a big fat tank, maybe if they remodelled it as sleeker and more agile

[Lord David]

i dont think it should be able to walk up/down cliffs because the ultralisk is a big fat tank, maybe if they remodelled it as sleeker and more agile


I have an alternate idea posted here and the new units thread, rather than going up down cliffs, in can only leap down a cliff to lower ground, not vice versa.

[Ghost]

Huge, fast, strong, resiliant, agile, skilled and hungry hippos... not good.

[jamaylott]

I always thought that it would have been cool to give the ULTRA a charge/Ram ability that allowed it to do MASSIVE damage on its first hit after it had been moving for a while.


This would be useful for taking down buildings (the toss have warp ray, terrans nukes, why not give the Zerg a charging angry beastie?)


I also thought it might be kind of cool if the ultra could TRAMPLE some smaller ground units (say supply cost 1) like say 5 in a row before it came to a stand still. be kinda cool to watch AND it would be sweet, you got like 20 rines, and then BAM, 10 of them are pooched cuz there are 2 lumbering apartment buildings charging them for an early dinner!


these tiny mods would surly make the price of the Ultra much more valuable, agreed?

[Ghost]

Oooh, i shmell a pricy hippo.

[jamaylott]

ghost, my joke is so much more cooler-er than yours.

and yes, it would be one Motha@#$%EN expensive hippo.


oh yes.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, blizzard, dont make it look like the ultra is taking it up the ass when you animate its attack.

thanks.

[Ghost]

ghost, my joke is so much more cooler-er than yours.


I cant seem to find your joke, and kudos to the "taking it up the ass" LOL.

[MrFrancko]

I like the ramming idea for buildings. Would definitely go along with the concept of the unit. I could also see them being able to hop down a cliff but maybe not up it. These are big boys (or hippos, haha) so it would make sense for them to be able to do certain things that the smaller units can't.

[surr]

or bloodlust like in wc3 that makes it attack fast and mabye gory

[Becka1988]

I like the sentiment guys. I always thought the ultras were a bit underpowered for what they seemed to be. I mean a giant monster alien with enormous razor sharp tusks, stampedeing towards an enemy unit, then instead of slashing them to pieces the Ultralisk stops politely, and begins playfully slapping the enemy units, for minimal damage!!

I think the underwhelming attack power of the Ultra is really would led to its unpopularity!

[PrivateJoker]

I like the sentiment guys. I always thought the ultras were a bit underpowered for what they seemed to be. I mean a giant monster alien with enormous razor sharp tusks, stampedeing towards an enemy unit, then instead of slashing them to pieces the Ultralisk stops politely, and begins playfully slapping the enemy units, for minimal damage!!

I think the underwhelming attack power of the Ultra is really would led to its unpopularity!


paragon, is that you?

[LoserInLosing]

Ultralisks are weaklings, jus have a couple of stim packs with marines and they are gonnas. The take too long, and way to expensive. Its nearly impossible to even have 5 ultralisks as an army. Just have a couple of air units and slowly blast ultralisks away... making them the most pathetic unit eva. If it was a ranged unit, smaller and definately quicker then its definatley worth it Hope they remove it!

[Malicus]

I think the Ultralisk is certainly going to make a return in SC2, perhaps nastier and more evolved. I think they should have the sweep ability to hit several units at once with a single attack, which is what they should have been able to do in the original SC. I also think they should have the ability to charge and trample smaller units. Maybe dealing significant damage to everything in its path, even your own zerglings and units caught in the charge. You would only be able to pull this off while charging into combat, just like the new Zealot charge ability, so you couldnt do it over and over unless you left the melee and charged back into it. I wouldent be surprised at all if they even give it some sort of limited air attack, like a corrosive spit that is effective against light aircraft. That would so just rock!

[Major Willy]

A couple of stimmed Marines?

Stop hallucinating, Ultralisks tore through Marines.

[Mike]

I wouldent be surprised at all if they even give it some sort of limited air attack, like a corrosive spit that is effective against light aircraft. That would so just rock!


How about ability to "mount" , let's say 2, hydralisks on top of an Ultra? Story-wise their weight would be unsignificant for ultralisk, and ability to attach air units would make it ultimate war beast. Mounting would be a little too-warcraftish, so... merging! Select ultralisk, two hydras, wait and poof! We have rokkin' beast which can slice ground units and spit to those pesky fighters. And definitely jumping down the cliffs :)

[sordid]

One word: balance.

[MrFrancko]

Ha, the merging idea could be slick but it won't happen. The idea is that you need multiple units in a force in order to defend against any kind of attack. Plus it's pretty far removed from anything seen in SC1.

[paragon]

Mounting an ultralisk? That doesn't sound good at all. Remember the ultralisk in that SC Ghost cinematic? That thing was massive and was killing tons of marines. They may beef up its damage or HP.

[Mike]

Ha, the merging idea could be slick but it won't happen. The idea is that you need multiple units in a force in order to defend against any kind of attack. Plus it's pretty far removed from anything seen in SC1.


Yeah, I know but you already have some units that can attack air AND ground (mutas, hydras). And I'm not talking about ultralisk as a hydra replacement - too expensive, besides you won't put a dozen of ultras in your base as mobile anti-flyer unit - they would stuck :). I simply hate Scouts hurting my ultralisks in places where I won't dare send air support - let flyers still kill ultras from the air but at least give the beasts CHANCE to hurt flyers back - that wouldn't be too unbalanced, I imagine. And merging already is here (Archons) - so why not use it ;) ?


Mounting an ultralisk? That doesn't sound good at all. Remember the ultralisk in that SC Ghost cinematic? That thing was massive and was killing tons of marines. They may beef up its damage or HP.


Well, give me ultralisks as powerful as the one in that cinematic and I withdraw ALL my postulates :)

[paragon]

Like giving the melee attack splash damage and the ability to knock infantry sized units over.

[Mike]

As well as simply striding above those small units - and we have ultralisk the way it should be from the very beginning..

[AntiTossWeapon]

the ultra should have a devour abiliti,like the kodo in war 3 :D
or the warstomp, jump on the ground knoking everybody out :)

[Tarantulo]

Em, of course Ultralisks have some weaknesses in SC1 I mean, when it is crowded and not a lot of space they are kinda useless. But when you have enough space thats when come in handy.

6-8 Ultras are almost unstopable force when they are sent on a base defence to brake it down. And if you have and army of hydralisk following, then it is good bye mumma :)

I hope they will keep the Ultralisk in SC2 and of course some beefing up would do just nice ;)

[paragon]

course you could just send in guardians to pummel base defenses.

[WHAT!]

why not just give it a stomp ability like the tauren cheiftan from wc 3? stomps ground for 30 damage but it will hit units within 10 feet,add cleave to it and bam ultralisk will destroy marines.

[paragon]

and make it bigger, like half the size of a colossus.

[PrivateJoker]

The Ultralisks Chintonius plating should make it invulernable to piercing range attacks, and reduces normal and explosive attacks by 50%, plus the armor increase of +3. This would make the Ultra a range unit counter, while not be unbalanced, while at the same time diminishing the ability of air to quickly kill them off, while at the same time siege weapons would still be effective in weakening them and they could also be overcome with a sufficient melee unit mix. :powerup:

EDIT: I think Blizzard screwed up the tech position of the Ultra in SC 1, the Ultra should have been available second tier Lair, while gaining access to speed and chintonous upgrades at the Hive level. I think making the Ultra 3rd teir greatly limits the timing of its usefulness.

[[LightMare]]

well come on. you can't have gryphons or chimaeras or abominations in tier 2, let's get reasonable. this thing is mighty in the right situations. with cleave attack, this thing will be tearing through shrieking marines and bases in no time

[PrivateJoker]

well come on. you can't have gryphons or chimaeras or abominations in tier 2, let's get reasonable. this thing is mighty in the right situations. with cleave attack, this thing will be tearing through shrieking marines and bases in no time



Give the Ultralisk a massive gaseous fart cloud like the Abominations, and then we can talk.

