Melee Interceptors?

[Ghost]

Ive noticed in the new PC Gamer scans the tempest's interceptor's have what seems to be blades on their sides, they look like the batman symbol :thumbup:

I also noticed that in the entire screenie they seem not to be shooting anything so this popped into my head, what if the tempests interceptors are flying melee units that can attack both the land and the air. :P

In my opinion that is AWSOME, this means that the Tempest is definately a dark templar ship, no DT unit in SC1 is ranged wither (with exeptions of the dark archons spells).

Any thoughts?

[Nikzad]

hey i think they discussed this in the tempest thread but yeah in one of the articles someone linked a scan of it says that they have disc fighters, and that it has no air shields but shields that are activated when shot from the ground

it's gonna look sick tearing through massed hydralisks, cutting them in half

[MrFrancko]

That's a pretty interesting concept.

[GuiMontag]

there not melee, if you loook realy closely you can see them atacking with a blue pulse thingy, its realy hard to tell it apart from its sheilds

[ZiiDriX]

Put up a picture so we can see. Either the lazer or when it melee :)

[wolfblood]

Hehe melee would be totally cool :D just love that thought

[Ghost]

Man, I was and am hoping for disc-fighters. That would be totally awsome.

[Zerat]

I think the blue "buble" is a shield
and the thing is atacking by simply cuting the target in 2 :)

[GuiMontag]

cant get the image to upload here....
http://gallery.filefront.com/guimontag//618374/#
the blue line looks like a laser attack, its almost unnoticable when watching the video

[generalrievous]

hmm well judging by how they are disk like aircraft and seem to have blades on each side of the craft (could be wings though) I think its a good guess to say its a melee craft :good:

[[LightMare]]

excellent finding. but, the stalker is ranged, but those interceptors are gonna be super slick

[MrFrancko]

I hope they get the sound down right. A good buzzing and slashing noise. I love it.

[ZiiDriX]

Can only be lazer, only appears where Intercepters are.

[Becka1988]

hey guys i read that the tempest cant attack air, it reminded me of the guardian like that

[paragon]

hey guys i read that the tempest cant attack air, it reminded me of the guardian like that

Where did you read that?
If it's true it would be really dumb.

Protoss1: Hey guys, since Aiur is in Zerg hands, lets just not remake the big shipyards we had so we can more easily take back our homeworld with carriers, lets instead make these smaller Dark Templar carrier-like vessels that have no defense against air and can't even attack air.
Protoss2: You're dumb.
Protoss3: What are you talking about Protoss2, thats a great idea Protoss1.
Protoss2: They'll just be flying around and ALWAYS need support from Warp Rays and Tempests thus causing an even bigger financial strain because they'll just get ass raped by any air that comes by.
Protoss1: Haha Protoss2 thats the dumbest thing I've heard and I'm 700 years old. Tempests will just evade them.
Protoss2: I slept with your wife.
Protoss1: You WHAT?!
Protoss3: Damn.

[Becka1988]

hey guys i read that the tempest cant attack air, it reminded me of the guardian like that

Where did you read that?


your art rocks! i watched some of the movie and i read the article on the page here. :P

[surr]

lol funny but i serisouly hate the tempest....
SInce the protoss is an ancient race they decided they want to go backwards...invent the tempest who sucks to everything compare to carriers and have the gayest shield that "activates only v ground" like serisouly is it that hard to make on that goes around the whole ship?? they did it with carriers but i guess the engineers is suffering from memory loss and decided to make a dumber version of the mighty carrier... and they even take out the damn arbiter,,,what are they thinking .... lets not forget they abondoned the anti building ability for the corasiers which was a really good thinking... lets invent something and dont use it later

[Fenix]

hey guys i read that the tempest cant attack air, it reminded me of the guardian like that

Where did you read that?
If it's true it would be really dumb.


Page five homes.

"It will have no defense whatsoever against air attacks"

Means no shields, no way to take 'em down.

[NotDeadYet]

Since when are Interceptors defense? Anyways, Tempests CAN attack air. You can see one attack a Battlecruiser in the last scene of the leaked video. Look for green sparks - Those appear whenever a Melee Interceptor strikes a target.

[Fenix]

No defense means no defense. Offense is a defense.

[paragon]

I assumed that by defense they meant their shield. Cause if you really want to take the liberal stance on the word "defense" as also being offensive capabilities, then do you also assume that the armor modifiers don't come into effect when air units attack it? That is also part of the defense. Same with the regular HP if you want to be really liberal about it.

So, I think defense means the shield.

[overmind]

Build 'Buzzers':
Tempests build and house a group of tiny robotic fighters armed with buzz saws. In battle, these are launched against the enemy, much as interceptors in the original Starcraft. The tempest itself has no attack.

The desire for increased speed has forced the Dark Templar to go with a far less robust construction than original carrier. In addition, the interceptors have be simplified, so that they may slice the enemy with saw blades that require far less maintenance than energy weapons used previously

that also explains the weakness of the tempests.

[SirBaron]

Build 'Buzzers':
Tempests build and house a group of tiny robotic fighters armed with buzz saws. In battle, these are launched against the enemy, much as interceptors in the original Starcraft. The tempest itself has no attack.

