A question to all non-Christians

[Fenix]

What does your religion state about the Origin of Man? We all know the Christian stance on it, but I'm afraid my knowledge in other religions is rather lacking on that point?

[ijffdrie]

let's see, im not religious, but i have got a pretty theorie
in the beggining there was nothing, not even time
but that cannot exist
so a paradox was created
and the energy from that paradox created the big bang


hinduism and buddhism believe the same thing as each other i thought
in the beggining there was the fire of life
the fire leaked and from it perfect spills life was born
but that life was contaminated
so thelife had to go through multiple lives to clean itself


judaïsm and islam believe the same as christianity about their origin because they originated from the same faith, judaïsm in the hundred years around Jezus Christ, who wasnt a Christian by the way, but a jew, becuase only after his death people started to believe he was the messias

[ItzaHexGor]

Atheist.
Big Bang created the universe and everything in it. Then only on hospitable planets (the only known one being Earth at the moment) in the right conditions organic compounds were chemically synthesized. Then RNA producing molecules evolved then DNA molecules, then single celled bacteria, then multicellular organisms.
This all took place over a period of four and a half billion years, not the six days that it took for Christians.

[kuvasz]

They beat us to it by a small margin :(

[Fenix]

Atheist.
Big Bang created the universe and everything in it. Then only on hospitable planets (the only known one being Earth at the moment) in the right conditions organic compounds were chemically synthesized. Then RNA producing molecules evolved then DNA molecules, then single celled bacteria, then multicellular organisms.
This all took place over a period of four and a half billion years, not the six days that it took for Christians.


Atheism isn't a religion =D

Actually (This is my opinion, I'm a middle liner)....In the Bible and my religion's holy book, it makes numerous references to thousands of years being a blink of an eye to God. How do we know how long those 'six days' were?

Anyway.
If what Idjffrie said was true, Buddhism and Hinduism have awesome beliefs. I've always been a fan of reincarnation, even though I'm Christian.

I've got odd ones I think.

[ItzaHexGor]

@ kuvasz. Hehe, we'll catch up eventually... Trust me.
@ Praetor Fenix. Well if someone asks me what religion I am, I'd tell them I'm an Atheist. It might not be one strictly by definition, but colloquially it certainly is. Also, if thousands of years happen in the blink of an eye to god, all that means is that six days happens even quicker. After all, six years is shorter than a thousand years, so your quote isn't necessarily relevant.

[kuvasz]

He meant it the other way round, that it was six days for God to create everything, and thus a very long time for us earthlings.

[ItzaHexGor]

A day would be the same length for us as it would for a god, the only difference may be that the god experiences it differently. Saying that for a god a thousand years pass in a blink of an eye doesn't mean that the god has super long days. Those thousand years are made up of ~365, 250 days and the Earth and everything on it was supposedly created in 6 of those days. Also, unless the physical Earth and Sun were made in the very first day, it is impossible to measure it in days, years, etc, seeing as a day is measured in the time it takes for that celestial body to spin around once and a year is the time it takes to orbit around a star. However if the physical Earth and Sun were created on the first day then those days would take just as long as they do for us now.

[don_bocci]

If God is all-powerful then there is nothing that is impossible for him. The whole day stuff and such is just a representation so that we could understand it, it is not a completely literal translation you know.

Anyway I am Catholic just for the record.

And about Atheist being a religion technically speaking for a religion to be globally recognized there needs to be in the range of about 1,000 to 1M depending on the place and such and such. So if you take religion as being a set of beliefs then Atheism is in fact a religion.

Paradoxly isn't it?

[ItzaHexGor]

But the god is not the one doing the impossible. Even if it does exist and is all powerful, it's not doing what I said is impossible. I said it is impossible to measure a day without a celestial body and impossible to measure a year without it orbiting a star. It's like timing a race that has no competitors. A god might be able to do anything, but the god isn't involved in these.

[Meee]

why isn't it possible? We don't measure days in planet movement anymore, we do it in hours. Six days is ~24x6 hours
Besides taking things like this from Bible literally is pointless imo

[ijffdrie]

just wondering, if god is omniscienent, than he could predict the future, and he would have been able to stop adam and eva from plucking the apple, he could stop sodom and gommora from becoming hellholes, and he could stop the world from going mad near the (i dont know the name in english) zondvloed

[ItzaHexGor]

Actually days are still measured in rotations. The time it takes for the Earth to rotate relative to the Sun is approximately 24 hours, so an Earth day is 24 hours. That's why we need a leap year every four years. It's because the time it takes for the Earth to rotate doesn't exactly fit into the time it takes to orbit the Sun and there is always about a quarter of a day left over each year, so every four years there is an extra day because those four quarters are still left over.
The days on Venus are actually longer than its year because it is orbiting the Sun faster than it's rotating.
Also, I have no clue why someone would follow something so closely, but not take it literally.
@ijffdrie. According to that (which to me is entirely true), god would have to be out to get everyone, like a kid with a magnifying glass on an anthill. :P

[ijffdrie]

yeah, but it would be possible for him to do all that a million years ago, and play starcraft for the rest of eternity

[Meee]

just wondering, if god is omniscienent, than he could predict the future, and he would have been able to stop adam and eva from plucking the apple, he could stop sodom and gommora from becoming hellholes, and he could stop the world from going mad near the (i dont know the name in english) zondvloed

Yes, he could have.
As for why he didn't you will have to go and ask him personally

Itza, so following your logic, God's six days may have been much longer than our six days literally.
And what do you mean by following something so closely ?

[ItzaHexGor]

No, according to my logic, the six days would have either not existed, if it didn't create the physical Earth until the end of the six days because if it didn't then a 'day' could not have been measured, or it would have been exactly equal to our six days, for if the physical Earth was the first thing created which I assume it was because otherwise there isn't any other place for the other creations to go.
All in all, the Atheist's creation takes a lot longer than the Christian's creation.

[Meee]

You just mentioned Venus' days. Why do you think God has to use Earth's cycle for measuring days.
And as I said it's all metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally imo
At some point Jesus says you should forgive not seven times but seventy seven times, which means always (It's from Hebrew's numerology I think)

[ItzaHexGor]

Why would the creation of all things on Earth be measured in Venus' or any other planet's days? That seems just about as logical as religion itself.
Also, if Jesus is all forgiving, why bother sticking to the commandments, etc.? You'll be forgiven anyway, no matter what you've done wrong.

[Meee]

Maybe he doesn't measure it with plantes at all? That's why I told you to stay away from trying to understand it literally, it was never ment to be taken that way (i think)

Do I know? I don't think you are forgiven everything in the end. They did say that all our actions will be measured etc. Maybe it's that we as humans are supposed to forgive, but those who did wrong will be judged by God

[ItzaHexGor]

Days can only exist if there is a planet. You can't have a day without one. If the Earth is the only planet they're referring to, then they'll be speaking in Earth days. Therefore, the Christian creation took place over six days, and the Atheist took place over 4.5 billion years. The Atheist's theory of creation is longer than the Christian's theory of creation. I don't know why everyone wanted to argue that point in the first place.
Also, I reckon that the only reason people say not to take the Bible literally is because otherwise, they can't be proved wrong. If there are no facts about it, it can't be proved wrong, but if there are, then it can. So the only way to ensure that your cult/religion will never be proven wrong is to say that the only evidence of it should not be taken literally.
Also, if he told people to be all forgiving, then there wouldn't be any Christian Judges, Jurors, Policemen, Lawyers, etc, etc, because they'd be forced by their religion to forgive whoever is guilty.

[Meee]

yeah and there wouldn't be need for them since religion forbids stealing, killing etc

forgiving doesn't neccessarily mean we shouldn't restrain people who are dangerous. In fact Christian religion allows even death sentence if it is absolutely only means of preventing someone from killing others. Technically, since with current advancement of civilization there's always other way, so it would never be used.

Anyway I give up, I don't have knowledge, skills nor devotion do defend anymore religion I don't even believe in.

[Light]

With every passing day I seem to hate religion more and more

[ItzaHexGor]

They would still be needed because not all people are Christian, so there would still be some thieves, murderers, etc.
If the thief or murderer who is in court says that they have changed their ways (regardless of whether they've told the truth or not), why wouldn't a devote Christian judge forgive him?
I'm with GM_k, but it's not that I hate religion, rather than I find religious people more and more ignorant.

[don_bocci]

Lets take a step back here and examine this. Now Itza according to you Christians believe creation happened in 6 days, that is only partially true. The story of creation in the bible is as I said earlier not meant to be a literal translation, six days is just a representation of creation in a way that those who lived 2 or 3 thousand years ago could understand it. So as far as your idea of 4.5billion years it still holds true because nobody ever said that Christians believe everything was just created in six days, that is just the teaching that was handed down by some prophet or another, I forget his name at the moment.

Here's a way to explain how the six days of creation still hold true. Now I am going to ask you first to please have an open mind when you read this don't immediately conclude that what I am about to say is illogical, have the decency to listen and attempt understanding before you shoot this down.

Now according to Christian belief God is all-powerful all knowing and all Love. Now if you can believe that just for this for this explanation then to have century's pass before God in a blink of his eye is not only possible but logical. For God also according to the faith exists in everything and since God created everything he then created time, so he can pretty much do whatever he wants with it.

Ok and just for you here's some cold hard logic.

If you believe in God and he doesn't exist nothing happens to you, if you believe in God and he does exit all the better for you.

If you don't believe in God and he doesn't exist your still fine, but if you don't believe in God and he does exist you screwed.

So logically it would be better to believe and be wrong then to not believe and be wrong.
At least that's how I would look at it if I wasn't a believer myself.

And btw I am wondering what you find ignorant in people believing in a faith.

[BirdofPrey]

why wouldn't a devote Christian judge forgive him?Do YOU always do what you are told regardless of circumstances?

Thinking that someone's religion enforces perfect conformity to the rules makes you more ignorant than than the people you say you hate.