[[LightMare]]

1 damage per second for 120 seconds? that nothing. besides, the upgrade costs a lot. it doesn't come with Disease Cloud
and, most of the units in starcraft are not organic

[PrivateJoker]

1 damage per second for 120 seconds? that nothing. besides, the upgrade costs a lot. it doesn't come with Disease Cloud
and, most of the units in starcraft are not organic


I didn't say it should be the SAME ability, just a similar one. Maybe its a corrosive fart cloud that disintegrates all organic and mechnical that come near it?

[jamaylott]

ghost, my joke is so much more cooler-er than yours.


I cant seem to find your joke, and kudos to the "taking it up the ass" LOL.


the joke, my signature, you got your nucklear launch one, where as mine is acctually a joke....

[paragon]

ultra should definitely remain at tier 3. I mean... it's ultra. I should be the pinnacle of Zerg ground might.

[Piretes]

Ok my suggestions (if they even get read in this swamp of ideas):

No "ram" ability or farts, but "Cleave" or something similar would rock. Finally give the zerg some AoE (Terran: Siege Tank, Protoss: Psi Storm). Give the Ultra a 60-75% chance to hit units (and buildings) next to it's target. No splash, just AoE damage (so ev1 gets the same pwnage). Consider lowering the attack damage for this.
One could include "ram" into this; make the Cleave ability 100% on impact (would be hard to do those mechanics: what is "impact" exactly? Is it hitting the next siege tank in a row, or is it after you crossed half the map in full stride?)

Maybe a cooldown on "Cleave" would be nice, say 10-30 seconds, which the Ultras activates automatically. Or some sort of "adrenaline build-up" e.g. Cleave every 3 hits or so.

For all those people saying Trample on infantry: I wuld like to point out that fully upgraded Ultra's have 6 armors or so, making marines, zerglings, hydras e.g. hardly dent it. It is unstoppable vs infantry already. Add dark swarm, and you just got yourself some marine soup. DeeeeLicious.

That aside, it takes a skilled player to be able to counter air harass when using ultras. This really balances it I think. Also consider the effect of broodlings and irradiate on Ultras. There goes your 200/200 investment.

The real reason many Zergs don't utilize Ultras is the techage and time needed. Truly, I only use them when I either play on a money-map, or when I based my strategy on Dark Swarmage.

Thanks for reading.

[Piretes]

Adding cleave to them would make them too overpowered I think. They would be able to take down whole armies on their own... the way they are now means you need to use them with backup units that deal damage.


That could be true, but read more thoroughly. I said a damage reduction would be in order should this be added.


Ultras are really only good for being tanks.


Does that have to apply to SC2? And while I agree with the livability part of "tanks", it ain't like they soak up the damage. What I get is, I launch an assault (Ling-Hydra-Ultra), and the only thing left is ultras hacking away at buildings. They don't protect the rest, it's in fact the opposite. Exactly why they should assume a role as a damage dealer and priority target.

[GuiMontag]

well if your going to compare ultras to tanks then look at the seige tank rofl. The ultralisk has about 4 times as much hp. The ultralisk is the best unit in starcraft for soaking damage, it also deals loads of damage when used properly because of its fast attack rate.
Considering the protoss now has a ground unit(collosus) with more hp than the ultralisk i think we will definately see a huge hp boost, probably around 800 hp.

[SirBaron]

well if your going to compare ultras to tanks then look at the seige tank rofl. The ultralisk has about 4 times as much hp. The ultralisk is the best unit in starcraft for soaking damage, it also deals loads of damage when used properly because of its fast attack rate.
Considering the protoss now has a ground unit(collosus) with more hp than the ultralisk i think we will definately see a huge hp boost, probably around 800 hp.

Then we might just give it 25+ damage and rename it "Torrasque".

[Piretes]

well if your going to compare ultras to tanks then look at the seige tank rofl. The ultralisk has about 4 times as much hp. The ultralisk is the best unit in starcraft for soaking damage, it also deals loads of damage when used properly because of its fast attack rate.
Considering the protoss now has a ground unit(collosus) with more hp than the ultralisk i think we will definately see a huge hp boost, probably around 800 hp.


I was not comparing ANYTHING to Siege Tanks, "Tank" is a term for something sturdy. Hmmk?
Next, why should the Ultralisk have the highest HP of all SC units. I think that one of the downsides for Ultra is that it gets in the way and deal little damage for cost (it's far more effective to swarm with lings or hydras). That's why we need damage, not livability.

[paragon]

I think he was commenting on the fact that siege tanks (despite having tank in their name) are not tanks in the sense that ultralisks are (they are not damage absorbers).

How about giving ultras that ability the mountain giant has that makes nearby units attack him. wreaks havoc on micro.
"NO I don't want to attack that dammit"

[overmind]

Quote from: Ghost on June 22, 2007, 08:49:32 AM
Quote from: jamaylott on June 22, 2007, 08:34:56 AM
ghost, my joke is so much more cooler-er than yours.


I cant seem to find your joke, and kudos to the "taking it up the ass" LOL.


the joke, my signature, you got your nucklear launch one, where as mine is acctually a joke....

i don't get it whats abzerg ??? like mine ;D

[Ych9]

I think the Ultralisk is definitely going to stay. They are probably going to have a new ability much like how the Zealots got the new Charge ability.

The trample idea sounds like a very good idea. They are big, and should do splash damage. But thinking about it, that sounds too much like the Archons. I would actually give the Ultralisk a different passive ability. Maybe a passive that has a % that would bash the unit they are attacking and send them backword?

And as someone pointed out, since the Collossus have huge amount of HP, I see some sort of HP upgrade for the Ultralisk. They were the ultimate sponge units in SC, and should also be the case for SC2.

I also can't wait to see what the new Ultralisk is going to look like in the 3d engine. Hopefully, we can see them in action at BlizzConn.

[Remy]

I hope they dump ultras and surprise me with something else, ultras really sucked hard.Â* No other unit in the game was built for the sole purpose of to tank and die without any other incentive or usage at all.

Just in case ultras do make it back, let me throw my ideas on ways of improvement out there too.

Ultras definitely need a boost in their offensive capabilities.Â* If a damage boost will be too overpowering, which isn't what I want, then it should at least be done indirectly.Â*

My idea on how to do this is to give ultras a passive ability that lowers the armor of the target unit or building by 2 or so, including negative armor.Â* This should only last just barely longer than ultra's attack cooldown so you can't have ultras running around tagging everything in sight.Â* I think it makes sense for the behemoth units to be able to deliver crushing blows to units and buildings making them more open to attacks from other units.Â* Crushing blow, pulverize, whatever you wanna call it.

If Blizzard sadly decide that they still want ultras to play like how they did in SC1 then it will suck and be a sad decision.Â* But here are some ideas to improve ultras even in that case, to make them better at how Blizzard wants them to be.

DEVOUR:Â* Eat a friendly ground unit and gain HP equal to 50~75% of the target's current HP.Â* Not the kodo ability.Â* More like consume except you get HP instead of energy, like eat tree or death pact.Â* This should have a short cooldown if at all.

GORGE:Â* Passive ability.Â* Ultralisk takes a bite out of any target on every attack(doesn't have to be that way graphically) mechanical or otherwise and gains back a small amount of HP each time.Â* Basically a leeching attack.Â* This too, will aid in ultra's tanking.

BASH:Â* Passive ability.Â* Ultra stuns its target for just a moment on every hit, preventing any movent or attack/abilities.Â* Basically allowing each ultra to effectively disable one ground target unit/building.

