Immortal = Imbalanced?

[ApostleOfGod]

"Protoss Immortals' shields are very effective against Siege Tanks" http://www.starcraft2.com/features/protoss/index.xml?tab=phoenix

In SC1, Dragoons (known as Immortals in SC2) were highly vulnerable to siege tank's siege mode attacks, usually dying within 3 hits. However, now that the Immortal is more resistant to the siege tanks than before, will the battles between Immortals vs. Siege tanks become imbalanced?

Imo, I would agree to more resistance to a certain limit, but I think that Dragoons are great units, especially when in a force, and they require high micro skills to work efficiently. By nerfing the Siege tank's effectiveness towards Dragoons, I think Immortals may be the easy key to game domination (vs. Terrans). Any thoughts, comments, disagreements, or doubts?

[Lord David]

I'm sure the Immortal only uses it's special shield ability whilst the Siege Tank is in Siege mode. So any good player would just un-siege the tanks and attack using normal tank damage. (that would hopefully not have the Immortals use their special shields) :good:

[coalescence]

Marines own Immortals, and every sane player sends marines with siege tanks, happened in sc1, will do the same now in sc2.

[PrivateJoker]

Imo, I would agree to more resistance to a certain limit, but I think that Dragoons are great units, especially when in a force, and they require high micro skills to work efficiently. By nerfing the Siege tank's effectiveness towards Dragoons, I think Immortals may be the easy key to game domination (vs. Terrans). Any thoughts, comments, disagreements, or doubts?


In a stupidly over-simplified sense, Siege tanks would be weak against Immortals, however with unit mix, you would find that marines, reapers attacks would penetrate the high powered shields, rendering the immortals weak to the most basic infantry units, cost wise.

[wuffle]

In the gameplay video the man says they are activated by powerful attack. The reason reapers owned them is they didn't ACTIVATE their shields. Therefore, if any heavy fire hits the dragoons, its basically immune to all incoming fire. Doesn't matter if it's marines or Battle Cruisers. Thats why mixes wouldn't wrk against them. ie: Marines and Tanks.

[PrivateJoker]

In the gameplay video the man says they are activated by powerful attack. The reason reapers owned them is they didn't ACTIVATE their shields. Therefore, if any heavy fire hits the dragoons, its basically immune to all incoming fire. Doesn't matter if it's marines or Battle Cruisers. Thats why mixes wouldn't wrk against them. ie: Marines and Tanks.


Interesting point, if the shields are in fact activated and will repel attacks until destroyed, then this may motivate players to more carefully micro their siege units, meaning if the Immortals attack they take the tanks out of siege mode. However I am not certain that the activation mode means anything other than protection from the high powered attacks.

[PowerkickasS]

they're not like goons. they're rapid-fire and don't shoot while running and not exactly long range either (exemplified in the presentation anyhow) so now goon-micro seems forever lost :(
they still own reapers imo and could take advantage of reaper's short range, but probably not marines.
but imo if the siege tanks were buffed up, the chances for goon+lots overpowering rines+tanks looks even grimmer zealots are "meant" to be weak and immortals cant meatshield tank's firepower if marines are on the front lines.
but atm the tanks seem horrendously weak in health and damage, and for now I would just mass zealots and charge-bomb them.

EDIT: come to think of it ya immortals are rigged =/
zealots + tank splash = byebye marines! then poor ol tanks gonna have to get close and personal with the remaining immortals :(
But I'd still go mass zealots ;)

[liMePod]

I think by the phrase "only activated by a very powerful attack" means explosive damage. and cause seige tanks are explosive in and out of seige mode, they'd be pretty helpless on their own.

But, as commented previeously, any sane player sends marines with seige tanks. and the demo is just that: a demo, so they only demonstrate one unit at a time, showing strengths and weaknesses,

eg. collossus is awsome againts 'lings, but muta kill it in seconds. (I belive thats because it can only attack ground), warp rays beat battlecruises and buildings, pwned by marines.