This whole well why don't Christians forgive everyone since its in the bible is EXACTLY the same as why do people steal when its against the law. You are currently fitting the profile of an Atheist who for some reason or another makes excuses to attack religion and one of the ways they do it is holding religious people to be more perfect than non-religious people and then attacking them when they can't live up to this inflated expectation.
_________________________________________________ Another think that really pisses me off is this idea that religion and science are two totally different things. They are not. They are BOTH ways of understanding the world and anyone who says they are mutually exclusive is an idiot

Its simple religion answers what happened and why did it happen. Science answers how it took place and sometimes when. For example Religion says, "God made people" someone overly religious would say that he wanted people so they just appeared. Well it is best to turn to science and find out how it happened. Science says cells spontaneously created themselves and then a series of mutations eventually created people.

If you combine the two it becomes more complete. God wanted people so he made life and then directed evolution to a point where he was satisfied. One of the biggest holes in the theory of Evolution is how mutations could from new species when most mutations are harmful and religion fills in by adding someone who can direct these mutations and cause beneficial ones to happen. In turn science gives religion an explanation of how it works.

You have to remember the Bible was written several millennia ago. They didn't know about evolution so they had to be told in a way that they would understand by cutting out the science bit so it became "God wanted people so he made people" and leaves out the how.
_________________________________________________
One thing that I want to know is why people are overly critical of religion but never question science. SCIENCE told us the earth was flat an that were were the center of the universe. Yes you should question religion but you should also question science and everything you are told and you should always challenge ideas, opinions and even these quaint things called facts because the moment you stop questioning things is the moment you stop learning and civilization stagnates

[darkone]

Ok Itza leave the Christians alone, the way they are they are their own worst enemies.

With all the different beliefs from the same basic religion it is hard to believe anything any of them say (about their religion).

I am atheist btw.

[Meee]

"the way they are they are their own worst enemies"
that one actually comes from being humans

[Light]

SCIENCE told us the earth was flat an that were were the center of the universe.

Wrong. It was actually the clergy who propagandised this, as it says in the Bible the earth is in the center of the universe, and was on the whole against new development. The scientists who said otherwise were persecuted, just think of Copernicus and Galileo.

All religion is the same. Just think how different are the old Greek and Roman gods, when people worshipped them, or better, some idols, sticks and stones, than todays religions. They were sure their gods were real.

I'm not listening to these stories, and I'm not wasting my time on capitalists who only care about money and power.

I don't completely doubt the existence of higher being, ''God'', that's very much possible, but I know better rather than to trust enemies of humanity.

So, lets say I'm wrong. Am I afraid? No. My religion is common sense and humanity. Even if nothing of me will be left in the afterlife, I know I left enough good behind in the past life. And I know this thinking will probably get me to heaven faster than being fanatical over my faith.

Nothing gives someone more powerful the right to tell others how to live.

[BirdofPrey]

Are you so blind in attacking religion that you forgot about the fact that the Earth was said to be round BEFORE the Catholic church

Ever heard about Ptolemy (http://Ptolemy) He was a SCIENTIST that said the earth was the center of the universe. All the church did was say that his system was the official system of belief.

The Catholic Church's idiocy aside it was science who determined these things. Frankly you are being a hypocrite. You say people are fools for holding on to religion yet when someone points out the fallacies if science you defend it with religious zeal. If you are unable to admit mistakes have been made then you will never fix those mistakes.

Yes I realize the Catholic Church did horrible things for this world because it was controlled by people who wanted total control. but my point is that believing unquestioningly in whatever a scientist tells you is just as stupid as believing unquestioningly in what a priest tells you. Don't take my attempt at making a point into another attack at religion.

If you hate religion that's your problem but don't let it turn you into a close minded person because close minded people turn into ignorant people and ignorant people are a threat to progress

[Light]

If anything, not being a religious opens my mind to other possibilities; yet NOT so that I trust everything to 100%. Science has its mistakes, but religion has far greater ones. I never said that I trust science no matter what.

I'd say it does not only goes about the shape of the earth, but about ANYTHING that the Bible/church claim to be true. Unlike science, they can never embrace change or anything closely different from the text of the Bible.

[Darktemplar_L]

To me, religion is just a big lie. "God bless America" okay... why not god bless japan? or god bless antarctica. Speaking of this, answer: Who created god? Dont tell me he created himself because that can't be possible unless he was already in existance which can't be because he would have to be created first. Another Question: Has god been a good god? If he's all loving, he would just kill all the suicide bombers before they suicieded. What kind of a person lets people kill each other huh? God doesn't do anything about global warming... wow....

[Prodigal]

Most religions have a creationist theorey.

I personally believe that the Xel`naga flew to earth in their spaceship and began breeding genetic ancestors of human beings, knowing fully well what we would fully evolve into. 8)

[Zacron]

let's see, im not religious, but i have got a pretty theorie
in the beggining there was nothing, not even time
but that cannot exist
so a paradox was created
and the energy from that paradox created the big bang


hinduism and buddhism believe the same thing as each other i thought
in the beggining there was the fire of life
the fire leaked and from it perfect spills life was born
but that life was contaminated
so thelife had to go through multiple lives to clean itself




i m not sure,but i thougth Buddha said that there is no beginning or something like thta.

[don_bocci]

@ Darkremplar_L

edit: I am not going to change what I said but I would just like to say I don't mean to offend anybody I just got riled up a bit.

"God bless America" you do realize that this is something the country says and not the religion right? The political parties in America constantly refer to God because America is nearly 80% Christian so in order to get office they make sure to state they are religious otherwise they wouldn't be elected. That has nothing to do with the faith itself though, Christians don't go around saying "God Bless America" because its the only country that should be blessed, in fact I rarely ever hear that and I live here.

Secondly open your mind to the possibilities or at least listen to the logic of it. First there was God who is all powerful, an all powerful being as from being all powerful would have the ability to create everything ex nihilo (from nothing). If you would open your mind to the possibilities then perhaps the least you could do is not attack Christians. You don't have to believe anything I say but you could at the very least not disregard it. That in itself just breads ignorance.

Deo nihil impossibile

And how dare you Judge God, you want to know the reason why God just doesn't strike down suicide bombers? Its because he so Loves us that he is unwilling to kill his people, even if, or I should say, especially if they don't believe in him. "God doesn't do anything about Global Warming" Why should he fix every problem we create, we as humans polluted his land why should he have to lift his finger and fix every one of our problems. Do you want him to come down and take away all our suffering? You want him to fix everything in your life so you can be without worry or care? How are we as humans supposed to learn and take care of ourselves if God does it for us? I am sorry but if you are going to disregard and even hate God maybe you should do some sort of research or maybe ask questions as to why God does what he does. Don't voice an opinion ignorantly.

A quote to dwell on

"It is better to not speak and let them think you are a fool then to speak and remove all doubt."


Deo nihil impossibile, nisi quae non vult

[ninerman13]

While there is nothing wrong with religion, faith, beliefs, etc., I personally can't stand this argument:


If you believe in God and he doesn't exist nothing happens to you, if you believe in God and he does exit all the better for you.

If you don't believe in God and he doesn't exist your still fine, but if you don't believe in God and he does exist you screwed.

So logically it would be better to believe and be wrong then to not believe and be wrong.
At least that's how I would look at it if I wasn't a believer myself.


The reason they call it faith is because nobody knows for sure right? So how do you know which God to believe in? If you believe in the wrong God you are still screwed right? There are so many religions/beliefs out there that it's not black and white. What if I believed that a giant pillow created the world, and if you don't believe in the giant pillow you became a feather forever? One could potentially use the same reasoning as above to say that logically everybody should believe in a giant pillow that created everything. This is why the logic is bad.

I am personally of the opinion that as long as you are a good person and lead a good life, it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in God. If God doesn't exist, nothing happens, and if God does exist he/she should be thrilled that you were a good person. If a God exists that would penalize me for not believing even though I was a great person, that God doesn't deserve anybody's praise. Especially since I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe.

[Zacron]

Do you want him to come down and take away all our suffering? You want him to fix everything in your life so you can be without worry or care? How are we as humans supposed to learn and take care of ourselves if God does it for us?


IMHO,back to first question,why we exists in the first place.
i dunno but maybe he should use his power to automatically make us learn and take care of ourselves well if he exists.

[Dinoxe]

I don't not belive, but I don't really believe in god im kinda in the middle

But.. If god did exsist, and considering that christians believe god created man in his own image, but if thats true and god is "perfect" then people should not fight and kill other people constantly and over petty things like who's religion is right and whose is wrong

[don_bocci]

Sorry ninerman13 I guess I did not explain the purpose of that argument because personally I hate it to, and I really have no use for it other than to use it against people who will not accept anything but cold logic.

And by the way that is actually a very old theological argument dating back to the upbringing of the Roman empire.

Though in retrospect I should say that the final clause should be changed for it to be a complete argument.

If you don't believe in God and you deny the teachings of church then you are worse off.

To explain: It is Catholic belief that there is only one sure way to go to hell, and that is if you learn about the teachings of his church and then disregard it. So if you were never taught the ways of his church even if you don't believe in God you would be fine.
That's just Catholicism though and that is also a short version, if you want the complete teaching you'll have to look it up in the Catechism.

For those who don't know that is a book of the specifics of the teachings in the Catholic church.

And please if you bother to read this do so with an open mind I can not say this enough I rather you ask me so I can explain then to throw hate at me.

@Zacron

According to the faith we exist because God was so full of Love that he wanted some tangible way to share it, so he created us so that he could Love us.

And again God has already done so much so why should he pamper us any more than he already has?

@Dinoxe

We were created in his likeness and image, not in his perfection. That is what we should strive to obtain in our life.
But since God is the only perfect being we will always fall short of his perfection so all we can do is to strive to be like him

[Dinoxe]

Well then wouldn't god want us to be able to obtain perfection?

[don_bocci]

Well I suppose you would obtain perfection in the end when you join him in heaven.

[Dinoxe]

But what happens if you don't go to heaven? you just go to hell and then what? do you strive for perfection there?

[don_bocci]

Actually there is the middle grounds of purgatory, so if you don't make it to heaven but don't deserve to go to Hell then you go to purgatory. If you mange to get yourself in hell you pretty much trapped I'm afraid, but theres only one way to get to hell anyway so as long as you don't blatantly object to God's teachings your fine.

[ItzaHexGor]

First off, I think everyone needs to keep it civil. There is no point in flying off the rails at anyone just because they've voiced an opinion. I swear that this thread is WAY to close to being locked or deleted right about now.
Now, prepare for a long read. I can understand that some of you won't be bothered to read the whole thing, but I congratulate those who can put in the effort. To all of those who don't read it, just be prepared that some of the thing you are talking about may have been covered or already asked in here.