I also thought that mountain giant's taunt could be nice for ultras.Â* Anyway, just some ideas.

[shirija]

Lol, it could be soo much simpler remy, just give them cleaving damage (In case you don't know, it's melee version of splash damage basically). It would be in theme and easy to manage. Bash would be pointless because they'll likely be getting killed by smaller units so being out numbered, devour is okay but it would make it imba if you have overlords on the waiting as healers basically, and micro would make it more so, and gorge doesn't make sense if the enemy's not made of flesh and blood, so it could be very easy to counter.

[paragon]

I hope nothing in SC2 stuns. It's a bad mechanic especially if it were put in SC because everything has less HP in SC so it doesn't last as long as in WC3. So, if something is bashed, it's basically dead.

Anyways for ultras I would say cleave and taunt and something like devour so it can tank better.

[Remy]

Yea I know cleave, I played WC3. I don't like cleave for ultras over armor reduction. There is a difference.

Massing ultras that all have splash damage could be a problem, this goes against Blizzard's aim of unit mixing. Depending on what you fight against you could be pretty effective with just ultras for the most part. But armor reduction debuff means that you'll have to have other units attacking to take advantage.

Bash is more for taking out bunkers/cannons out of the picture, but yea largely useless I agree.

Gorge doesn't have to be bio-only, spawn broodling eats through metal to get inside. Even real life alligators can already digest metal, let alone mutant Zerg.

I don't understand why you say devour would be imbalanced. You can't really ovie drop units for consumption in the heat of battle cuz ultras are frontline units. If you do it after fights it's the same as building fresh ones cuz you're killing your other units in the process, so basically you're paying for HP. Even if ultras ate a ling/hydra every few seconds, you can still take them down with focus fire. If ultras are not drawing fire, then it is already to the Zerg's disadvantage cuz it defeats the purpose of getting them in the first place.

[shirija]

Well, there has to be at least a cool down. It's hard enough to kill a death knight, now imagine ultralisks, which is usually paired up with masses of zerglings anyway, and now that spell casting for units would be much better streamlined (I'm assuming similar to warcraft 3), it would mean you could just press a key and press a zergling. I also wouldn't argue that it is imba except since one of the major disadvantages of ultra is that it is melee, and therefore damage dealing is limited to the first layer of the army, it makes it much more advantageous to be able to have a front line that doesn't die. Granted this is a defensive modification if anything so it is hard to discuss it in parallel with cleave.

It is also because of this that cleave makes ultra's offensive potential much, much higher. If it's dealing with ranged units, it wouldn't matter as much because damage would come the same either way.

With your modification of armor, it would be advantageous especially if hydralisk is paired up to provide damage. It also means its potential is reduced for killing smaller units (since most of the ranged hits would be wasted in ff), and also it would mean swarm is going to have a hard time playing its role as well. To simplify everything, I still have to say that cleave would be the most effective under the theme of quantity over quality, and economy over micromanagement.

[Lord David]

I say, based on a conglomeration of sorts of all the ideas here, is that to give the Ultralisk a very high HP (800 like Terrosaque) A reasonable standard base damage (40 + 5 per upgrade = 55 in total, capable of killing a marine in one slice), and 3 standard Zerg Carapace, 1+ per upgrade, maybe the return of the extra armor upgrade, 7 armor in total.

It's special abilities:
Stomp, capable of stomping within it's melee range (creating splash damage too, not enabling the enemy units targeted to attack maybe? Oh yeah that's right, that's STUN! ;D) for around 40 or so seconds (with perhaps 40 second cooldown timer), for each 2 hp of an enemy ground unit stomped 1 hp of the Ultralisk is lost, around 40 stomps may be achieved within 40 seconds. (So if a "group" of Marines are targeted, 40 stomps, Marines die, say 4 Marines, 40 x 4 = 160/2 = 80 HP loss for the Ultralisk (maybe not minus the armor), which is reasonable, capable of regenerating half that amount during timer... (if not under attack still)

Leap, the ability to leap from higher ground to lower ground. (Zerglings will have this ability too)

Cliff climb (for lack of a better word), the ability to climb cliffs, but at a slower rate as leaping off it?

[burkid]

i dont like the losing health part of stomp, since ultras would be under focused fire, losing health while stomping would destroy it.

[shirija]

Yes but in the case of simply trading hp for hp, I'd have to say ultralisk is getting the higher end of the bargain....

[Lord David]

Yes but in the case of simply trading hp for hp, I'd have to say ultralisk is getting the higher end of the bargain....


Indeed, the Ultralisk would be losing 1 HP per every 2 HP dealt to an opponent, plus the ability would not be one of those forever things, there would be a timer cooldown, all it needs is some tweaking to ensure it's feasible? Alternatively, a high HP (remember an Ultralisk cannot attack air, it would be highly susceptible to air attacks), could compensate for the loss dealt.

Also, groups of Ultralisks performing this ability in groups would have the damage dealt to them transferred accordingly, maybe even having less damage inflicted to them based on the fact that they're attacking in packs?

[shirija]

Well not really needed, since the original problem was that the ultralisks only have hp and they're not doing enough damage to boot, so if they could trade their hp for offensive capabilities then that's already a step up from what they were doing originally. What I am not sure of is how to explain why stomping on the ground would hurt the ultralisk, more over, if it would damage friendly units around it. It's not magic in the world of starcraft, and something like stomp is hardly technologically advanced enough to be selective about who it is damaging with a stomp.

[WuHT]

Ultralisk simply need bonus life regen (coupled with their armour upgrade bonus). I mean it's got the same regeneration value for zergling to ultralisk..so a 50 hp ultralisk takes too damn long to get back to 400. If no body else likes the cannibalize mechanism..then just up the rate.

They'll be worth protecting instead of tossing em and letting em die for the other zergs to get through.

If the ultralisk had a "priority pathing" where it could clear through crowds easier (as well as make allied units move aside for it...that would help too.

[shirija]

Life regen? This is starcraft, just how much regen would one need to make an ultralisk worth its weight in resources? Units die fast and they are created just as fast, I highly doubt any pro player's going to pull ultralisks back to wait for them to regen... They aren't ghouls you know?

[Remy]

Melee splash is already taken care of by lurkers, it will be redundant.Â* Lurkers already take care of killing off small units very well.Â* Handing that role over to ultras when lurks had no problems doing it is like fixing what aint broken.

Ultras need not be made into furious killing machines because that is not their role.Â* But the main problem with them was that there was little incentive to get them other than to let them die first.Â* Ultras need to bring something else to the Zerg table and contribute to the Zerg army on a whole outside of higher direct damage output.

On the topic of regen, it's actually part of SC game design from the get-go.Â* The more skilled a player, the less likely to just throw away units.Â* Preserving your units to live as long as they can has always made a difference in SC and is what seperates skilled players from massers at the most basic level.Â* I've killed two marines with two lings from an early scouting confrontation before.

You don't pull back ultras for a different reason.Â* Having them die at the frontlines is the reason you get them in the first place.Â* You put them up there to die to buy you a window of opportunity for the rest of your troops.Â* So no, you don't pull back ultras, but not because it's not worth to do.Â* Even for Zerg, ultras are hardly a die fast make fast unit, they're on the top of our tech tree after all.

[Lord David]

Life regen? This is starcraft, just how much regen would one need to make an ultralisk worth its weight in resources? Units die fast and they are created just as fast, I highly doubt any pro player's going to pull ultralisks back to wait for them to regen... They aren't ghouls you know?


Of course they are! Just look at their presence on the tech tree of the Zerg, like the 2nd last place along with Defilers, plus given they're major cost in resources, you let them attack, do their part in kills, then retreat them to safety, it's much better than letting them die and having all that resource spent in making them lost.

[ImaGiNe.]