[JBL]

Don't worry... even if immortal totally own siege tanks.. thats exactly what blizzard want.. they want a rock paper scissor game

the 20 minutes video is all about this

[AntiTossWeapon]

You can not think of the immortal imbalanced because the terran at the moment has 4 units presented.I am shure that blizzard will show many methods for the terran 2 deal with themÂ* :).And in the video the siges manage to distroy 2 immortals,so there not so immortal :D

[capthavic]

In the gameplay video the man says they are activated by powerful attack. The reason reapers owned them is they didn't ACTIVATE their shields. Therefore, if any heavy fire hits the dragoons, its basically immune to all incoming fire. Doesn't matter if it's marines or Battle Cruisers. Thats why mixes wouldn't wrk against them. ie: Marines and Tanks.


Hmm I thought that their pin prick attacks go through the shield regardless whether the immortals were under heavy fire or not. It will be interesting to see if you are correct.

[Ych9]

The Protoss will of course sound very imbalanced ATM because of all the new toys that they acquired in SC2.
Simply put, if we pit the Protoss from SC2 against the Terran and Zerg from SC1, Protoss would simply annihilate them.

But we have to remember this is SC2. Since we already learned most if not all the Protoss new toys and mechanics, of course they are going to sound overpowered atm. Once we learn more about the Terran and Zerg, I'm sure it will even out the odds.

[[LightMare]]

but immortals can be EASILY countered by any other unit. we saw in the video. the reapers smoked them

[PrivateJoker]

but immortals can be EASILY countered by any other unit. we saw in the video. the reapers smoked them


No thats not good enough, in order to balance the game Blizz must remove the Immortals ability to walk and fire. Also they should remove its shields so it instantly dies in one hit. This will help balance out the unfairness that is the Immortals invincible shields. We all know this would create a perfect balance between the Protoss, Zerg, and Terran in Starcraft2. :powerup:

[[LightMare]]

not a chance man. siege tanks have been the dominators for a while. there are new units that make up for the uber shields. if reapers aren't good enough for you, then wraiths, marines, ghosts, vultures, goliaths, etc.

[PrivateJoker]

not a chance man. siege tanks have been the dominators for a while. there are new units that make up for the uber shields. if reapers aren't good enough for you, then wraiths, marines, ghosts, vultures, goliaths, etc.


Trust me, Protoss isn't the only race that is getting tons of new units. Terran will be overhauled as well. Its really very inappropriate to speculate about race balance, seeing as that we have no idea what the other two races will be like.

[[LightMare]]

that exactly what i said. i said terran will get tons of new units that will make up for the Immortals sexy shield

[PrivateJoker]

that exactly what i said. i said terran will get tons of new units that will make up for the Immortals sexy shield


Ghosts will have emping machine guns. ;)

[Oiyzas]

but immortals can be EASILY countered by any other unit. we saw in the video. the reapers smoked them


No thats not good enough, in order to balance the game Blizz must remove the Immortals ability to walk and fire. Also they should remove its shields so it instantly dies in one hit. This will help balance out the unfairness that is the Immortals invincible shields. We all know this would create a perfect balance between the Protoss, Zerg, and Terran in Starcraft2. :powerup:


You're a funny guy, Joker.

And, when he said they were only activated by heavy fire, he meant they only worked against heavy fire. Check the profile on starcraft2.com for Immortals- it clearly says that their shields only stop heavier artillery, allowing small arms fire to come through unimpeded.

[FlyingTiger]

So I'm bumping up this really old thread to post this quote by Karune

Howitzers also angle up :)

At the moment, if Immortals were to be anti-air, they would be far too powerful. In terms of balance, we really want to make sure you don't have one type of unit be able to kill all others. Currently, the Immortals are vulnerable to rapid fire units and air units. On the other hand, they absolutely own armored units, including Stalkers and Siege Tanks.