Do YOU always do what you are told regardless of circumstances?

Thinking that someone's religion enforces perfect conformity to the rules makes you more ignorant than than the people you say you hate.

This whole well why don't Christians forgive everyone since its in the bible is EXACTLY the same as why do people steal when its against the law. You are currently fitting the profile of an Atheist who for some reason or another makes excuses to attack religion and one of the ways they do it is holding religious people to be more perfect than non-religious people and then attacking them when they can't live up to this inflated expectation.

People who steal and commit other crimes that are against the law all have a chance at getting away with it. On the other hand, religious people who sin have no chance of getting away with it because their god is supposed to be omniscient. Also, if you would actually read posts, I said that I do not hate religion, I just find the religious people ignorant. I actually like the concept of religion in that it portrays good morals and values. I am not making excuses to attack religion, I am trying to logic it out. The only problem with that is that people here say that you can't logic out religion, which, in all actuality, is probably even more true than they realize. Also, the religious people set their own standards. If they themselves have chosen to follow those sets of beliefs, then they should follow them to the word.

One of the biggest holes in the theory of Evolution is how mutations could from new species when most mutations are harmful and religion fills in by adding someone who can direct these mutations and cause beneficial ones to happen. In turn science gives religion an explanation of how it works.

Creatures do not 'mutate' to for a new specie. New species are slowly formed through genetic variation and natural selection. Time for an example. The pea plant can come in two colors, green and yellow. Now I'm not positive which is actually the dominant trait, but for this let's just say that the dominant trait is green. Let's also say that there is a herbivore that only eats green plants. As more and more of the green plants are eaten, a greater percentage of the remaining plants becomes yellow, and because yellow is the recessive trait all of the yellow pea plants have to be homozygous meaning that no more of its offspring will be green. After some time there will only be yellow plants left. Now, I am not by any means saying that this is a new specie, but after this happens over and over and over and over, the creature or plant will eventually be classified as a new specie. Remember that the different colored plants are not mutations, just like how human skin color isn't a mutation. In short, evolution only occurs due to genetic variation and not mutations. There may be a few exceptions to this, but a specie does not need to mutate to become a new specie.

One thing that I want to know is why people are overly critical of religion but never question science. SCIENCE told us the earth was flat an that were were the center of the universe. Yes you should question religion but you should also question science and everything you are told and you should always challenge ideas, opinions and even these quaint things called facts because the moment you stop questioning things is the moment you stop learning and civilization stagnates

First of all, the Earth was never proven to be flat. It was believed to be flat. There is a big different between something that's proven and something that's believed. Also, how can you say that no-one questions science? How else would new theories and laws be made if no-one ever questions what was thought to be 'known'. In Chemistry recently I learnt that protons and neutrons were not the smallest particle of matter. These are actually made up of sub-atomic particles. The only sub-atomic particle I can remember from that was a quark, but how else would this have been found if scientists didn't question that protons and neutrons were the smallest particle of matter? It wouldn't have. Scientists always have to question science to make sure they've gotten it right. If they can't prove it but it's probable then they call it a theory, however if they are able to prove it, without any doubt what-so-ever, then it becomes a law.

Ever heard about Ptolemy (http://Ptolemy) He was a SCIENTIST that said the earth was the center of the universe.

Somewhat surprisingly, you may actually be correct here. He would have said that the Earth was flat. He never proved that it was flat, he just said that is was.

Frankly you are being a hypocrite. You say people are fools for holding on to religion yet when someone points out the fallacies if science you defend it with religious zeal.

Are you any different? If you think that others are plain stupid for defending science but attacking religion, then you must be just as stupid as they for taking the opposite stand.

I am sorry but if you are going to disregard and even hate God maybe you should do some sort of research or maybe ask questions as to why God does what he does. Don't voice an opinion ignorantly.

Maybe an even better idea would be, instead of doing some research before you hate god, do some research before you believe in god. As you said, don't voice an opinion ignorantly. Seeing as there is no proof he exists, I'd say that you're being just as ignorant.

A quote to dwell on

"It is better to not speak and let them think you are a fool then to speak and remove all doubt."

That applies to you as well, not just to Atheists. I don't know why you would even bring a quote like that into a conversation like this.

Deo nihil impossibile, nisi quae non vult

That has got to be one of the most airy-fairy lines I've ever heard.

[Meee]

Something about Dark Templar's post
"To me, religion is just a big lie. "God bless America" okay... why not god bless japan? or god bless antarctica."
Ever noticed how it's only said in America? Maybe they just don't care about Japan? Or they want God to protect them?
Assuming you were beliving in some god and were attacked by someone, would you pray 'god save us all', or rather 'save me' ?

"Speaking of this, answer: Who created god? Dont tell me he created himself because that can't be possible unless he was already in existance which can't be because he would have to be created first."
Ok, so who created us then? Or better yet, who created Universe? Don't tell me it created itself because that can't be possible unless it was already in existance which can't be because it would have to be created first. So how about He was created in your Big Bang, or whatever you believe in? Or maybe He caused Big Bang? There had to be something first for everything else to come to existance, for Christians it was God.

"Another Question: Has god been a good god? "
You do realize God haven't interfered with mankind for about 2000 years already? And he will not until the judgment day.

"If he's all loving, he would just kill all the suicide bombers before they suicieded."
I hope you reread this sentence and realize it doesn't make sense. If his all loving why would he kill them?

"God doesn't do anything about global warming... wow...."
People have free will. They are fully responsible for global warming and it should be up to them to fix it. Besides read above, for whatever reason, God doesn't interfere so he wouldn't do anything anyway.

[don_bocci]

Maybe an even better idea would be, instead of doing some research before you hate god, do some research before you believe in god. As you said, don't voice an opinion ignorantly. Seeing as there is no proof he exists, I'd say that you're being just as ignorant.
Oh the irony, that is either a stab in the dark or a failing assumption. You don't think I have done my research? Do you think I am making all this stuff up? Goodness what a funny statement to make. The last sentence is the part that gets me the most, the irony the irony, ok so you say there is no proof that God exists? Well then right back at you there is no proof that he doesn't. In fact why don't you prove that he doesn't... you can't can you? You want to know why? Its because in order to prove something doesn't exist you would have to prove that it does exist. Don't crap out now after reading this far, just try to rap your mind around this and think. To disprove a tangible theory you have to have evidence against it and since you can't find anything to say against it you can't disprove it. So in order to prove a nonexistent being you would have to have some type of tangible anything of its existence. If you don't get it fine but you still can't prove he doesn't exist so it doesn't matter.


That applies to you as well, not just to Atheists. I don't know why you would even bring a quote like that into a conversation like this.

I never said it didn't apply to me, and it was mostly in response to people who don't do their research first anyway.


That has got to be one of the most airy-fairy lines I've ever heard.

That is an excellent retort I bet your in some sort of debate class or whatnot. But seriously this is a quote again dating back to the time of the early Roman Catholic Church. I'm just bringing it into light because I like it.

[ItzaHexGor]

Goodness what a funny statement to make. The last sentence is the part that gets me the most, the irony the irony, ok so you say there is no proof that God exists? Well then right back at you there is no proof that he doesn't.

So you've supposedly done all of this research about the existence of god, have you? And what did you find? Nothing. That is the proof I go by to show that god does not exist. If god hasn't proven his existence, then why believe that god is real? Try it with something else, say, vampires. There is no proof that vampires exist, so do you believe in them as well? Of course you don't, because, well why would you? There isn't anything to base it on.

That is an excellent retort I bet your in some sort of debate class or whatnot.

Do you even know what airy fairy means? It means insubstantial. It has nothing behind it. It is not a strong, yet alone a real, argument at all.

[LordKerwyn]

Guys be careful with this topic I would rather not lock or delete it.

_________________________________________________

Here is my question what difference does it make? Whether or not religion exists we won't know until we can't prove it to anyone so what difference does it make? Also why if someone was all poweful with an infinite amount of compassion would that being care whether or not an average believed in it as long as the human does the moral thing according to the being? Also what is the value of belief? Is someone who has raped, pillaged and murdered, but believes in an all powerful being better than someone who lives a life like that of someone who is perfectly devout but doesn't believe?

Also don_bocci since you seem to like Pascal's wager and believe the logic in it, what about the atheists wager? They both adhere to the same logic and rules and yet.... think about it.....

I personally don't believe in any deity, but I do believe, whether or not someones believes in an all powerful being is irrelevant its what that person does that makes all of the difference.

So what is the point of this debate nothing can be proven or disproven because people can always slightly modify their assumptions, there is no science here, there is no facts that can be proven without a doupt, so why argue? This thread is all opinions.

Anyways thats my 2 cents.    

[Wlck742]

What difference does it make?

It makes a lot of difference. Millions of peoples' lives are being influenced by religion everyday. Just take a look at the Middle East. Hardly a week goes by without some violence in Israel or Palestine or the like, and if you take a lot of the conflicts they all have some root in religion. All through history wars and massacres happened because of religion. For example millions of Jews were killed all throughout history because they were Jewish. It's just like race; it's similar to how the black slaves in America were forced to work on plantations because of their skin color. In this respect religion's caused a lot more harm than good, although that is just opinion.

And yes, I agree with your points. A person who murdered even in the the name of God is still a criminal, and they have no more worth than common killers, even if they were indeed devout. It's kind of ridiculous to say that even if someone's killed dozens of people and raped just as many they're pardoned just because they believe in something which no one really knows to be true. It really is as Kerwyn said the actions the persons make that makes the difference.

Also on a side note, I seriously hate it when people think atheists are bad and amoral. I'm an atheist and it always makes me angry when some people go "Atheists are useless, they have no morals and all they care for is themselves, they're not worth as much as religious people, they have no meaning in their lives..." Why would anyone even think that? Since when has being religious been the benchmark for how good of a person you are. I know a lot of other atheists that have helped others selflessly and led meaningful lives - more meaningful than some intensely religious people. Anyways, that's my opinion.