Of course they are! Just look at their presence on the tech tree of the Zerg, like the 2nd last place along with Defilers, plus given they're major cost in resources, you let them attack, do their part in kills, then retreat them to safety, it's much better than letting them die and having all that resource spent in making them lost.
How would you be able to pull an Ultralisk from the frontline once your army is clogging up the entrance? Remy has been giving some good points, yet some still contend them.

[shirija]

Preserving units are good for units like zerglings and hydras because regeneration is not too far off for their max hp. Ultralisk would require a very long time to heal, and it's almost impossible for any ultralisk to recover significantly enough to make it worthwhile, not when retreat usually means giving up a few units to die anyway.

Ultras having cleave is not to fulfill a role of aoe damage, it's simply to boost their overall offensive worth. No matter what you use, the only thing enabling them to live longer than a few seconds is swarm. But since swarm's aoe is fairly small, all one has to do is back up a little bit. What you do with that little bit of time between you casting the swarm and the withdraw of units from under it is what's important, and lurker's relocation takes much too long. Lurkers is much harder to use for offensive than ultralisks, and now with better interface, sci vessel massacring fields of lurker's is easier than ever. If ultralisks gets a heightened boost in offensive power, they would be able to tear through terran marines so they could actually damage the damned annoying siege tanks at last.

[burkid]

yeah, and that way they have more of a role then "die so the rest of our lings can get to them"

[Remy]

Offensive lurkering has already become one of the basic requirement of playing Zerg effectively. Â*It's your oppoent's job to make it as annoying for you as possible to properly position lurks. Â*And it's our job to do it no matter how annoying they make it for us.

It's quite the opposite on how you described the worth of ultras in terms of unit preservation. Â*If retreating ultras was an option, then it is worth more to retreat ultras than lings or hydras.

Even if you get lings and hydras back to full health, their max life pool is too low, it stops at 35 and 80 even if you had time for more. Â*If the situation required that you get ultras in the first place, it is because the max HPs of lings and hydras are not sufficient. Â*Read my opening post on "units that sucked," it is explained there.

1 HP is 1 HP no matter how much more you got to go til you hit full health. Â*The fact that ultras have a larger pool to store it all in one place is what gives them their worth.

Marines aren't the problem in tank heavy situations for Zerg, it's the tanks themselves. Â*Having ultras do splash damage doesn't help in this situation as tanks are usually not tightly packed anyway. Â*I'm not saying my ideas are the best because they certainly are not. Â*However, letting ultras help your army take down each tank faster before they melt to tank splash will be more valuable in this situation. Â*It goes along with what you get ultras for anyway, but now there is added incentive to justify their production.

[burkid]

Read my opening post on "units that sucked," it is explained there.


yeah i read that whole first post. interesting points you bring up

[Remy]

yeah i read that whole first post. interesting points you bring up


Wow, I'm impressed. I didn't think too many people actually read that whole thing. I have a serious problem with keeping my posts short for some reason. I just can't do it for the life of me.

[burkid]

it was pretty interesting, kept me occupied for a while. how much time do spend on "the math of starcraft"?

[Remy]

How much time do I spend on the math of SC? Was that what you were asking?

Back then when I was starting to get really heavy into SC, I memorized all stats for every single unit in the game for all races. I mean cost, HP, attack range, spell area, everything, even things like build time. I used to be human SC encyclopedia for all my friends. Now I'm older, married, have a son, and can't remember things as well LOL.

[burkid]

well you still do a damn fine job on some of these posts

[paragon]

With all these interesting ideas being brought up on how to change the ultralisk (most of them coming from WC3 abilities) I think it would be best to ditch the ultralisk altogether and make a new unit. A good unit. A scary mother****er.

[burkid]

so something that actually does its job?

[paragon]

yes that would be the main idea.

[Remy]

With all these interesting ideas being brought up on how to change the ultralisk (most of them coming from WC3 abilities) I think it would be best to ditch the ultralisk altogether and make a new unit. A good unit. A scary motherf**ker.


That's what I've always wanted, even before the announcement of SC2. I really want to be surprised with something badass. Hell, it's about time for that too. They should even name it just that, Zerg Scary Motherf**ker. OMG it's a swarm of SMFs!!!

Oh hey, even this forum is powered by Scary Motherf**kers. It says right at the bottom. How silly of me to have missed that.

[paragon]

That's what I've always wanted, even before the announcement of SC2. I really want to be surprised with something badass. Hell, it's about time for that too. They should even name it just that, Zerg Scary Motherf**ker. OMG it's a swarm of SMFs!!!

Oh hey, even this forum is powered by Scary Motherf**kers. It says right at the bottom. How silly of me to have missed that.

Haha so it is, so it is.

I couldn't even really imagine something that would be truely scary.

[Mike]

With all these interesting ideas being brought up on how to change the ultralisk (most of them coming from WC3 abilities) I think it would be best to ditch the ultralisk altogether and make a new unit. A good unit. A scary motherf**ker.


Creating a new unit, the "Zerg ultimate" in theory, wouldn't be that simple.. Ok, we've gathered some nice ideas in this thread which would lead to superultrabuffeduplisk, but how would this neat package actually look like? I mean, Utralisks are cool - giant monstrosities with bone blades, shredding smaller units to pieces. If we're talking a new guy here, what would that be?

First thing, this should be ground unit. Terran's and Protoss' ultimates are flyers, but Zerg are different. It should also be something big.. Not fast, deadly spitter (hydra-like) but something causing fear and doubt in it's unworty opponents.. Something like.. hell, I have no idea :). Anyone?

[paragon]

how about something that walks on two legs but hunched over. Like a cross between a tyrannosaurus and those evil apes from that bad movie Congo.

[Mike]

That was my initial though, but c'mon.. We don't want dinosaurs running around - tyrannosaurus would look stupid munching on a siege tank :). I was thinking something more like.. ground dragon? Like those from asian mythology, but without ability to fly - basically a giant lizard with dragon head, huge fangs and upped zergling speed 8)

[paragon]

so godzilla? No.
I was saying "a cross between a tyrannosaurus and those evil apes from that bad movie Congo." not just a tyrannosaurus.

[Remy]

I prefer western dragons over eastern dragons even though I'm Korean.

A dragon on all fours(prowling stance) and spikes in place of wings would work for me. That's kinda like what lings are I guess, but a motherf**king scary version would do it for me.

But I have another idea for a tier 3 unit, not really one to replace ultras though. Talk of larva and egg in the Units That Sucked! thread got me thinking, how about a larva producing unit? It'll basically be a mobile hatchery, with limited offensive capabilities. Or produce larva could be a cheap energy spell for a late caster unit, but I like the idea of larva maker unit better. Like larvae living on its back or something, like scorpions.

[paragon]

Something like those things in pitch black but bigger and more zergy. And have them be able to fly around and tear units apart as a swarm and all you see left is the skeleton that drops to the ground.

[Becka1988]

Ultras are HAWT!

[Remy]

Ultras are HAWT!


If by "HAWT!" you mean suck like hell then yea, I completely agree with you.

[burkid]

haha i just had a funny thought, burrowing ultralisks.

[PrivateJoker]

Ultras are HAWT!


If by "HAWT!" you mean suck like hell then yea, I completely agree with you.


Their tusks make them look like Tom Cruise, HAWT HAWT HAWT!

EDIT: I can't believe i justed nudged him/her on! :P

[PrivateJoker]

Wouldn't be interesting if their was a new upgrade, ala "hideous butterfly" morph that allows the ultra to become a fast higher powered FLYING melee unit! They would in a sense be very well protected against ground defenses, and ranged ground units. The Ultras could still also "land" which increases their movement speed drastically (like the speed upgrade in the original).