So it doesn't seem the immortal will be imba and I can see why. The thread convinced me that having it as a anti-siege is good enough for the unit. I'll just make the stalker the actual replacement for the dragoon and I'll feel better lol.

http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=9699&p=1&#post9699

[AdmiralAckbar]

Immortals do not replace dragoons, stalkers do. The stalkers probably will be "highly vulnerable to siege tank's siege mode attacks" and probably will die within 3 hits. Building only immortals will not be the key to easy victory against terran, just to easy victory against an idiot that only builds siege tanks.

[hominiddd]

ok I just asked the question in another post if the immortal can attack air. I guess from your quote flying tiger that the immortal use to be able to shoot air but is now nixed!?

[WuHT]

yeah


The thing is that Stalkers's mobility will be simliar to the dragoons, constantly manuevering into a better position while maintaining decent firepower and range. Though it doens't seem that Stalkers have that habit of "wasting shots on dying units" problem as noticeable as dragoons, they compensate with the blink ability that SEEMS like it can close the gaps on siege tanks. However, Blink seems like a crummy escape move against siege tanks defending a position because of the instant hit factor will likely track blinkers really well (i hope so).

[ImaGiNe.]

Here is what Karune had to say:

At the moment, if Immortals were to be anti-air, they would be far too powerful. In terms of balance, we really want to make sure you don't have one type of unit be able to kill all others. Currently, the Immortals are vulnerable to rapid fire units and air units. On the other hand, they absolutely own armored units, including Stalkers and Siege Tanks.

[AcE_01]

i just thought of something funni

5 BC, 1 immortal

BC's: Good day commander. Yamato guns ready....FIRE!!

immortal get hit hard....he still stand

immortal: AHAHAHAHAHAHAH TAKE THAT SUCKERS!!!!

ROFL!!!

lol...

[FlyingTiger]

@imagine:
lol i quoted that! :P


ok I just asked the question in another post if the immortal can attack air.  I guess from your quote flying tiger that the immortal use to be able to shoot air but is now nixed!?


Yeah I think that's correct. From what I heard from Meloku's experience, he did see the immortals being anti air. Now, from Karune's quote, it is anti-air no more. Some reason though I really thought the Immortals never had anti-air. If that's the case, Karune is just reassuring why immortals don't have anti-air capabilities.


Immortals do not replace dragoons, stalkers do. 


yea that's what I believed anyways; however, the story involving the Immortals make it seem like it replaced the dragoon as shown here (from starcraft2.com immortal page):

The remaining dragoons have become the immortals, refitted with twin phase disruptors and hardened energy shields that can shrug off the most powerful weapon strikes - though at the cost of leaving them more vulnerable to the pinprick attacks of lesser foes. The heavily armed and shielded immortals give critical fire support to the ferocious legions of zealots by eliminating enemy artillery and ranged attackers, allowing the zealots to close in and complete their work of destruction.

[AcE_01]

they have uber shileds cause its the only Dragoon race left! i mean...the place where they made dragoons are no more!

lol...

[Sikhye23]

yea i never liked the immortal, because seriously who DOESN'T like seeing dragoons in pools of blood from siege tank blasts, ahem but another reason was that not only is the siege tank now nothing to the immortal, but what about a nuke blast? also i'm assuming that the ghost's lockdown disables the shield? (does ghost even have lockdown anymore?)

[FlyingTiger]

(does ghost even have lockdown anymore?)


No it doesn't seem like the ghost won't have lockdown anymore. I'm not sure they are even considering putting it back. Anyone?

[kuvasz]

Immortals not being able to attack air is plain stupid. Look at its animation at the official site, it aims upwards with its 'arms' fitted with phase disruptors (that were able to target air in SC) so nothing justifies Blizzard if they plan to make the immortal useless against air :no:

[Sikhye23]

wait you used a double negative, you mean the ghost doesn't have lockdown? crap are you kidding me? how else am i suppose to take down annoying swarming carriers if i don't have lockdown? the lockdown was so useful, id use emp + lock down and i didn't even have to yamato. how can they take away lockdown? the ghost is utterly useless. You might as well remove its ability to nuke things because seeing as you have to build a SILO anyways to use a nuke basically if u don't have silos all you can do is cloak your ghosts and snipe, which you probably wont even have time to do in a frantic game. you might as well have the silo target things itself. ... jeez, lol i can't believe they'd do that.