[don_bocci]

So you've supposedly done all of this research about the existence of god, have you? And what did you find? Nothing. That is the proof I go by to show that god does not exist. If god hasn't proven his existence, then why believe that god is real? Try it with something else, say, vampires. There is no proof that vampires exist, so do you believe in them as well? Of course you don't, because, well why would you? There isn't anything to base it on.

I should tell you that I have in fact a fairly large amount of proof of God's existence, I just don't mention it because you wouldn't care and wouldn't count it as a viable resource. But since you decide to attack my belief then I will tell you that I get my proof from the bible, which aside from being a Holy Book, it is also a great historical reference.

Let me say this outright. I have no problem with Atheists, in fact I have a lot of friends who are Atheists and I respect the right to believe whatever it is you do.

My other proofs come from the many canonized Miracles and such Holy events of healing that have been happening since the creation of the Catholic church. I know you wouldn't count that as reasonable proof either, but thats ok because its proof enough for me you can believe what you like but my belief stays in God.

[ItzaHexGor]

I never attacked your religion. It was you who accused me of a pointless/contradictory argument, which I hadn't, so I defended it.
I do believe that certain parts of the Bible are true. I believe that Jesus could have existed, but he wasn't a god or demigod, and he never came back to life. I've heard that a lot of the plagues could have actually happened as well. The rivers running red was possible from siltation or something, which also explains the death of the fish and the plague of frogs. The lice or mites could have also triggered the boils. I don't know the other plagues, except for the death of the first born. Anyone know the rest?
I also saw an interesting thing about prophets turning their staves into snakes once. I remember it as once you've charmed the snake, then it'll become placid and can be wrapped around a stick with the head folded over the top of the stick, much like a headpiece. For one reason or another the snake won't move or can be persuaded not to move while it's like this, then once it's thrown down onto the ground, it'll become more active and wander off. I forget where I saw it, but it was quite interesting.
Anyway, I went off on a tangent. Certain parts of the Bible may be true, but that doesn't prove Christianity. There are religion texts for other religions as well. Christians have the Bible just like Islamic people have the Qur'an and Scientology has Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. If you're going to take the Bible's word, what stops you taking the Qur'an's word, etc.?

[Light]

Who created God?

You need to think that God was here before time existed, meaning he just as well might be there for eternity, but its very difficult for a human mind to understand, as our actions are constantly influenced by time.
_________________________________________________

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

- Marx

[Inside Sin]

I'm pretty sure if you're an Athiest, your part of the Athiesm religion, this religion consists of no GOD, no beliefs and no supernatural beings... other then scientific animals...

[don_bocci]

Just to make some clarifications, according to Christianity Jesus wasn't a god, as that would defy the rule of God being the one all powerful entity, but Jesus is God. Actually he is technically a third of God. As we believe in the trinity which is three beings in one. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

And thats the missing link isn't it? Why don't I take the word of other such religions and whatnot? The answer is simple I don't believe in them. My outlook on pretty much everything is that I will take the opinion of that which is the most convincing or that which I find the most believable. And for religion it just happens to be Catholicism.

[EonMaster]

In six days God made the universe.
On the seventh day he rested.
On the eighth day, He made Blizzard :)


On a more serious note, though I am Christian, I believe that people get into heaven not by their religion, but by how they live their live on earth. God gave us the right to choose how to live their life, so as long as they live their life being kindly to others, they are worthy of getting into heaven.

[ItzaHexGor]

Why don't I take the word of other such religions and whatnot? The answer is simple I don't believe in them. My outlook on pretty much everything is that I will take the opinion of that which is the most convincing or that which I find the most believable. And for religion it just happens to be Catholicism.

So if you've done this study that you said you've done, what is it in particular about the Qu'ram that makes you not believe it's true? What makes the Bible more believable than the Qu'ram?
Just out of curiosity, were your parents Catholic as well? Also, did they give you a religious upbringing (make you go to scripture and church, get you baptized, etc.)?

[ijffdrie]

p.s. i think i know how long a godly day is, if he exists,
it is exactly one turn-around of the universe, yes the universe goes in circles, yust like the galaxy

[don_bocci]

So if you've done this study that you said you've done, what is it in particular about the Qu'ram that makes you not believe it's true? What makes the Bible more believable than the Qu'ram?
Just out of curiosity, were your parents Catholic as well? Also, did they give you a religious upbringing (make you go to scripture and church, get you baptized, etc.)?


As far as the Qu'ran is concerned I just finds its explanations to be rather lacking, the history described in it is rather lacking compared to the bible. I'll tell you now that I have not word for word read it myself but I have read enough of it to know that it can't capture me in a believable sense.

I admit I was a cradle Catholic, I was baptized as a baby and I went to a Catholic school from second grade all the way to 8th grade. But I will tell you that after 8th grade I became a bit rebellious against Catholicism. luckily my parents never forced me to go to church after I started my freshman year of high school so I just stopped going to church and stopped believing in general. Freshman and Sophomore year were pretty rough I was Pretty much Atheist through most of Fesh year during the end of it to nearly the end of Soph year. Then I began to whole soul searching thing and yada yada. During that time is when I looked over the major religions and all the various little branches and such until I finally ended up with Catholicism. Thats pretty much the short version but yes I was a cradle Catholic to start but then I got lost and found myself again.

Satisfactory to your curiosity?

[ItzaHexGor]

Yes, but it leads to my next question. Seeing as you were baptized, went to a Catholic school, etc, don't you think that the reason why Catholicism seemed to make the most sense was because you knew the most about it? If a Muslim was raised in a similar situation, then, as you did, felt they needed to do some soul searching to find the 'correct' religion, chances are that they would return to Islam, just as you returned to Christianity.
On another note, the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans (although the Romans stole their ideas from the Greeks) all believed in a polytheistic religion. Back then they were positive that their religion was the 'correct' one. Now, however, no-one believes it. Everyone 'knows' that they were all wrong. It was never proven wrong, it just ended when Christianity spread, just as even older beliefs ended when polytheism spread. Who's to say than in another 1, 000 years or so, people won't look back and say 'jeez, I can't believe that they believed in that!'. This also happens with religions that still exist now-a-days, notably Scientology. A lot of people believe that this is a joke of a religion because it was written by a failed science fiction writer (I don't know his name. Anyone?). However there are still thousands of people who believe in it as strongly as you believe in Christianity. There are always people who believe that your religion is just as false as you think polytheism, Scientology and other religions are. Now, before you say 'well that applies to you as well!', think about it. The only way that Atheism (and Agnosticism) can either be proved wrong or just fizzle out, is if one specific religion is proved to be correct.

[ijffdrie]

let's just make a small history of religion

egyptians-intolerant polytheïsm
the religion of aton-first monotheism
than at the end of the egyptian era till the start of the official christian roman state there was a whole period where people believed there was no correct religion, but instead believed in all of the gods of every people

later-monotheism

[don_bocci]

Yes, but it leads to my next question. Seeing as you were baptized, went to a Catholic school, etc, don't you think that the reason why Catholicism seemed to make the most sense was because you knew the most about it? If a Muslim was raised in a similar situation, then, as you did, felt they needed to do some soul searching to find the 'correct' religion, chances are that they would return to Islam, just as you returned to Christianity.
On another note, the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans (although the Romans stole their ideas from the Greeks) all believed in a polytheistic religion. Back then they were positive that their religion was the 'correct' one. Now, however, no-one believes it. Everyone 'knows' that they were all wrong. It was never proven wrong, it just ended when Christianity spread, just as even older beliefs ended when polytheism spread. Who's to say than in another 1, 000 years or so, people won't look back and say 'jeez, I can't believe that they believed in that!'. This also happens with religions that still exist now-a-days, notably Scientology. A lot of people believe that this is a joke of a religion because it was written by a failed science fiction writer (I don't know his name. Anyone?). However there are still thousands of people who believe in it as strongly as you believe in Christianity. There are always people who believe that your religion is just as false as you think polytheism, Scientology and other religions are. Now, before you say 'well that applies to you as well!', think about it. The only way that Atheism (and Agnosticism) can either be proved wrong or just fizzle out, is if one specific religion is proved to be correct.


I can understand what your saying but there is a flaw with your first question. If I had turned to the religion I new most about at the time I would be either a Jew or a Muslim right now. You see I never did pay much attention to the Catholic faith until my Junior year so I knew less about it then I did about most of the other faiths I studied. Ironically one of my favorite set of religions and beliefs to study was the Greeks and their polytheistic religion. I still poke around at their mythologies even now. And your right it is a faith that used to be believed in but now has died out but you have to admit that their faiths have a lot more holes in it them than most of the current day religions.

Really though I can understand what your saying but I don't see any logical reason as to how or why Christianity would die out in the next Million years even. And its true Atheists will almost always exist as long as they can't be proven wrong, but then again so will Christianity and every other religion in existence.

Which basically means this conversion has really gotten us nowhere. Which is fine cause it was still fun.

[Darktemplar_L]

I am sorry but if you are going to disregard and even hate God maybe you should do some sort of research or maybe ask questions as to why God does what he does. Don't voice an opinion ignorantly.



Research? I have done it many, many times, and god being created, there has to be a beginning as Meee said and that means that God had a beginning, which means God was created by something. And by the way, if your not a Christian, are you going to go to hell? Because that is just stupid because most other religions say that you will go to hell if your another religion. And don_bocci, why won't you say the evidence that god exists? Is it because there isn't any? now, if you look outside of the Bible, nothing, nothing at all proves to God's existence, yet many things prove god is non-existent.

[ijffdrie]

actually the existance of some nature laws can be seen as proof, like grafity, or g-forces, which allow life to live

[don_bocci]

Research? I have done it many, many times, and god being created, there has to be a beginning as Meee said and that means that God had a beginning, which means God was created by something. And by the way, if your not a Christian, are you going to go to hell? Because that is just stupid because most other religions say that you will go to hell if your another religion. And don_bocci, why won't you say the evidence that god exists? Is it because there isn't any? now, if you look outside of the Bible, nothing, nothing at all proves to God's existence, yet many things prove god is non-existent.

What proof is there that there has to be a beginning? What makes you think God isn't the beginning?

And as I already explain if you aren't Christian it doesn't mean your going to hell. I already explained the conditions for that but I suppose I just gave a very general outline if you really want to know the full teaching look it up in the Catechism.