[PowerkickasS]

and the ultralisk also uses stun spore! ^.^ pikkkkAAchuuuuuu

[paragon]

How could an ultralisk possibly be a flying unit? It's like an elephant. And you can't get an elephant to fly.

[WuHT]

Just to dig up some points Remy and company.

Ultralisk are worth saving only if you "can" pull them out of the front lines. Since giving them burrow is out of the question (or is it)..i'm wondering if blizz can give them a special priority-pathing AI. Since they can't always get to where u want them to.. if you give your ultras a command and it'll force the nearby units to clear out of the way (allied? /enemies ?/smaller only ?) Even armies of exigo had a big orc-ogre thing that could swat away pesky smaller units as a command ability..so manipulating this into a special pathing feature would be ..alright ?

Thoughts ?

[burkid]

well if the ultra could just walk over the ling and hydras like the colossi do, it would make it infinitly more effective.

[PrivateJoker]

well if the ultra could just walk over the ling and hydras like the colossi do, it would make it infinitly more effective.


I was the one who came up with the "walk over" idea. :) It seems to be one of my more well supported theoretical ideas.

[paragon]

well if the ultra could just walk over the ling and hydras like the colossi do, it would make it infinitly more effective.

this would be nice but I still think the ultra should go.
And it raises another question. Which unit would walk over which... the ultralisk or the colossus?

[Piretes]

Priority pathing sounds great, but might be a bit hard to work out and would muscle micro out of the way... I think Ultras are usefull to launch in first, hold a barrier while the other units pour in single-file. The other way around, the smaller units get massacred one by one... Or is it just a whimsical strategy with no grounds to support?

[PowerkickasS]

t
this would be nice but I still think the ultra should go.
And it raises another question. Which unit would walk over which... the ultralisk or the colossus?

nobody?

ultralisk cant go.....
the 4 zerg trademark units....ling hydra ultra guardians

[burkid]

well if the ultra could just walk over the ling and hydras like the colossi do, it would make it infinitly more effective.


I was the one who came up with the "walk over" idea. :) It seems to be one of my more well supported theoretical ideas.

o yeah srry. i read that a few days ago on this topic, and i liked the idea so i thought id metion it, didnt mean to plagurize.

[paragon]

t
this would be nice but I still think the ultra should go.
And it raises another question. Which unit would walk over which... the ultralisk or the colossus?

nobody?

ultralisk cant go.....
the 4 zerg trademark units....ling hydra ultra guardians

Or the colossus steps on the ultra and pokes its eyes out.
I thought the zerg trademarks were zergling, hydralisk, overlord, mutalisk, guardian

[PowerkickasS]

not sure about mutalisk or guardians. they dont appear too often in the cinematics
who do you think would be the most memorable units to you when someone says 'zergs' to you?
if i wasnt a starcraft fanatic i would be thinking those 4. zerglings and hydras are obvious. guardians appear so many times in cinematics and are famous for being dumb flying crabs that cant shoot air, and hey who could forget the massive strongest ground ultralisk!?

[paragon]

i forget the ultralisks. and people usually don't make them. Even queens are more identifiable as a zerg thing than ultralisks are.

[burkid]

are queens even in any cinematics?

[paragon]

are queens even in any cinematics?

I think there are some in the one where a bunch of the zerg were going into the worm hole to auir.
And there were definately mutalisks there. And lots of overlords.

[burkid]

hmmm... i must have missed them.

[DontHate]

ah i really hope they don't take em out. they were so awesome lookin'

[paragon]

ah i really hope they don't take em out. they were so awesome lookin'

In that mutated elephant sort of way (just picture the kaiser blades being the tusks and the rest will fit)

[DontHate]

ah i really hope they don't take em out. they were so awesome lookin'

In that mutated elephant sort of way (just picture the kaiser blades being the tusks and the rest will fit)
I accually always thought of an ultra like a cat/lion, but after thinking about it an elephant does look more like it.

[[LightMare]]

imagine how much manpower and machine power is necessary to dig an ultralisk's grave... R.I.P.

[burkid]

are queens even in any cinematics?

I think there are some in the one where a bunch of the zerg were going into the worm hole to auir.
And there were definately mutalisks there. And lots of overlords.

i just watched that cinematic. all i saw was mutas, overlords, and guardians, no queens

[WuHT]

Priority pathing sounds great, but might be a bit hard to work out and would muscle micro out of the way... I think Ultras are usefull to launch in first, hold a barrier while the other units pour in single-file. The other way around, the smaller units get massacred one by one... Or is it just a whimsical strategy with no grounds to support?


O actually the main thought is that when your ultralisk are hurt..you can actuallly pull them back withtout the smaller units (that are now entereing the fray) to get in their way. Normally this happens..and you ultralisk just turns their back on the enemy...so they might as well go down fighting.

I mean the point is that by issuing a command..the other zerg units get a semi-override command that tells them to move out of the way (if they are in the way). Best way i can describe it is a more intelligent way of unborrowing stacked zerglings and watching them move around to clear space. I mean who can actually micro the rear zerg to move out of the way..as the pathing will tell them to fill up any empty spots as soon as they can.

[Remy]

Zerg staple units to me are ling, hydra/lurker, muta, and defilers.

[paragon]

are queens even in any cinematics?

I think there are some in the one where a bunch of the zerg were going into the worm hole to auir.
And there were definately mutalisks there. And lots of overlords.

i just watched that cinematic. all i saw was mutas, overlords, and guardians, no queens

Ah my mistake then. Maybe they were in one of those screens that they had before missions in the campaign.

[burkid]

are queens even in any cinematics?

I think there are some in the one where a bunch of the zerg were going into the worm hole to auir.
And there were definately mutalisks there. And lots of overlords.

i just watched that cinematic. all i saw was mutas, overlords, and guardians, no queens

Ah my mistake then. Maybe they were in one of those screens that they had before missions in the campaign.

that might be it.

[SirBaron]

The Ultra is just impractical. It must die and be replaced by some better unit.

There's a few units though that's a MUST in SC2, which is the 'ling (confirmed), hydra (confirmed......), muta (confirmed) and defiler (unconfirmed). The rest are just bonus, i can do without them.

Also if they add defiler and it doesn't have dark swarm, or they in any other way have changed dark swarm... blizzard is in for a rough night.

[Piretes]

Yeah the basis of Zerg is Ling/Hydra/Muta, Defiler's aren't even neccessary but add huge tactical options in the middle to late game. Would hate to see them go. Lurkers should stay too.
I do think that the Ultra is really a Zerg figurehead. Would hate to see it go, but Blizzard should buff or change it some way (they're geniuses, let them think it out) and make it more practical in your everyday skirmish.

[DontHate]

i accually thought lurkers were pretty useless. yea it'd suck to see em go.

[paragon]

i accually thought lurkers were pretty useless. yea it'd suck to see em go.

lurkers were great. remy will probably yell at you for that comment when he sees it.

[Piretes]

Lurkers are teh best when used correctly. I'm afraid I can't flatter myself about my Lurkerage, but some of the pro players commit genocides with those buggers..

[paragon]

Multiple lurkers means a marine extermination or zergling extermination.

[PrivateJoker]

*pops the cork of a bottle of champagne* Woo! Most trafficked thread in the Zerg unit forum!

;)

[Fenix]

My idea for the Ultralisk....

Ultra-Burgers! You can make 400 from a single unit! Throw on some lettuce, tomato, grill it up with a Perdition class flamethrower, and POW. Tastes great, AND less filling.

[Remy]

i accually thought lurkers were pretty useless. yea it'd suck to see em go.


No my brother, just no.  Lurkers are just sick.  But more importantly, they are very important and much needed to the Zerg.

I feel kinda lazy right now so let me just point out some of the important things.