[Unentschieden]

It is quite different now. Ghosts are now usefull in combat since they gained Snipe, and you don´t need Silos anymore the Ghosts Techbuilding now stores nukes. I actually wonder how they balance it since the "dot" is now much easier to hide in a 3d enviroment.

[Hunter]

The immortal has now other weaknesses.. For example some Bunkers of marines will quickly destroy them.

[Sikhye23]

It is quite different now. Ghosts are now usefull in combat since they gained Snipe, and you don´t need Silos anymore the Ghosts Techbuilding now stores nukes. I actually wonder how they balance it since the "dot" is now much easier to hide in a 3d enviroment.


Everytime i look at the ghost use its weapon, it actually looks like its sniping, and so whenever i saw it fire, i thought that thats what he was doing: sniping. So i find the new ability kind of redundant, but i guess overlord hunting and combat against zerg and protoss priority units is much easier now. But honestly, since the snipe only works against biological units, do we really need more of that? The raw fire power of terran ground units like the tank seems enough to take out the whole spectrum of biological units (ground anyways). Once again since the immortal is mechanical the ghost's snipe is useless against it as is the tank blast, and the removal of lockdown certainly doesn't help.

Also, since this thread is about the immortal and about how it leaves the tank nullified against it, it further opens up the need for a strong anti-mechanical ability for terran. Removal of lockdown opens up a huge niche not only for immortals, but for powerful protoss ships as well (warp rays, and a locked down phase prism would be an awesome counter against the newfound mobility of the protoss). which would be why the concern arises that the immortals are imbalanced. Lockdown would've been a crippling tactic against immortals balancing its power, and the new mobility of the protoss in general. (not only phase prisms but now that i think about it the stalker's blink.)

Naturally , blizzard isn't done, so i'm not quite worried, but with the removal of lockdown, terrans need a strong replacement for it seeing the introduction of new units like the immortal. I'd rather see the ghost as a specialist than a unit engaged in combat roles, but ultimately this is a balance issue and blizzard rocks at balancing.

[ItzaHexGor]

Bump again, but!

Immortals shield are activated by any attack that has over 10 damage, and when they are hit by this attack they only take 10 damage from it. So, the maximum damage that an Immortal can take in a single attack is 10. THIS is why weaker attacks are effective against it. It's because they attack faster and still do the maximum damage that is able to be done against the Immortal. For example, say Reapers do 5 damage and attack 3 times per second, and a Siege Tank does 60 damage and attacks every 4 seconds. Despite both of these attacks ending up doing the same amount of damage per second (15 dps), the Reaper's attack of 5 doesn't trigger the shields, so they keep their 15 dps, however because the Siege Tanks attack is stronger and therefore slower, its attack, instead of doing the usual 60 damage every 4 seconds (15 dps), it is reduced to 10 damage every 4 seconds (2.5 dps). This is why Immortals are strong against the strong and weak against the weak.

[TerranGod]

Marines own Immortals, and every sane player sends marines with siege tanks, happened in sc1, will do the same now in sc2.


lol i didnt
for me it was goliath and tanks :P
goliath take over air and tank take over land

immortals arent that cheap knowing the fact they cant attack air
but my question is this
will the shield be for air too?

[BnechbReaker]

nice explanation HexGor, couldn't have said better myself ;)

[kuvasz]

I'm almost certain that the Immortal's hardened shield does not allow any kind of attack to deal more than 10 damage, including Air-to-Ground.

edit: ahem (http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=237.msg51972#msg51972)

[BnechbReaker]

what about yamato and nuke, to resist those would be totally imba

[kuvasz]

I'd say let them resist Yamato but die from nuke like the rest.

But you wouldn't use Yamato on an Immortal anyway as they can't attack air.