I already talked about the evidence of God's existence and to exclude the bible would be like excluding gravity as a reason an apple falls to the ground. The bible is the history of Christianity from the times of the prophets to the time
of Christ. And besides the bible there are the many modern miracles that go on today.

Let me ask you, what proof do you have God's non-existence? Because I am really sure that hundreds of thousands of people would like to know the "many" things that prove that God is non-existent.

[Meee]

You misunderstood, I said that God was the beginning and he created everything else according to Christian religion

[ItzaHexGor]

I can understand what your saying but there is a flaw with your first question. If I had turned to the religion I new most about at the time I would be either a Jew or a Muslim right now. You see I never did pay much attention to the Catholic faith until my Junior year so I knew less about it then I did about most of the other faiths I studied.

I find it hard to believe that you studied more about other religions than you knew about the religion you were raised under. Even is it is purely subconsciously, there are several possibilities on why you would have chosen Catholicism again, whether it be because you're most familiar with it's practices (church, saying grace, etc.), or whether it's the one you feel the more secure with because you'd get the most support from your family, etc. I'm not saying that that's the only reason why you converted back to your family's religion, but I'm saying that it would have influenced your decision.

Really though I can understand what your saying but I don't see any logical reason as to how or why Christianity would die out in the next Million years even. And its true Atheists will almost always exist as long as they can't be proven wrong, but then again so will Christianity and every other religion in existence.

How can you say that? Do you think that the Ancient Egyptians, Romans or Greeks thought that their religion could die out in the next million year? Of course they didn't because they believed it was 100% true, just as modern day Christians do now. Religions may not be proven wrong, but they do die out.

[Light]

Hahahaha, how vain it is to hope religion will survive. It is already dying out. When people start to realise that religion is not needed, we can look forward to a bright future.

[Meee]

It's not that it's not needed. It's more that there is no time for religion anymore. The hour you spend in church you can be earning money instead and that's an obvious choice nowadays...

[Light]

I wasnt talking about that.

In the Bible one can find words of great wisdom, as in Corinthians, where we read: "When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. When I became a man I put aside childish things." It is the same with the development of our species. When the human race finally fulfils its destiny and is able to stand on its own two feet and live life to the full, it will no longer require the prop of religion, a supernatural being to whom to pray or the false consolation of life in another world than this. When that moment arrives, humanity will cast off religion with the same ease that grown people put aside the fairy stories which they so loved in childhood, bit which have outlived their usefulness.

[ItzaHexGor]

Do you mind if I ask where you get that quote from, GM_k? It looks like an interesting read.
Also, one way find the flaws in the old religion is to look at some of their old stories. For example, in Egyptian mythology, the Sun god, Ra, was chased across the sky by a daemon that tried to devour Ra and his light. The daemon would then chase Ra out of the sky and through a twelve chambered river (resembling the twelve hours of night) only to reemerge the next morning. This was the Egyptian way of explaining how the days and nights occur. Their explanation for an eclipse was that the daemon caught Ra, smothering his light, but Ra, with all the Egyptians praying for him, was about to escape again, (Three cheers for Year 7 History!). Nowadays we all know why day, night and eclipses occur, and it certainly isn't to do with a daemon and Ra. Nowadays, people could use this as evidence to say that the Egyptian religion was wrong, because its stories aren't true.
However, this applies to almost all other religions as well. A lot of religions have an 'explanation' for the rainbow, the ones that I'm most familiar with being Christianity and the Dreamtime. It is understandable that back when people did not know the reason for rainbows, that they would invent a reason in order to satisfy their curiosity. In Christianity, after Noah built his Ark, god flooded the Earth to kill all the unbelievers. After the floods stopped, god made a rainbow as a promise that he wouldn't flood the world again. But, believe it or not, god didn't suddenly decide to invent refraction there and then. Rainbows are made from refracting light off the water droplets in the air which are most common after rain but also common in misty areas, etc, etc.
In the Dreamtime, the Rainbow Serpent appears in the wet season to bring rain to the earth and after it has brought the rains, it retreats to the waterholes. The rainbow, seen after a storm, was the Rainbow Serpent returning to the waterholes. However, we also now know that a rainbow is not a gigantic snake stretched across the sky.
Thinking that a rainbow is a snake is just as silly as believing that god decided to invent refraction after he flooded the Earth. Now, I already know that you're going to respond with the same 'you're not supposed to take it literally' response, but you get my point.

EDIT: Added paragraphs, making it easier to read.

[don_bocci]

I find it hard to believe that you studied more about other religions than you knew about the religion you were raised under. Even is it is purely subconsciously, there are several possibilities on why you would have chosen Catholicism again, whether it be because you're most familiar with it's practices (church, saying grace, etc.), or whether it's the one you feel the more secure with because you'd get the most support from your family, etc. I'm not saying that that's the only reason why you converted back to your family's religion, but I'm saying that it would have influenced your decision.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that spent a lot of time actually learning about other religions? My family may have been Catholic but they weren't hardcore in anyway. In fact they would also have cared less if I became Jewish or part of any other religion, as i already said they weren't that strict. And in all honesty the only practice I would be familiar with would have been mass, we never said grace or did much else religiously. But it doesn't matter really because I'm Catholic and thats just the way it turned out.



How can you say that? Do you think that the Ancient Egyptians, Romans or Greeks thought that their religion could die out in the next million year? Of course they didn't because they believed it was 100% true, just as modern day Christians do now. Religions may not be proven wrong, but they do die out.


I suppose your are partially correct, but as far as Christianity goes compared to the ancient beliefs it has lasted a great deal longer.


I have something to ask about the rainbow thing. Now if God is all-powerful then creating rainbows is a possibility. What if the reason rainbows come to be (through the refraction of light through water and whatnot) is because God made them happen that way. He made them happen that way so we could find a scientific way to understand them. God being all-powerful and all-seeing he could do that.

[ItzaHexGor]

Why do you find it so hard to believe that spent a lot of time actually learning about other religions?

Being raised as a certain religion is different to studying others. Even if your family isn't hardcore about it and wouldn't care what religion you were, being raised that way is different to studying another.

I suppose your are partially correct, but as far as Christianity goes compared to the ancient beliefs it has lasted a great deal longer.

Partially? Why am I only partially correct?
Also, just because Christianity has lasted longer that polytheism it doesn't mean that it won't die out. As I said before, the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans 'knew' that their religion wouldn't die out. Guess what? It died out. Now everyone thinks that they 'know' that their religion will not die out because, after all, it's the 'correct' religion, otherwise, why would they believe in it?
If a god is somehow proved to exist, then I'm more than happy to believe in it. You'd be an idiot not to. However, until then, there is no proof that any god exists, so why would you pick one to believe in?

I have something to ask about the rainbow thing. Now if God is all-powerful then creating rainbows is a possibility. What if the reason rainbows come to be (through the refraction of light through water and whatnot) is because God made them happen that way. He made them happen that way so we could find a scientific way to understand them. God being all-powerful and all-seeing he could do that.

Or, conversely, refraction could be a law of physics that has always existed since the beginning of light. Why would god create scientific ways for us to understand things if it does stuff like bring people back from the dead? Giving everything scientific explanations is extremely subtle, raising the dead isn't. Also, I don't see how you can believe that there is something in existence that is all powerful. It completely destroys any logic you have behind your beliefs. Instead of questioning whether it could be so, you say either 'it's not meant to be taken literally' or 'god is all-powerful'. To me they're just excuses to stop people questioning them.

[don_bocci]

Being raised as a certain religion is different to studying others. Even if your family isn't hardcore about it and wouldn't care what religion you were, being raised that way is different to studying another.
Yes its different but it doesn't necessarily mean that I would fall back on Catholicism. I'm just saying that I could have gone a bunch of different ways but I chose to be Catholic.



Partially? Why am I only partially correct?
Also, just because Christianity has lasted longer that polytheism it doesn't mean that it won't die out. As I said before, the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans 'knew' that their religion wouldn't die out. Guess what? It died out. Now everyone thinks that they 'know' that their religion will not die out because, after all, it's the 'correct' religion, otherwise, why would they believe in it?

Your partially correct because yes those religions died out but that is only a few specific cases. The fact that Christianity has lasted so long is important regardless of how you see it. And just because its a religion it doesn't mean it will die out. Where is the law and the logic that says all religions must eventually die out?



Or, conversely, refraction could be a law of physics that has always existed since the beginning of light. Why would god create scientific ways for us to understand things if it does stuff like bring people back from the dead? Giving everything scientific explanations is extremely subtle, raising the dead isn't.

To say that something can't be true because its to subtle compared to God's other methods is a little bit weak. I don't see any logical reason why God couldn't have created everything in a way that we could understand it. He having existence in all time would have known the need for us to have something tangible for us to understand everything with. If God created everything I am pretty sure he could do it in any way he wanted to so for us to be able to understand it would be because God made it understandable.



Also, I don't see how you can believe that there is something in existence that is all powerful. It completely destroys any logic you have behind your beliefs. Instead of questioning whether it could be so, you say either 'it's not meant to be taken literally' or 'god is all-powerful'. To me they're just excuses to stop people questioning them.
What logic does an all-powerful being destroy? What beliefs would such an entity destroy? Can everything be explained scientifically? No, and much less could when the faith came to be in the first place so many stories were used to explain and settle the peoples worries, so to take those literally would be bad. And God being all-powerful is essential to the faith because even now science can't completely explain how everything came into existence, all we have from science are theories. Creation is not something that could happen in as some random twist of fate, it is a design how else would the world be as it is interconnected so full of life.

[ItzaHexGor]

Where is the law and the logic that says all religions must eventually die out?

I never said that there is a law. The logic is in GM_k's post: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=47&topic=5964.msg151620#msg151620

To say that something can't be true because its to subtle compared to God's other methods is a little bit weak. I don't see any logical reason why God couldn't have created everything in a way that we could understand it. He having existence in all time would have known the need for us to have something tangible for us to understand everything with. If God created everything I am pretty sure he could do it in any way he wanted to so for us to be able to understand it would be because God made it understandable.

My point was that if goes does exist, why not make his existence known? Instead he's making these tiny little scientific things for us to find. He's already supposedly sent his son down to Earth, gotten him killed after he caused a whole lot of ruckus, and brought him back to life. After god's done something like that, why does he need to give us scientific things to discover?