Lurks are Zerg's only means of practical splash damage, this not counting mutas(which isn't splash damage) and infested terrans(which isn't practical).  But even better, lurkers themselves don't even deal true splash damage, it is actually AoE melee damage, which is tons better.

Lurks are Zerg's only means of attacking under cloak effect.  Even lurks are not true cloaked units, but without them Zerg has no cloak tech rush, or a cloak strat at all.  Meaning, there would be no direct way of taking advantage of and punishing opponents who are weak in detection capabilities.

If you combine the above two points, guess what, lurker is also the only unit in the entire game of SC that can deal splash damage while under cloak effect.  How sick is that?

Lurkers can return in SC2 unchanged, that's how good they were.

[Major Willy]

who is zarg unit? srsly

[paragon]

speaking of cloaked units and the zerg, do you think the succubus (if it exists and if it is really an infested ghost) would have some sort of cloak left. After all, kerrigan can still cloak.

[PowerkickasS]

actually i hate lurker's cost lol

[UchihaItachi0129]

The Ultra is just impractical. It must die and be replaced by some better unit.

There's a few units though that's a MUST in SC2, which is the 'ling (confirmed), hydra (confirmed......), muta (confirmed) and defiler (unconfirmed). The rest are just bonus, i can do without them.


T_T nooooooooooooooooo my ultralisk T_T on another note i like lurkers too ^.^

[PrivateJoker]

Yeah the basis of Zerg is Ling/Hydra/Muta, Defiler's aren't even neccessary but add huge tactical options in the middle to late game. Would hate to see them go. Lurkers should stay too.
I do think that the Ultra is really a Zerg figurehead. Would hate to see it go, but Blizzard should buff or change it some way (they're geniuses, let them think it out) and make it more practical in your everyday skirmish.
Defilers were one of the most useful spell casters in the game! They were very underused, but devestating against players that massed bcs and Carriers. They see a defiler = instant retreat. The fact that a spell caster that was so powerful could burrow and be invisible without detectors?? Creepy! Imagine if High Templars were cloaked like DT...except their spell could do almost 500 damage in a larger area, and they had an area spell that made their ranged attackers invincible to ranged enemies. Why weren't defilers used that much by most players? ;)

[mc2]

i accually thought lurkers were pretty useless. yea it'd suck to see em go.

The lurkers can be useless if used incorrectly, but it can also be deadly if used correctly, instead of the typical choke point, place them some place where it's not choked but the enemy will walk pass. and keep pressing the stop button until they walk right above your lurkers.

Back on the topic with ultralisks, they are very important if you tried to take down a terran base lined with siege tanks. Of course the best choices here are guardians and queens to take out tanks, but ultras can shield A LOT of damage from your zerglings and hydralisks, they can also take a pounding from the deadly psionic storm, so their high cost is for a reason, depends on if you know how to use it or not

[paragon]

See, the fact that guardians do the job of the ultralisk better then the ultralisk does shows how useful it isn't. Plus more ultralisks will die on an attack like than than guardians will. Unless they went full air which would make your ultralisks completely unable to defend themselves.

[stizur]

Wouldn't your Guardians be incapable of defending themselves as well?


Edited out quotes. Please read the forum rules and refrain from quoting unnecessarily.

[Fenix]

Ultra's are one Zerg unit I never myself using. I mean, they're pimp as heck, but they're too big to be of any use. Strong, but just....Bulky. In the original, they were worthless. In BW, with the upgrades....They were viable, but still crappy.


Lurkers pwn. I'll be mad if they're not in it.

[paragon]

Wouldn't your Guardians be incapable of defending themselves as well?

Um.. not if everything is a ground target. And you should always have AA defense around as well.

[PowerkickasS]

the ultralisk in sc2 should do pwnage damage ^.^

[paragon]

the ultralisk in starcraft 2 should be replaced by something cooler, more useful, something that eats babies.

[DontHate]

keep the ultras buff up attack and give it an ensnare abilitie. i think that would make it quite the usefull.
(not the queens ensnare, the raider's ensnare)
it keeps a ground unit in place and unable to move and an air unit is turned into a ground unit and cannot move .

[paragon]

so you want a tauren raider combo?

[DontHate]

sure why not?

[PowerkickasS]

an ultralisk with an entangle rocket pack? :O

[DontHate]

have it shoot out of it's mouth or something.

[paragon]

or maybe it spins a web with its kaiser blades...

[burkid]

^because that makes a ton of sense...?
you could just, oh i dont know, scrap the ultra and put a new unit that kicks ass and does its job in its place

[DontHate]

well i mean the new ultra won't be entirely useless against air n e mores. also it could like puke up green stuff sort of like the ensnare from the queen. IT'S PERFECT I TELLS YA!

[burkid]

no, its warcraft i tells ya.

[paragon]

thats what we in the business like to call ridiculous imbalance and overlapping responsibilities

[AvantGuardian]

The problem isn't with the Ultralisk; it's with the players who never properly learned to play it. You don't lead a charge with the Ultralisk. It's a mid-rank unit; keep him behind your Zerglings and mixed with the Hydralisks. Once the Zerglings have worn down the enemy's base defenses and have been squashed, then send the Ultralisk to the fore, covered by the Hydralisk at a range. Unfortunately I've noticed a tendency by those I play against to mistake the Ultralisk for the melee equivalent of the Siege Tank and use it in that fashion.

I agree the Ultralisk needs either a 'Step Over' or 'Stomp' ability to make it truly worth its production value, but it's hardly 'worthless'.

[burkid]

i think you are the first person that defended the ultra with something that makes some sense.

[Star-Crap]

ok heres my thoughts on this guy

1. make him stronger or more HP
2. Give him some sort of charging abilty that can make him hit a bunch of unit in his path (ex. like a rhino)
3. If not that give him splash damage. The man is huge I doubt he could could hit one target at a time in real life.

[Lemonparty]

Just a health boost seeing the Protoss have units with like 700 hp now. The Ultralisks, fully upgraded, is one of the best Zerg units, get 10 and you're pretty sure to eat your enemy, the only thing that can really kill them without sacrificing 2000 units is a caster (ie queen, High Templars, Dark Archon (especially) and Science Vessel).

[Itsmyship]

Don't forget the Arbiter! :P

[burkid]

the only thing that can really kill them without sacrificing 2000 units is a caster (ie queen, High Templars, Dark Archon (especially) and Science Vessel).

or... air? or tanks on the high ground?

[Lemonparty]

Yeah well if the guy is stupid enough to send Ultralisks without hydralisks/scourges/zerglings/lurkers he deserves to lose

[Major Willy]

ULTRALISKS MAKE ME WIN HUR HUR.

And light years away, aliens recognize the stupidity of a single Earthling and take it as a sign to attack, forcing the human race into a fight for their lives.
Cue real life Starcraft.

[paragon]

the ultralisk is a straight attack unit. it shouldn't get any abilities. so it should be scrapped.

[mc2]

I wouldn't mind if the ultra get one special ability, or at least the ability to burrow. Terran has only 2 units that does not have a secondary function. So maybe something similar can be done to the zerg?

Anyway, Ultralisks with the speed and carapace upgrade can also be used to "lure" enemy units onto your burrowed Lurkers. Since they are fast and extremely durable, it's a good unit to perform such thing. And it's also a good idea to keep pressing the "stop" button on your lurkers until they enemy units are right on top of them. Then you let them attack and it's a killer move. Just make sure they don't have detectors :P

[paragon]

burrowing would be fine. actually, burrowing would be cool. was the one in the ghost trailer burrowed? i think it was

[burkid]

if it was, we didnt see it unburrow.

[UchihaItachi0129]

I wouldn't mind if the ultra get one special ability, or at least the ability to burrow. Terran has only 2 units that does not have a secondary function. So maybe something similar can be done to the zerg?