[Vindicatormsc]

i believe some abilities will not be affected by the shield.i mean,it would be totally broken to let immortals survive Yamato Blasts and Nukes.

[TerranGod]

i say let them get hit full damage by melee and special abilities

[DKutrovsky]

marines/medics always go with tanks. M&M > Immortals, also, if you pop a EMP shockwave to the immortals before the battle and they come with 0 shield, the hardened shields dont activate.

Vikings/Cobras/reapers/banshees > immortals aswell

Immortals > solo sieged tanks, thats it.

[BirdofPrey]

Remember though the hardened shield just reduces the damage not prevents it. The yamato and nuke have enough damage to burn off the shield melt the armor and kill the squishy inside

[elite-guard]

once again, i havta say im new, so i didn't read the previous 3 pages of post. though I'll say what I know about this topic.

Immortals shields are currently made to resist any attack over 10 damage. This means the immortal can at most take only 10 damage. So whether it be a seige tank blast or a nuke, they can only take 10 damage because of their shields. For this reason, marines are more affective because they have a higher attack rate doing less than 10 damage.

also, btw, there is no more explosive attacks anymore. It has been changed to bonuses against "light" "armored" "fleshy" "something I dont rmember".

So, the immortal IS imba right now. Blizzard even said so. It's too strong against terran as of now, so it most likely will be nerfed a bit. It's a protoss heavy tank unit, much better than the dragoon.

[DKutrovsky]

Meh, immortals do not scare me, although 10 damage is really low, i mean a hydra did 10 damage, is it going to activate vs hydras lol ?

1 Immortal > 5-6 hydras lol

I think 20 damage (base damage, not considering upgrades). And not 750 hp, but like 450 or so.

[BirdofPrey]

I myself think that the hardened shield would work better if it just reduced the damage to a percentage instead of an amount.

Make the immortal take 20% of the damage so most of s siege tank shot will be stopped but it will still do more damage than a Thor and a nuke and yamato will still have sufficient force to kill the immortal inside of the shield. Also for the nuke it emits and EM Pulse which would take out the Immortals shield anyway.

[ijffdrie]

i think that the immortal shields on ly listen to the base damage, not the total damage

[ItzaHexGor]

Congrats, elite-guard, maybe you SHOULD read the previous pages before posting (and being new is no excuse, your just lazy), you just said the same thing that I'd already explained.
Anyway, I thought that the Hardened Shields were a Passive Ability that that the Immortals had, therefore, they still activate when it has no Shield left. Some people have been saying that EMP Shockwave would get rid of their Shields, therefore the Hardened Shields would not activate, but I reckon that Hardened Shield should be a new technology that the Protoss have invented that is not affected by or related to the normal Shield. So even if the Immortal has been EMP'd (which removes all of their Shield) then Hardened Shield will still activate.
I do like BirdofPrey's idea very much though... Any attack that is over 10 damage is reduced to 20% of the original damage (If I understood it correctly). It makes a lot of sense, in that the more powerful the attack is, the more powerful the shield generated is. However it would have to be reduced to a minimum of 10, otherwise you'll have attacks of 11 which would only just activate the Hardened Shield, doing 2-3 damage.

[BirdofPrey]

Actually I think the hardened shields are linked to the regular shields and are depleted with them. In the gameplay video a couple of immortals did die and if you watch closely their shields are depleted and the hardened don't activate. Thus meaning when the regular shield has been depleted after several shots the hardened shield doesn't work either. It isn't a separate system just an improvement to an existing one

[Wlck742]

All the hardened shields do is reduce the damage of any attack to 10. No more, no less. It's almost like a huge armor upgrade.

[BirdofPrey]

A huge and variable armor upgrade. The reason I suggested making it a percentage is nukes and heavy hitter spells like yamato and psi storm would still be able to harm the unit due to the fact that the massive damage even when reduced to 20-25% would still be enough to burn out the shield, while siege tanks and heavy hitting units will still have reduced enough damage for the immortal to survive a short time and kill said unit.