What logic does an all-powerful being destroy?

It destroys the logic in the discussion. You're just saying 'it shouldn't be taken literally' or 'he's all powerful, so nyah'. The only reason you should have to use those excuses is if you cannot properly defend yourself.

Can everything be explained scientifically? No, and much less could when the faith came to be in the first place so many stories were used to explain and settle the peoples worries, so to take those literally would be bad.

'...and much less could [be scientifically proved] when the faith came to be...'. I was waiting for someone to say that. Religion is just a way to satisfy human curiosity for things we cannot understand. Humans do not like the unknown, and are scared of it. This is why most religions have a way to explain the rainbow. No-one knew what it was and why it was there, so because they weren't able to explain it, they invented a reason. Same with the Sun. Before everyone knew what it was and how it worked, they were inventing reasons for the days, nights, eclipses, etc, etc. Now, we can explain them, and the excuse that you come up with to defend the story of Noah's Ark is, once again, 'it's not supposed to be taken literally.

And God being all-powerful is essential to the faith because even now science can't completely explain how everything came into existence, all we have from science are theories. Creation is not something that could happen in as some random twist of fate, it is a design how else would the world be as it is interconnected so full of life.

I find it comical that you say 'all science has is theories'. You have a go at science for not being 100% sure, yet the only 'proof' you have of what happens in the Bible comes from in the Bible! It's obvious that they aren't going to write 'by the way, if you haven't figured it out now, this story is fake'.
The only reason that science has theories is that they aren't 100% positive that it's correct. You see, scientists admit when they might be wrong. However once they do prove something, then it becomes a law. However even theories have calculations, etc, behind them. You may just think of the Big Bang theory as a 'well, maybe it happened like this' kinda thing, but it is a heck of a lot more complicated than that. I admit that science can't explain everything that's going on at the moment, but it's knowledge base and resources are always increasing.

[don_bocci]

I never said that there is a law. The logic is in GM_k's post:
I don't see logic. I see an idea or a statement, not something that is logically reasoned out.


My point was that if God does exist, why not make his existence known? Instead he's making these tiny little scientific things for us to find. He's already supposedly sent his son down to Earth, gotten him killed after he caused a whole lot of ruckus, and brought him back to life. After god's done something like that, why does he need to give us scientific things to discover?
So religion isn't a way to make His existence known? Or perhaps miracles of healing and other such events don't count as making his presence known? Why should God make a fanfare of his presence? If you don't believe you don't have to, but He makes his presence know every day all the time is just a lot of people don't pay attention is all. He gives us the scientific part of life so that we can quench our curiosity. And he did so because: Humans do not like the unknown, and are scared of it



It destroys the logic in the discussion. You're just saying 'it shouldn't be taken literally' or 'he's all powerful, so nyah'. The only reason you should have to use those excuses is if you cannot properly defend yourself.

Here you are just twisting my words, in my post I was pointing out that there are stories in the bible that aren't true literal happenings but are just teachings. Parables are stories that are hypothetical in nature but are meant to teach a point and those are the non-literal situations I am referring to. And He being all powerful is the backbone of the religion, how else could He not be? If he wasn't then the faith wouldn't exist, why should I have to explain things I don't know about? I believe in the explanations that God gives us. If that means to believe in his all-powerful nature then so be it.


'...and much less could [be scientifically proved] when the faith came to be...'. I was waiting for someone to say that. Religion is just a way to satisfy human curiosity for things we cannot understand. Humans do not like the unknown, and are scared of it. This is why most religions have a way to explain the rainbow. No-one knew what it was and why it was there, so because they weren't able to explain it, they invented a reason. Same with the Sun. Before everyone knew what it was and how it worked, they were inventing reasons for the days, nights, eclipses, etc, etc. Now, we can explain them, and the excuse that you come up with to defend the story of Noah's Ark is, once again, 'it's not supposed to be taken literally.

Ironically enough Noah's Ark isn't one of those stories that is supposed to be taken literally. You'll want proof I know but the best I can tell you is that Noah's Ark is no made up story, same as Moss's parting of the Red Sea and calling down of the pillar of flames. Those are true as far as Christians are concerned, if you can't believe that whatever I'm not here to make you a believer anyway. Just here to defend my faith. But I believe I had heard proof somewhere of hundreds of chariots and such things of the Egyptian army being embedded in the 'Red Sea' some distance down from the crossing. But I can't recall from where so I suppose as far as your concerned this doesn't prove anything.


I find it comical that you say 'all science has is theories'. You have a go at science for not being 100% sure, yet the only 'proof' you have of what happens in the Bible comes from in the Bible! It's obvious that they aren't going to write 'by the way, if you haven't figured it out now, this story is fake'.
The only reason that science has theories is that they aren't 100% positive that it's correct. You see, scientists admit when they might be wrong. However once they do prove something, then it becomes a law. However even theories have calculations, etc, behind them. You may just think of the Big Bang theory as a 'well, maybe it happened like this' kinda thing, but it is a heck of a lot more complicated than that. I admit that science can't explain everything that's going on at the moment, but it's knowledge base and resources are always increasing.


As I already said the bible isn't my only proof I already named the others. I was talking about creation when I said all science has are theories. I have no problem with science and it's theories and proofs. And believe me I know the Big Bang theory is more complicated than 'everything went extremely dense and then it all exploded'. I respect your competence, so respect mine please.

[ItzaHexGor]

So religion isn't a way to make His existence known? Or perhaps miracles of healing and other such events don't count as making his presence known? Why should God make a fanfare of his presence? If you don't believe you don't have to, but He makes his presence know every day all the time is just a lot of people don't pay attention is all.

Religion is a way to spread make god known, but there are so many religions. Miracle healings also aren't much to go by. If they haven't been set up in the first place, then there are usually other explanations. It is commonly known that optimism increases life expectancy, and pessimism decreases it. If an optimist has a terminal disease and they truly believe that they're going to fight it off, they have a much greater chance of doing so than a pessimist who gives up because they're certain that they're going to die. A similar thing can happen with 'miracle healings'. The patient who has the miracle heal performed on them will blindly believe that they have actually been healed, which increases their chance of beating the illness.

He gives us the scientific part of life so that we can quench our curiosity. And he did so because:

Humans do not like the unknown, and are scared of it


If god proved his existence then that would satisfy human curiosity. We would no longer be curious as to why things are the way they are.

Here you are just twisting my words, in my post I was pointing out that there are stories in the bible that aren't true literal happenings but are just teachings.

The stories that you're saying aren't supposed to be taken literally are the ones that science has proved wrong. We know that a god didn't just instantly create the Earth or instantly invent refraction, so you say that those are the metaphorical ones. If scientists were to one day prove that the creation of life was due to evolution or that everything started from a singularity you'd say that the story of creation was also supposed to be taken metaphorically. Which leads me to wonder whether anything in the Bible is supposed to be true.

Just here to defend my faith. But I believe I had heard proof somewhere of hundreds of chariots and such things of the Egyptian army being embedded in the 'Red Sea' some distance down from the crossing. But I can't recall from where so I suppose as far as your concerned this doesn't prove anything.

I'm not trying to turn you into an Atheist or anything. I might be questioning your religion, but I'm not trying to convert you. I couldn't care less if you believed in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (I didn't just make that up by the way, it actually exists).
It's not that you cannot cite where you heard about the chariots that makes me not believe it's true. It's that it doesn't prove that it happened because Moses parted the Red Sea. There are all sorts of ways that it could have happened. Perhaps they were dumped there, perhaps it flooded and washed the chariots in, perhaps there was a battle near the shore, and yes, perhaps Egyptians were chasing Jews across the sea bed, surrounded by walls of vertical water, which proceeded to collapse on them once the Jews reached the other side. Who knows?

I respect your competence, so respect mine please.

I respect your, and everyone's, competence as well. I don't mean any disrespect to you or anyone else. I'm just stating my views on the current topic, just as you're stating yours.

[gtx75]

hmm... seems like theres a heated arguement here, since when did a christian stumble here to preach.

more over, i believe in evolutionism because its more logical and creation of the world in 6 days is a stretch.

1) *at the musuem* omg, do i see a t-rex? or is that a highly evolved ultralisk.

2) if the world is so perfect, why does "god" betray you with diseases and viruses, does he want you in heaven faster and to stop you from enjoying your life with your family and friends? thats a bit of being selfish of him/her right?

3) did god also want hitler to kill jews? what happen to "all men/(women) are created equal"

*please excuse me from my humor added in as well

[Itsmyship]

Shouldn't this be intigrated with the religion thread we already have going?

Again...no flaring or incessant forms of retardation and spouts of zealousness on both sides of the spectrum.

[LordKerwyn]

Itsmyship, the reason I havn't integrated it is because most of it consists of Itza and don_bocci going at it. Btw this is a reminder I am still watching this thread keep it civil please.

[don_bocci]

Itsmyship, the reason I havn't integrated it is because most of it consists of Itza and don_bocci going at it. Btw this is a reminder I am still watching this thread keep it civil please.

Thanks mod, will do :)
it wouldn't be as fun if we didn't. Though this topic is starting to tire we gotta find something else to have controversial views about Itz :P

@gtx75 I am going to try and say this in the nicest way possible :
Your position is very poorly argued. When in a conversation like this one it would be more appropriate to display your views first before trying to find holes in the opposition's argument. Normally I would just leave you with that but I think I'll unravel this anyway.

First I am not a preacher thank you, I am merely arguing in favor of my views. Second, nowhere in all of Christianity does it say the world was made perfect or anything on it. According to the faith the only perfect being is God. It's our fault that there are so many viruses and such things out and about anyway, they aren't things that God made just so He could brings us to him faster. If we were good that is. For the six days bit read the rest of the thread its in there somewhere. Finally, of course God didn't want to see his children suffer, at most it was just a hardship for people to endure and grow through. You can't really blame God for the death of others because who is it that is doing the killing? We are, we humans who have free-will are, if there is any inequality in this world it is because we created it.