Anyway, Ultralisks with the speed and carapace upgrade can also be used to "lure" enemy units onto your burrowed Lurkers. Since they are fast and extremely durable, it's a good unit to perform such thing. And it's also a good idea to keep pressing the "stop" button on your lurkers until they enemy units are right on top of them. Then you let them attack and it's a killer move. Just make sure they don't have detectors :P

yes ultralisks with burrow would be deadly and as for the lurker suggestion, why not just ally them until they are right over them. then unally. kinda like the allied mine trick.

[ShoGun]

My thoughts for the Ultralisk:
• Graphic change, and a name change, but similar purpose
• Should be able to move over smaller units.
• Should have an AoE attack against small ground units.
• Should have no AoE against large units and buildings, but deal more damage to them.
• Should not be able to move up and down cliffs (let the nydus worm do it's job, please! Plus, that would dismay the Zerg's basic strategy in more ways then one.)
• No trample ability, the AoE attack is good enough.
• No extra abilities where you have to click, that means more micro, micro for zerg = bad.
• To give the new ultralisk a new concept, perhaps it should have a passive ability that spawns 2 or more 'lesser' ultralisks when it is killed.
• Should cost slightly less in resources
• Upgrades should include speed bonus, and an AoE bonus (longer tusks, blades, etc.)

:thumbup:

*edit* Oh, forgot armor bonus for upgrades.

[josh]

ultralisks with burrow? nahh its impossible. if you even base it in real life. he would dig a really big hole, an obvious hole to be exact. but it will be real good if they have boomerang claws. well, that's just me.

[Remy]

The problem isn't with the Ultralisk; it's with the players who never properly learned to play it. You don't lead a charge with the Ultralisk. It's a mid-rank unit; keep him behind your Zerglings and mixed with the Hydralisks. Once the Zerglings have worn down the enemy's base defenses and have been squashed, then send the Ultralisk to the fore, covered by the Hydralisk at a range. Unfortunately I've noticed a tendency by those I play against to mistake the Ultralisk for the melee equivalent of the Siege Tank and use it in that fashion.


Actually, in any situation where you have the option to send in lings first and have them survive to do damage, you don't need to tech ultras. It is only when lings can't be sent in to reach their targets, that a Zerg player needs to tech ultras to have them head the assault.

There is no secretly wonderful use of ultras that make them a lovely choice. Ultras just suck.

[GuiMontag]

still, people have no idea how to use them effectively, they have the most hp out of all the ground units and yet people only use them in situations where there is enough firepower to get them killed easily...

[Remy]

There is no other use for ultras. They are the worst offensive option as far as damage output vs tech/resource/food req goes.

[UchihaItachi0129]

>< i loved the ultras T_T but then again i knew how to use them. so i'll miss them. i might have to alter some strategies.
R.I.P.
Ultralisk
You had a good run. (literally) I'll miss you T_T

[josh]

12 ultralisk can in fact destroy a whole enemy base even when there are air units on the way. its a real risk and real expensive but it's most effective.

[UchihaItachi0129]

i hope they make a unit that kinda acts like the ultralisk. i really liked them. they were awesome ^^ just send in 24 and the opponent just leaves XD unless it's terran in which case they just lift ><

[Ych9]

If the Ultralisk are going to get axed, I'm sure Blizzard will make another unit that has a similiar role, but with a much meaner and cooler look to it. So I wouldn't be too worried about this.


Edited out quotes. Please read the forum rules and refrain from quoting unnecessarily.

[ShoGun]

Actually, in any situation where you have the option to send in lings first and have them survive to do damage, you don't need to tech ultras. It is only when lings can't be sent in to reach their targets, that a Zerg player needs to tech ultras to have them head the assault.

There is no secretly wonderful use of ultras that make them a lovely choice. Ultras just suck.


The more I think about it, the more I believe all that ultralisks really need is the ability to walk over small units. Lets say if an enemy Terran has created a tough defensive barrication at a choke point, and it is impossible for your zerglings or other smaller units to survive long enough to deal damage. That’s your cue to start sending in ultralisks (or the like). The ultras could do heavy damage to single targets, and with the ability to walk over smaller units, they could reach the target easier; all they have to do is survive long enough to destroy the frontline barrication, and let the little guys finish the rest. So really, all the ultras need is more maneuverability, and expendability, and they can be VERY useful.

[Remy]

If "walking over" means that ultras can occupy the same ground space as other ground units, overlapping them like air units do, then it could increase the effectiveness of ultras. Better maneuverability would definitely help.

However, there is something else you must consider, that is whether or not ultras will "shield" the other units under them from harm. If it is only an improvement in maneuverability, and units under it still suffer damage, then it is not necessarily better.

Having ultras stack on top of your other ground units will actually make you suffer more damage from splash attacks and spells. With psi storm, the walking over doesn't help, your other units will still die. The large size of ultras that used to warrant the need to cast more number of storms is no more because now you can still hit as many units as you could before AND the ultra.

Instead of tanking siege tank fire, the ultras will eat the hits but all the units under and around it will still eat the splash, increasing the number of units from that which would normally suffer damage. And since ultras can't burrow, it will be even worse in the case of irradiate, ultras will be prime targets as they will ensure the highest number of effected units on the ground.

You could micro to counter some of that, but in that case, not only is it not an improvement, it will make the ultra even worse. But if you do go with ultras shielding damage for units under it, you have to consider the crazy scenario with units under ultras and ultras under darkswarm.

That is not to say that Blizzard can't make "walk over" work if they wanted to, but it really won't be the simple solution that will make ultras a lovely choice in one move.

[ShoGun]

Unless ultralisks could act like a building, absorbing the full radius of a splash attack so that no other unit around the ultralisk would be harmed. :thumbup:

[Remy]

In that case ultras under darkswarm would most likely be quite overpowered and imbalanced.

[kingsky123]

you know what ? give ultralisks flight and whala :P

[PowerkickasS]

i dunno why people diss ultralisks so badly :( i love em and their max 6 armor ^_^ gg unupgraded zealots and marines

[DontHate]

first of all, the ultralisk is pretty bulky so it has a hard time getting to fight, such as the goon. Also, it has lower damage and finnaly, who would have unupgraded zealots and marines when you can get ultralisks?

[PowerkickasS]

i think i might still have the replay. 3v3bgh everyone totally ignored me while i put full resources on carapace upgrades first then tech. my neighboring terran player only had big masses of m&m&f w/o engibay and right when he was attacking he found 2 ultralisks to be abit much to handle :D (though i think my team still lost anyways :()

but i was kinda half joking :P


Edited out quotes. Please read the forum rules and refrain from quoting unnecessarily.

[marinepower]

If amassed similarly to BC's or even guardians, 12 ultras can destroy a base extremely easily, even if it's teaming with air. +5 armor is quite a lot, and if your opponent (like me) decides to go mass infantry, the most an ultra can take is 3 damage from a marine while killing it in 2 hits. not bad.

I really like the idea of an ultra being able to trample other units lol, it kinda reminds me of a train or a snowplow.
Guy:GET OFF THE ROAD!
Ultra:Stomps on your brand new car, allowing you just enough time to run away before it explodes.
Guy: dang women drivers... ;D 8)

[ShoGun]

In that case ultras under darkswarm would most likely be quite overpowered and imbalanced.


How so?

[mc2]

If a Dark Swarm spell is casted over a group of units, ranged units' attack will not do any damage to any unit that's inside the spell. Only melee units will do damage to units inside the spell.

The mechanics of dark swarm is that ranged unit cannot see anything inside the spell, so all of their attacks would miss its target. But since melee attacks is a very small distance from the enemy, the units can see its target so it will do damage

So in the ultralisk's case, a dark swarm casted over the ultralisks mean all ranged units like BCs, Carriers, Tanks, Dragoons, Hydralisks, static defence will not do any damage when attacking the ultras. But since Ultralisks are melee, they will rip damage. So they can be overpowered, especially when coupled with zerglings.