How it is now it doesn't matter if you hit it with a tank shell or railgun as it all does the same damage so then what is the use of fielding a high damage unit against it when a medium damage does just as much. Also nuke and yamato become a problem being either reduced to 10 damage which is a load of crap or totally ignoring the shield which is also kinda stupid

[darkone]

a nuke almost doing no damage, that would almost make an immortal, immortal almost

[BirdofPrey]

That would be imbalanced

[Wlck742]

Well, I seriously doubt that abilities will be affected by the hardened shields. It's much more balanced if abilities ignore the shield. It might be a little stupid, but having the shield reduce damage is worse. Far as I know, abilities ignored armor in the first game, and the hardened shields are basically an armor upgrade.

[Vindicatormsc]

yes abilities should ignore the shield.it's only fair,otherwise every immortal would come out alive against a nuke,and that's just wrong...

[BnechbReaker]

It's a protoss heavy tank unit, much better than the dragoon.


game play wise stalkers are the new dragoon, they have almost the same stats plus the bonus blink ability. immortal, on the other hand is a completely new unit design to take on heavy ground armor like tank, ultra and twilight archon. the immortal have much more hp than the original dragoon, but less range and can only attack ground

[DKutrovsky]

If you watch closesly at the toss gameplay, the final battle there is one immortal not touched by siege tanks, and hit only by marines reapers, and it was shot untill it had no shields than a siege tank hit it (for the 1st time 100% sure, and the hardened shields did not activate)

I like the mechanic of the immortal, its not really that overpowering, its just good vs siege tanks, thats it.

[BirdofPrey]

With my idea the abilities wouldn't have to ignore the shield. The unit would still die

[Joneagle_X]

what is the use of fielding a high damage unit against it when a medium damage does just as much.


That's exactly the point of the Immortal. Why attack it with high firepower? You're wasting it. Exactly.

Also, abilities will still probably effect the unit heavily. Just make the nuclear attack be a large number of small attacks, etc. It's not like anything else is going to survive anyway....

Besides, now the Terran have a unit that will survive a nuke and so do the Protoss...

I'm fine with the Immortal as it is.

[elite-guard]

Sry for not reading 4 pages of posts for 7 threads =P. Well, sry for double explaining.

I think abilities should be able to pass, maybe. Yes, why attack it with high firepower? you dont. which is why you have to vary your armies so that you still have low level marines that can take out these guys, while zealots/stalkers get pwned by your "high level" tanks and banshees.

I think Blizzard is focusing on making starcraft damage simple. It was always simple, plus or minus. so doing percentage isn't for starcraft. They changed the starcraft armor types and now give bonuses of attack, which allow a greater freedom. Percentage would probably solve the problem but I think most older starcraft players are used to the simpleness of looking at marine: 5 attack, ok, it's gonna do five damage for every hit, oh it does only 2.5 to armor, just divide by 2 simple. With percentage, it's like, ok, so 5 damage-10%*5 because of that one ability and then minus 5% because of armor and...

Way to difficult.

[ItzaHexGor]

It shouldn't be that players are trying to figure out how much damage each unit does against every other unit... And Blizzard, in a way, have already made it harder to calculate damages done by each unit, for example, the Warp Ray. The Warp Ray slowly intensifies its Prismatic Beam (to a maximum of 3 'intensifications') which makes it hard to calculate the damage it's doing. It should just be assumed knowledge that these units are good against those units but bad against that unit. Also, in Starcraft1 certain units, like the Siege Tank, do a softened amount of damage against either small or large units/buildings. I forget which, anyone know? I'll study up on it and post again tomorrow. Anyway, long story short, Starcraft2 shouldn't be about calculating all the individual attack damage etc. Percentage is a great way to do armor ratings.

Also, when you said.....

marine: 5 attack, ok, it's gonna do five damage for every hit, oh it does only 2.5 to armor, just divide by 2 simple.
THAT IS A PERCENTAGE! DIVIDING BY 2 IS THE SAME AS 50 PERCENT!