Religion is a way to spread make god known, but there are so many religions. Miracle healings also aren't much to go by. If they haven't been set up in the first place, then there are usually other explanations. It is commonly known that optimism increases life expectancy, and pessimism decreases it. If an optimist has a terminal disease and they truly believe that they're going to fight it off, they have a much greater chance of doing so than a pessimist who gives up because they're certain that they're going to die. A similar thing can happen with 'miracle healings'. The patient who has the miracle heal performed on them will blindly believe that they have actually been healed, which increases their chance of beating the illness.
Ah true enough a positive mind does help. But people going to be healed by sacred artifacts and whatnot get that positive attitude because they actually believe that the item or whatever it is has actual healing powers. To my point of view that would still be a miracle even if I didn't believe in it.


If god proved his existence then that would satisfy human curiosity. We would no longer be curious as to why things are the way they are. Are you so sure? If Jesus came down to you and said "I am God" would you suddenly lose all your curiosity in everything? Sure if you were enlightened then yes I suppose you would but otherwise wouldn't you still want to ask him for some kind of proof or justification as to why He decided to pay you a visit? So basically I am just wondering if you would lose interest in everything or would you perhaps only ask more questions?



The stories that you're saying aren't supposed to be taken literally are the ones that science has proved wrong. We know that a god didn't just instantly create the Earth or instantly invent refraction, so you say that those are the metaphorical ones. If scientists were to one day prove that the creation of life was due to evolution or that everything started from a singularity you'd say that the story of creation was also supposed to be taken metaphorically. Which leads me to wonder whether anything in the Bible is supposed to be true.

The fact that light refracts to make a rainbow doesn't prove that God didn't make it suddenly do so. Your not gonna like this but God being all-powerful could do anything he wants so why not just BAM create refraction on the spot? As I've said a few times now I don't think Noe's Ark is a story, rather it was a historical happening. While I'm on that note why couldn't God make the earth in 6 days and then make it age a couple million years in an instant before he started to put us on it. :P



I'm not trying to turn you into an Atheist or anything. I might be questioning your religion, but I'm not trying to convert you. I couldn't care less if you believed in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (I didn't just make that up by the way, it actually exists).
It's not that you cannot cite where you heard about the chariots that makes me not believe it's true. It's that it doesn't prove that it happened because Moses parted the Red Sea. There are all sorts of ways that it could have happened. Perhaps they were dumped there, perhaps it flooded and washed the chariots in, perhaps there was a battle near the shore, and yes, perhaps Egyptians were chasing Jews across the sea bed, surrounded by walls of vertical water, which proceeded to collapse on them once the Jews reached the other side. Who knows?

Well there were bones and armor from that would have been from around the time of the Exodus, but I suppose thats still fair enough reasoning, so well spoken.


I respect your, and everyone's, competence as well. I don't mean any disrespect to you or anyone else. I'm just stating my views on the current topic, just as you're stating yours.


Thanks I just don't like assumed ignorance.

[ItzaHexGor]

Are you so sure? If Jesus came down to you and said "I am God" would you suddenly lose all your curiosity in everything?

Obviously not if it was just someone who said it, but if god actually showed himself in the skies, visibly performed otherwise impossible miracles, etc, etc, and proved that he/she/it/they were truly the divine deity, why would people question it?

The fact that light refracts to make a rainbow doesn't prove that God didn't make it suddenly do so. Your not gonna like this but God being all-powerful could do anything he wants so why not just BAM create refraction on the spot?

Refraction has been scientifically proven. It cannot not happen. If something is traveling through a denser medium it will move slower than something moving through a sparser medium. Refraction can't not exist. However you can still retaliate by saying 'but god is omnipotent', so it's basically my word against yours.

While I'm on that note why couldn't God make the earth in 6 days and then make it age a couple million years in an instant before he started to put us on it. :P

God supposedly created Adam and Eve on the sixth day, then rested on the seventh, meaning that even though the whole world being created in the six days, human beings were created in one.

Well there were bones and armor from that would have been from around the time of the Exodus, but I suppose thats still fair enough reasoning, so well spoken.

It could have still been the remnants of a battle washed into the Red Sea or something. However the armor could have been washed in with the chariots, and the bones could have been from people who either accidentally drowned or people who were executed that way.

Thanks I just don't like assumed ignorance.

Maybe ignorance wasn't the term I should have used earlier. I just think that as each day passes, I personally find it harder and harder to believe.

[don_bocci]

Obviously not if it was just someone who said it, but if god actually showed himself in the skies, visibly performed otherwise impossible miracles, etc, etc, and proved that he/she/it/they were truly the divine deity, why would people question it? No people wouldn't question that, but would you suddenly lose your curiosity with the rest of the world is what I am saying. As in would you find discover of how a black hole works and such things to still be something your curious about or not?.



Refraction has been scientifically proven. It cannot not happen. If something is traveling through a denser medium it will move slower than something moving through a sparser medium. Refraction can't not exist. However you can still retaliate by saying 'but god is omnipotent', so it's basically my word against yours. Basically was my point.



God supposedly created Adam and Eve on the sixth day, then rested on the seventh, meaning that even though the whole world being created in the six days, human beings were created in one.True true but he could have aged the earth 30 million years in-between his days or whatever else. A day to God could be 30 million which would make the passage still true.



It could have still been the remnants of a battle washed into the Red Sea or something. However the armor could have been washed in with the chariots, and the bones could have been from people who either accidentally drowned or people who were executed that way. Yeah it could have but it would have had to been an entire city according to the amount found on the report.



Maybe ignorance wasn't the term I should have used earlier. I just think that as each day passes, I personally find it harder and harder to believe.


Well its your soul, you can do with it what you like. That is if you believe in the human soul at least.

[ItzaHexGor]

No people wouldn't question that, but would you suddenly lose your curiosity with the rest of the world is what I am saying. As in would you find discover of how a black hole works and such things to still be something your curious about or not?.

Surprisingly, at the moment, we do know almost everything about Black Holes, except for after a certain stage called the event horizon, after which it is impossible to discover what happens, because no apparatus will be able to transmit any more information once it's crossed into this zone. But to answer your question, we would already know how they work. The explanation is that the omnipotent god makes them work, because he's all powerful.

Basically was my point.

How can that be your point? You say that refraction could have been invented in an instant but you agree with me that it can't not exist.

True true but he could have aged the earth 30 million years in-between his days or whatever else. A day to God could be 30 million which would make the passage still true.

We've already discussed the day topic. Days need a celestial body to exist. The celestial body referred to in the Bible is Earth. Therefore it should be counted in Earth days, which are equal to 24 hours. Measuring days without a planet is like measuring the length of a line that doesn't exist. You can't measure it to begin with.

Yeah it could have but it would have had to been an entire city according to the amount found on the report.

I wouldn't be surprised if most battles in those days were large scale ones. Generally speaking, the main thing in your favor when fighting in those types of wars is numbers.

Well its your soul, you can do with it what you like. That is if you believe in the human soul at least.

It depends on what you mean by soul, there are a lot of definitions.
Interestingly enough, a friend at school once said to me that he reckoned that we don't have control over our lives because they're just a series of chemical reactions. It might be a bit hard to understand at first, but there is truth behind it. However him saying this didn't influence his faith as a Christian.

[don_bocci]

Surprisingly, at the moment, we do know almost everything about Black Holes, except for after a certain stage called the event horizon, after which it is impossible to discover what happens, because no apparatus will be able to transmit any more information once it's crossed into this zone. But to answer your question, we would already know how they work. The explanation is that the omnipotent god makes them work, because he's all powerful.
As I said I realize we know a great deal about a lot of the universe, and I know that if God did decide to make himself manifested to all of us that his all-mighty power would explain everything. But my question is to you personally, would you lose all your interest in knowing how things work?


How can that be your point? You say that refraction could have been invented in an instant but you agree with me that it can't not exist. Sorry thats my fault I wasn't specific. I was referring to the fact that its your word against mine.


We've already discussed the day topic. Days need a celestial body to exist. The celestial body referred to in the Bible is Earth. Therefore it should be counted in Earth days, which are equal to 24 hours. Measuring days without a planet is like measuring the length of a line that doesn't exist. You can't measure it to begin with.
Well yes we discussed that, but that's not what we are talking about now. Right now we are talking about perspective, I am just saying that in God's perspective maybe a day to him is 30 million years to us.



I wouldn't be surprised if most battles in those days were large scale ones. Generally speaking, the main thing in your favor when fighting in those types of wars is numbers. Generally speaking yes it was numbers, but then again remember the Spartans. After numbers though technology, tactics and strategy also played their part back then. Most important after numbers would probably be technology, such as in a battle where both sides have equal numbers but one has better tech, the people with the better tech usually win depending of course on the tactics and strategies implemented.

This is slightly off topic but have you ever played Rome Total War?



It depends on what you mean by soul, there are a lot of definitions.
Interestingly enough, a friend at school once said to me that he reckoned that we don't have control over our lives because they're just a series of chemical reactions. It might be a bit hard to understand at first, but there is truth behind it. However him saying this didn't influence his faith as a Christian.

Your friends statement has some truth behind it but not all interactions in life can be explained chemically, such as moral decisions over whats right and wrong. Memory and decisions based on memory can't really be explained chemically speaking, at least not at the moment so

[ItzaHexGor]

As I said I realize we know a great deal about a lot of the universe, and I know that if God did decide to make himself manifested to all of us that his all-mighty power would explain everything. But my question is to you personally, would you lose all your interest in knowing how things work?

If you knew everything about how a car worked, would you still be interested in how it worked? The answer is yes, but you wouldn't keep on studying how it worked. People would still have an interest in it, but they wouldn't be curious about it. In short, if god proved his existence and we now knew how everything worked, we wouldn't be curious but we'd still be interested.

Well yes we discussed that, but that's not what we are talking about now. Right now we are talking about perspective, I am just saying that in God's perspective maybe a day to him is 30 million years to us.

We've also talked about perspective. But, if one day to god is thirty million years to us, what are those thirty million years made up of? Days. It's like saying one minute is equal to ten minutes. However if thirty million years to us feels like a day to god, that just perspective of time. Kinda like how time seems to pass quicker when you're having fun. It doesn't actually pass quicker, it just seems to.

Generally speaking yes it was numbers, but then again remember the Spartans. After numbers though technology, tactics and strategy also played their part back then. Most important after numbers would probably be technology, such as in a battle where both sides have equal numbers but one has better tech, the people with the better tech usually win depending of course on the tactics and strategies implemented.