[PowerkickasS]

mc2 read their previous posts cause atm you're lost on what they're talking about :P

[UchihaItachi0129]

I really like the idea of an ultra being able to trample other units lol, it kinda reminds me of a train or a snowplow.
Guy:GET OFF THE ROAD!
Ultra:Stomps on your brand new car, allowing you just enough time to run away before it explodes.
Guy: dang women drivers... ;D 8)

it's godzilla all over again :D

hmmm i've already said this but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo my ultralisks T_T damn you blizzard DAMN YOU >< :upset: >:( :bad: :( :no: damn you ><

[DontHate]

splash can still hit anything in a ds. Not sure why tho.

[PowerkickasS]

dark swarm doesnt cancel range damage
dark swarm only makes range attacks miss
missed splash attacks still splash o.O

[FlyingTiger]

thats right... it makes range attacks miss and air attacks miss. I dunno about the splash damage, but powerkickass is prolly right.

[TerranGod]

bah...ultralisk + dark swarm is pwnage no doubt
in sc2 i think they should be stronger, and less stupider...cause in sc they were...dum as dragoons

[Remy]

In that case ultras under darkswarm would most likely be quite overpowered and imbalanced.

How so?


Because now you have two levels of filters, or damage buffer.

First, you block out all direct range attacks with the darkswarm.  Traditionally you would use splash damage and spells do counter this, but with the ultra idea, you can't even touch the underlying units before you get rid of the ultras.  And even after you do finally kill the ultras, you're still left with the other units under darkswarm in full health.

Basically even melee can't do a thing because lurkers now have complete damage protection.

You have to realize you're taking away the weaknesses of the lesser units, which have very high damage output, by giving them a double layer of protective buffer.  They won't just be sitting there, they will be doing damage while you can take out the ultras under the dark swarm, then the units under the ultras under the darkswarm.

And about splash under darkswarm, the splash portion of ranged damage is still applied AFAIK.

[PowerkickasS]

First, you block out all direct range attacks with the darkswarm.  Traditionally you would use splash damage and spells do counter this, but with the ultra idea, you can't even touch the underlying units before you get rid of the ultras.  And even after you do finally kill the ultras, you're still left with the other units under darkswarm in full health

i dont see the OP in that

[Remy]

Most things Terran are useless against darkswarm because they are all ranged.  The only things a Terran can do to counter darkswarm is bat splash, tank splash, and spells.

But now you're throwing a kink in the system.  The Terran can't even resort to the few methods that they have in order to deal damage to units in darkswarm.  They can only use those methods to try to kill off ultras, which isn't all that great when it counts, because that's what ultras were made to withstand.

Cracklings, hydras, and lurks do excellent damage.  Offensively, they are all power houses.  With the damage shielding ultra idea, it will mean that Terrans can't do anything to stop a Zerg offense late game.  Because it won't matter what Terrans do, a Zerg is almost guaranteed to be able to steadily deal heavy damage.

I've said this elsewhere, but let me explain what OP is.  Something is OP when it generally has a high success rate, and requires a much greater effort to counter/stop it than its original execution.  This is true for almost all games with competitive multiplayer content.

[DontHate]

what, what?!!? I thought melee could hit things in DS. i'm not a zerg player so sorry if i'm wrong.

[burkid]

it can. what remy is saying is terran has no melee units, so they only have splash attacks to hit units under darkswarm.

[DontHate]

I thought firebats were melee, well they are splash too so, ah i donno.

[burkid]

no, firebats have a range (2 i think) its just so short that it looks like melee. its the splash that lets them hit in darkswarm

[TerranGod]

no, firebats have a range (2 i think) its just so short that it looks like melee. its the splash that lets them hit in darkswarm


they are still counted as melee
i just tried it out with my bro it works
1 fire vs 1 hydra
the hydra got hit

[burkid]

the hydra got hit by the splash, the firebat is not melee.you can have a firebat hitting a melee unit from just outside melee range. try rushing a zealot at a firebat. the zealot will have to move a bit further before it can attack.
remy, back me up on this.

[Star-Crap]

the hydra got hit by the splash, the firebat is not melee.you can have a firebat hitting a melee unit from just outside melee range. try rushing a zealot at a firebat. the zealot will have to move a bit further before it can attack.
remy, back me up on this.


im not remy but this cat knows wut hes talking about. Firebat anit melee

[Remy]

TOTAL EDIT: It is as Burkid, firebats are range 2 concussive splash. However...

I originally posted something else, but after some consideration, I think firebats might infact be "ranged melee."

I always just had the various splash units in the game in mind when considering what could hit me in darkswarm. Naturally I've always just classified bats as ranged splash cuz of their range of 2. But if you think about it, sieged tanks actually can't deal damage to lone targets in dark swarm like bats, so the SC must treat bat's flame attack as melee. It only makes sense that way.

So if you think about it, it's really both range and melee. Or, ranged melee.

But anyway, bats are useless in the damage shielding ultralisk idea under darkswarm scenario. They do pathetic 25% concussive damage vs ultras, and lurks under the ultras would wipe them clean.

[PowerkickasS]

Most things Terran are useless against darkswarm because they are all ranged. The only things a Terran can do to counter darkswarm is bat splash, tank splash, and spells.

lol........no
the only thing to counter swarm is running

[Remy]

There is also spider mines but not really viable.  Making vultures that late in the game just for a chance at planting 3 mines per vulture is not that good of an idea against the detectors-galore-race.

And there is SCVs, but that's even worse.

[PowerkickasS]

actually i dont think scvs can hit in dark swarm either (as experienced while playing one of those crash maps lol). hey spider mines could work very nice!                              once

[Ych9]

After the showcase of the new Terran unit/mechanic, I think that the Ultralisk is going to be totally revamped. As for any ideas, I don't have any right now because I was thinking of the Ultralisk to work kind of like the Viking unit for the Terran, in that it can morph between 2 modes. But then, Blizzard is trying to make each race/mechanic unique to itz own race. So I don't think Ultralisk will get something like that. So as of now, I really don't know what the revamped Ultralisk is going to look like.

[Remy]

SCVs deal damage in darkswarm AFAIK.

And I really don't want ultras, I want something new.

[PowerkickasS]

AFAIK?

[UchihaItachi0129]

But if you think about it, sieged tanks actually can't deal damage to lone targets in dark swarm like bats, so the SC must treat bat's flame attack as melee. It only makes sense that way.

So if you think about it, it's really both range and melee. Or, ranged melee.

umm i'm pretty sure sieged siege tanks can deal dark swarm. maybe only too buildings though O.o. i play random unit battle A LOT and whenever i get a defiler i always plague+swarm their base (pylon...well in come other version it isnt a pylon but that's not the point) and seiged tank do deal damage to the pylon. i'm not 100% sure that they actually can 1) it's in ums they can make triggers 2) there may have been other units dealing the damage 3) i could have imagined this all up. though i do remember something like this.

for those of you thinking the plague was doing the damage...i'm pretty sure if the life drops down by more than 1-5 each second. it's not the plague. i'll test it out later.

[burkid]

what he meant is only the splash will hit under darkswarm, so units wont get directly hit by the tanks attack.

[PowerkickasS]

omg dejavu. same argument, different website

here's a crack down of dark swarm:
-all ground units inside dark swarm cannot get directly hit by any ranged attacks from anywhere
-all ground units can get splashed, depending on the enemy unit. usually this is always the case
-lurkers, reavers, mines and firebats' main attack, melee or not, IS a splash weapon itself so dark swarm wouldnt affect the damage these units are suppose to deal to the ground units inside it
-burrowed units can avoid all splash damage whilst inside a swarm except against from the ones above