EDIT: I found out about the Siege Tanks' attacks, they deal Explosive-Type damage, meaning, they deal 50% damage against small units, 75% against medium and 100% against large units. This is already an example of percentage damages used in StarCraft, and there is also Concussive-Type damage being, 100% against small units, 50% against medium and 25% against large, and Normal-Type damage being 100% against all units.

[Larvitar]

Warprays take a long time to get to 3rd concentration of beam right? In the video somehow they never reach 3rd (mark me if i'm wrong) type when fighting battlecruisers 4 on 1. Just how strong are they?

[BnechbReaker]

we don't have enough info at the moment, why hasn't anyone who was at blizzcon revealed any details? come'on people...

[DontHate]

on the unit statistics it said warp rays did 4 damage... per second? i'm not sure.

[BnechbReaker]

4 per second is quite low, plus we don't know how the how the increase in power over time works

[Dreadnought]

Isn't it, whenever a attack deals more than 10 damage, then it drains the shield = damage -10? So if it has only 10 shield left and u hit it with 30 damage attack, it will reduce 10 of it but the attack will still deal 20.

[DKutrovsky]

No idea about the warp ray damage, the marine however does 6 damage every shot, and shoots once per second, and twice per second when stim packed, it did normal damage in SC1 which did 100% to all targets.

The siege tank in SC1 did explosive damage, which dealt 100% to large targets(dragoon, tank, goliath, ultralisk) 75% to medium targets(hydra,vulture) and 50% to small units(marine, zealots, zergling)

Concussive damage in SC1 was dealt by the firebat,ghost,vulture(come to think of it,i think only terran had concussive damage, most toss units do explosive or melee, normal, so does zerg...weird) which does 100% to small, 50% to medium and 25% to large.

Buildings were also considered large.

[ItzaHexGor]

@ DKutrovsky
I had already said pretty much everything that you put in that post, except for what units are what sizes, which is pretty much common knowledge. The only part of your post that had not been said before is that:
Concussive damage in SC1 was dealt by the firebat,ghost,vulture
And this still pretty much had nothing to do with the topic. It had already been covered that Blizzard does use percentages to work out damages dealt to specific units.

[DKutrovsky]

Ma bad if i just repeated everything, i just felt like there was some confussion about the types of damage some of the SC1 units did.

Anyways, im not sure how the damage is in SC2 yet, if its more like WC3, where you deal extra or reduced damage, or like SC1 where it was 100% or less.

[BnechbReaker]

in starcraft2 units deal bonus damage against certain types.

[Wlck742]

I wonder how well that'll work out. For some reason I don't really like it.

[BnechbReaker]

the picture below show how it works:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e280/drewcbarnard/067.jpg

[TerranGod]

It's a protoss heavy tank unit, much better than the dragoon.


game play wise stalkers are the new dragoon, they have almost the same stats plus the bonus blink ability. immortal, on the other hand is a completely new unit design to take on heavy ground armor like tank, ultra and twilight archon. the immortal have much more hp than the original dragoon, but less range and can only attack ground


you guys are all wrong!
immortals ARE the dragoons actually but in game wise bnech is right
stalkers are more likely dragoons in games, but compared to storyline stalkers are like the complete opposite

stalkers = dark templar = outcast = banned from sociaty
almost dead zealots = dragoon = warp gate died so no more = remaining became immortals

[BnechbReaker]

i'm only talking about game play not story

[ItzaHexGor]

immortals ARE the dragoons actually but in game wise bnech is right

Yeah... that's kind of what he said

game play wise stalkers are the new dragoon,

No-one was actually really talking about the storyline... Just how to use these units in the game and what role they fill.
In proper games (not campaigns/in the story) the Stalkers are the new Dragoons (they fit the same role), and Immortals are a new unit designed for sieges and taking on powerful units (completely new role).