True, but it costs a lot to equip an army with the highest quality shields, weapons, etc. It is much more cost effective to the rulers to send more soldiers who have bad equipment into battle than it would to send less soldiers who have better equipment. This resulted in a lot of large scale battles.

This is slightly off topic but have you ever played Rome Total War?

I haven't played it, but I've heard it's a good game.
Also, I haven't learnt about the Spartans through watching '300' either, in fact, I haven't even seen the movie at all. However it's a popular topic in my Latin classes and I did an assignment on the Battle of Thermopylae in Year 7 History. They did actually have a lot more than three hundred soldiers, but it's true that only three hundred of them were Spartan (I assume they only have the Spartans in the movie).

Your friends statement has some truth behind it but not all interactions in life can be explained chemically, such as moral decisions over whats right and wrong. Memory and decisions based on memory can't really be explained chemically speaking, at least not at the moment so

You're right, not all of it can be explained chemically because we don't completely know how the brain and nervous system works. However it is true that the brain almost completely works off impulses so it is entirely possible that these impulses are triggered rather than decided by the person, so instead of 'deciding' moral decisions, your choice is actually just the result of these strings of impulses.

[don_bocci]

If you knew everything about how a car worked, would you still be interested in how it worked? The answer is yes, but you wouldn't keep on studying how it worked. People would still have an interest in it, but they wouldn't be curious about it. In short, if god proved his existence and we now knew how everything worked, we wouldn't be curious but we'd still be interested.
Well lets say there are a lot of things you know nothing about would you then still be curious or just interested?



We've also talked about perspective. But, if one day to god is thirty million years to us, what are those thirty million years made up of? Days. It's like saying one minute is equal to ten minutes. However if thirty million years to us feels like a day to god, that just perspective of time. Kinda like how time seems to pass quicker when you're having fun. It doesn't actually pass quicker, it just seems to.
Well that still works then, because if we take it in that way then in the bible it was written from God's perspective meaning that the days he described were in his perspective of days. Ergo each day described in the bible would represent 30 million years (or whatever the number might be).



True, but it costs a lot to equip an army with the highest quality shields, weapons, etc. It is much more cost effective to the rulers to send more soldiers who have bad equipment into battle than it would to send less soldiers who have better equipment. This resulted in a lot of large scale battles. True but if a nation could support the costs of a large army with better equipment then it would still be more beneficial to get said better equipment. Especially since the nation with better support would also more than likely have better trained soldiers.



I haven't played it, but I've heard it's a good game.
Also, I haven't learnt about the Spartans through watching '300' either, in fact, I haven't even seen the movie at all. However it's a popular topic in my Latin classes and I did an assignment on the Battle of Thermopylae in Year 7 History. They did actually have a lot more than three hundred soldiers, but it's true that only three hundred of them were Spartan (I assume they only have the Spartans in the movie).
Again I know it wasn't just the 300 Spartans (I just browse through Greek history and mythology now and then), there were a few thousand other Greek soldiers as well but of the militia variety and very poorly trained compared to the Spartans. Surprisingly though 300 was pretty accurate, aside from the mythological monsters and such, as there were the 300 Spartans along with an army from some other Greek nation. It had some pretty good dialog to if your not just in it for the blood and gore.



You're right, not all of it can be explained chemically because we don't completely know how the brain and nervous system works. However it is true that the brain almost completely works off impulses so it is entirely possible that these impulses are triggered rather than decided by the person, so instead of 'deciding' moral decisions, your choice is actually just the result of these strings of impulses.


Yeah but as a Christian I couldn't believe that the human psyche is made of impulses because then we wouldn't have free will which is one of the corner stones of my belief.

[ItzaHexGor]

Well lets say there are a lot of things you know nothing about would you then still be curious or just interested?

If I have an explanation for how everything worked, I would obviously no longer be curious. That's not to say that I wouldn't still be interested by them, I just wouldn't be curious as to how they work.

Well that still works then, because if we take it in that way then in the bible it was written from God's perspective meaning that the days he described were in his perspective of days. Ergo each day described in the bible would represent 30 million years (or whatever the number might be).

That still doesn't work, because even if by god's perspective it took thirty million years or whatever, it would have still only taken six days. All the perspective stuff just means that god would have been bored while doing all this.

True but if a nation could support the costs of a large army with better equipment then it would still be more beneficial to get said better equipment. Especially since the nation with better support would also more than likely have better trained soldiers.

Not all nations would be able to support a large army with better equipment. That's why they tend to have even larger armies with poor equipment. Regardless, the bones in the Red Sea could have quite possibly, been the result of an ancient battle.

Surprisingly though 300 was pretty accurate, aside from the mythological monsters and such, as there were the 300 Spartans along with an army from some other Greek nation. It had some pretty good dialog to if your not just in it for the blood and gore.

Apart from the three hundred Spartans, think the other soldiers were mainly Thespian recruits and Spartan slaves, so there were actually more than three hundred Spartans, it's just that the rest were slaves. Also, when you say that it's pretty accurate, my Latin teacher strongly disagrees.
Most of the good dialog has come from historical sources. After I told him I had not seen it, a friend of mine kept on telling me how cool the movie was and how awesome the dialog and action was. He gave the example of the line (I'm not sure what it is exactly, but it's along the lines of...) 'The Persians can block out the Sun with arrows!' 'Then we shall fight in the shade'. The funny thing was that I remembered this line from my assignment on The Battle of Thermopylae and told him that it had actually been said, so it didn't actually attribute anything to the movie.

Yeah but as a Christian I couldn't believe that the human psyche is made of impulses because then we wouldn't have free will which is one of the corner stones of my belief.

I thought fate was part of the Christian beliefs.

[don_bocci]

If I have an explanation for how everything worked, I would obviously no longer be curious. That's not to say that I wouldn't still be interested by them, I just wouldn't be curious as to how they work.
Really? Well I applaud you then because I am fairly certain that I would still be curious.




That still doesn't work, because even if by god's perspective it took thirty million years or whatever, it would have still only taken six days. All the perspective stuff just means that god would have been bored while doing all this.
Well I'm not sure if God gets bored but then it does work.



Not all nations would be able to support a large army with better equipment. That's why they tend to have even larger armies with poor equipment. Regardless, the bones in the Red Sea could have quite possibly, been the result of an ancient battle. Not all but some as in Rome or Persia, not sure if Persia had better equipment though mostly numbers. But yes the bones could definitely been from battle but I don't think a battle could explain why they were at the bottom of the Red Sea decked out with armor and chariots and whatnot.



Apart from the three hundred Spartans, think the other soldiers were mainly Thespian recruits and Spartan slaves, so there were actually more than three hundred Spartans, it's just that the rest were slaves. Also, when you say that it's pretty accurate, my Latin teacher strongly disagrees.
Most of the good dialog has come from historical sources. After I told him I had not seen it, a friend of mine kept on telling me how cool the movie was and how awesome the dialog and action was. He gave the example of the line (I'm not sure what it is exactly, but it's along the lines of...) 'The Persians can block out the Sun with arrows!' 'Then we shall fight in the shade'. The funny thing was that I remembered this line from my assignment on The Battle of Thermopylae and told him that it had actually been said, so it didn't actually attribute anything to the movie.
When I say pretty accurate i am mostly referring to some minor dynamics with the Senate, otherwise the implementation of the Phalanx and the slight corruption within the governing parties.

A quote I really like in the movie takes place when the Spartan army meets up with the Thespian army (Thespian does ring a bell in this situation). The Thespians in the movie had heard about the Spartan's movement to defend the coast so they had just joined up and explained this when the Thespian army commented on how the they thought that the Spartan's would bring many soldiers and king (I forget his name) responds by asking three or four of the Thespian what is their job. They respond thus: "I am a blacksmith", "I am a carpenter", "I am a farmer." king T-something then asks his army what their occupation was and they responded in unison: "WARRIORS OF SPARTA!" then king T-something says to the Thespian commander: "It looks like I brought more soldiers than you."

Sorry that was really long but I do rather like it because it actually rings true mostly because Spartan's were trained to be warriors from birth, so strong was their military in fact that Sparta didn't have walls around their city for a long time. I think that's how I read it anyway its been a while though so I'm not sure if I am absolutely correct here.




I thought fate was part of the Christian beliefs.


That is an interesting misconception really. You see we believe God knows what is going to happen but we still have a choice in regards to what is going to happen. So we are given the right to chose how we live, but God already knows what we are going to do.

On the flip side if you accept God into your life fully then he will tell you what he plans for you. So it is free will but God still has the omniscience going for him so he knows whats going to happen either way.

I just said the same thing three times but o well.

[ItzaHexGor]

Really? Well I applaud you then because I am fairly certain that I would still be curious.

If you know how something works, why would you be curious? You'd still be interested, but why curious?

Well I'm not sure if God gets bored but then it does work.

That wasn't really the point of my comment, I was just tying it in to how people's perspective's of time is not always constant.

But yes the bones could definitely been from battle but I don't think a battle could explain why they were at the bottom of the Red Sea decked out with armor and chariots and whatnot.

Why can't the Red Sea have swollen and washed in all of the bones? Or why couldn't the bodies, etc, have been dumped in the Sea? It'd be much quicker than cremating/burying each body. Also, where did you actually hear that there were remnants on the seabed?

Sorry that was really long but I do rather like it because it actually rings true mostly because Spartan's were trained to be warriors from birth, so strong was their military in fact that Sparta didn't have walls around their city for a long time. I think that's how I read it anyway its been a while though so I'm not sure if I am absolutely correct here.

I'm not saying that the Spartans weren't strong, I'm saying that most battles in those times were large scale battles, Including the Battle of Thermopylae, because of the number of Persians.

That is an interesting misconception really. You see we believe God knows what is going to happen but we still have a choice in regards to what is going to happen. So we are given the right to chose how we live, but God already knows what we are going to do.

If an omniscient god knows what is going to happen, then no matter what, there isn't anything we can do to change it. Whatever choices we make, they will lead us to what the god foresees. We may feel like it is we who are in control, but if we are destined to make those choices, then how isn't that fate?

[furrer]

ItzaHexGor and don_bocci
How much minerals