EDIT: Fixed up some typo's

[Associate]

i heard the immortal's hardened shield reduces enemy damage only by 10, so perhaps a siege tank in its siege mode with a damage of 100 will still inflict considerable damage to the immortals. i really think the problem is with the siege tank's rate of fire, they need to make them fire their siege cannons a bit faster

[ItzaHexGor]

The Immortals Hardened Shields reduce the damage to 10, not by 10. This is why they are so effective against units that have a powerful attack, because units that do have a powerful attack almost always attack very slowly. So if a Siege Tank hits them for with an attack that would otherwise do 100 damage, the damage done to the Immortal is reduced to 10. There is no problem with the Siege Tanks rate of fire because they are not the only units that suffer a damage reduction against Immortals. If, like you said, they did make Siege Tanks attack faster it would make them overpowered against other ground units and would also negate the handicap that they have against Immortals. I repeat: Blizzard is NOT just trying to make a game where one unit is powerful against all others, they are making it so that all units have strengths and weaknesses. The Siege Tanks strength is its ability to deal significant damage against all small ground units, and its weakness is that they are very ineffective against other units.

[Larvitar]

Lol, fast siege tank fire. I can imagine it being so imba until 4 siege tanks could take out 200 marines.

[Smokiehunter]

yea siege tanks just need to have some marine back up or some reapers can come in and take them out

[Recon]

Ya sieges are strong enough without being able to fire fast, and smokeie is right, they made immortals to be good against strong attacking units but I'm sure rines and reapers still rip them to shreads so there shield is only good if the sieges are by themselves or only have a little back up.

[Larvitar]

The point of immortals are just for tanking shots that should be hitting something else. Tanks pwn zealots and immortals pwn tanks. If tanks vs zealots and immortals I'll like to see that noob trying to kill immortals just because it's more expensive.

[ItzaHexGor]

It's true that Siege Tanks are good against small units, like the Zealot, but it won't be that simple in StarCraft2. We all already know that Siege Tanks have a minimum range, and the fact that Zealots will now have an upgradeable Charge ability, means that they can close the distance extremely quickly. Tanks will now either need a row of Marines/Reapers or Supply Depots in front of them(however they will be injured by the splash damage) or be across rivers or up cliffs (like seen in the Protoss Gameplay Video).

[BnechbReaker]

yeah the charge is totally gonna make the siege tank's life much harder against zealots in open space

[Larvitar]

I suppose supply depots are more important than your siege tanks?
Com'on, what's a 150 mineral dmg when you pwn a few zealots that are worth 400-600minerals?

[BnechbReaker]

has the cost of supply depot increased? it cost 100 minerals in sc1

[Larvitar]

Assuming you destroy one supply depot and damage a few others....yeah.....150mineral dmg....

[ItzaHexGor]

Don't use the ones that you need for food though... Just use them as barriers. They're just stopping the Siege Tanks from being in melee combat with the Zealots. I'd prefer a whole lot of Supply Depots destroyed/burning as long as the Siege Tanks survive.

[Joneagle_X]

I think the trend we're seeing in SC2 is a downplay of the classic Terran dependancy on the Seige Tank.

While it will still have a major role, with the addition of new mechanics in Tier 1-2, the Terran have more options rather than the tank push. The Banshee is a legitimate replacement for the Seige Tank in battle as well as raids, and the Reaper will offer an early game raider unit that could debilitate the opponent without the use of tanks as well.

So now there will be two types of Terran gameplay. The classic tank push, which will need some alterations to survive the changes in gameplay, and the new Terran harassment style of play where the Banshee (and possibly the Cobra) will compensate for a lack of Tank production.

[BnechbReaker]

other thing to bear in mind are:

the siege tank has become a more powerful units, but at the time also cost significantly more in terms of both resources and supply. and there are no more vultures, which was a key part of tvp strategy.

the battlecruiser is available earlier than in sc1, with the tech-lab being able to be pre-built and requiring only deep space relay instead of science facility with physics lab add-on

[BirdofPrey]

Hey maybe now there will be viable strategies other than shell their base with tanks