The desire for increased speed has forced the Dark Templar to go with a far less robust construction than original carrier. In addition, the interceptors have be simplified, so that they may slice the enemy with saw blades that require far less maintenance than energy weapons used previously

that also explains the weakness of the tempests.

I hope one may expect some serious cost reduction for all of these "weaknesses".

[overmind]

Build 'Buzzers':
Tempests build and house a group of tiny robotic fighters armed with buzz saws. In battle, these are launched against the enemy, much as interceptors in the original Starcraft. The tempest itself has no attack.

The desire for increased speed has forced the Dark Templar to go with a far less robust construction than original carrier. In addition, the interceptors have be simplified, so that they may slice the enemy with saw blades that require far less maintenance than energy weapons used previously

that also explains the weakness of the tempests.

I hope one may expect some serious cost reduction for all of these "weaknesses".


With the loss of Auir, the Protoss no longer had the material resources for constructing their massive carriers. Instead, they turned to the Dark Templar to similar technologies. The result is the Tempest, a modified schematic of the original Carrier that's tailored specifically for destroying tough enemy fortifications In order to be cheaper to produce, and yet still deadly against their intended targets, tempests had to make several trade-offs.
you'd presume so.

[Remy]

Since when are Interceptors defense? Anyways, Tempests CAN attack air. You can see one attack a Battlecruiser in the last scene of the leaked video. Look for green sparks - Those appear whenever a Melee Interceptor strikes a target.


The green sparks you speak of are from stalker attacks, not tempest "interceptors."

I'm with Fenix on this one. No defense against air WHATSOEVER sure sounds like no air attack to me.

But not just that. It seems like this time around tempests are cheaper and weaker versions of carriers, you see one die to a single yamato in the leaked vid. I counted 7 regular BC hits to take down the second one, when it seemed like it took 3 BC hits to take down a stalker.

It would also go well with everything else that's happening with SC2 so far. Blizz is pushing unit mixing and hard counters much harder for SC2, as well as more unit specialization. It is quite logical in this sense for Blizz to force you to have AA accompanying the tempests.

While not necessarily lower on the tech tree, cheaper tempests will also mean that they will be more accessible. It is feasible to believe that Blizz wants to see more tempest usage in multiplayer. All in all, it makes sense to me to have a cheaper more accessible carrier unit at the cost of no air attack.

I don't understand why people are fussing about no air attack. Who the hell got carriers for AA any damn way? I for one was never impressed with carriers in the first game. They were resource/food hogs that could still be taken care of quite easily. If time/cost is reduced to get them out sooner to do their job vs ground, then it is only better on a whole for Toss players.

[thitian]

i agree with fenix too if it could engage a single mutalisk attacking it it would probably kill it and therefore have defence vs air..

i personally like a cheaper ground only tempest ive hardly ever seen someone using carriers in a multiplayer game they were just for single or vs comp. when already winning and didnt need to care about resources...

tempest looks like a great defense earlier in the game assuming its cheaper than a carrier.. buzz saws from interceptors sounds like full damage to ground units to me and therefore will be quite effective especially against zerg
as well i really like the fact that actually someone will build them in mp games :powerup:

[FlyingTiger]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a125/flyswimmer716/tempest.jpg

eh when I still look at this description, it seems like they are still talking about the shield. I know semantics definetly come into play here. I mean yes an offense can equal a defense, but an offense can also mean, well, an offense. However, Fenix does have a good point. And the word whatsoever just makes me convince otherwise. lol we will seeeeeee

[burkid]

im with fenix too. blizzard doesnt want you to mass carriers so you automatically win, so they give them a weakness. all you need to do is mix them in with warp rays and pheonix to have a kickass armada

[paragon]

Well you couldn't mass carriers to win in SC either even after they reduced it to 6 food. If you did get away with it, it was because your opponent sucked.

[FlyingTiger]

yea mass carriers that are prolly going to get stacked with careless micro and go against a good terran (EMPs/lockdown) or protoss (high templars/other carriers?) or zerg (deiflers + scourges) player and you will be in for a surprise.

[DontHate]

God the tempest looks so cool, and so does the shield. i also like the only ground sheild becuase there is an easier way to killing them now. also those inteceptor thingies look awesome. can't wait. btw i'm new! ;)
I saw the little lazer it shoots out though, and i don't think it is a melee thing.

[FlyingTiger]

haha yea they have some sort of disc launcher.

welcome to the forums! ^_^

[Remy]

Massing carriers was one of my favorite strats in SC1... as Zerg. When I see that, 99.9% of the time meant that I've already won.

Putting the validity of mass carrier strat aside, taking away air attack while making them cheaper and weaker does serve to keep players from massing them, all the while making them more accessible in general multiplayer.

I must give props to Blizz on this one. I really had so little respect for carriers that I was almost sure that they had to be scrapped, especially after I saw the MS. But they've really found the perfect solution on that one. /applause

[ProjectArc]

hey guys i read that the tempest cant attack air, it reminded me of the guardian like that

Where did you read that?
If it's true it would be really dumb.

Protoss1: Hey guys, since Aiur is in Zerg hands, lets just not remake the big shipyards we had so we can more easily take back our homeworld with carriers, lets instead make these smaller Dark Templar carrier-like vessels that have no defense against air and can't even attack air.
Protoss2: You're dumb.
Protoss3: What are you talking about Protoss2, thats a great idea Protoss1.
Protoss2: They'll just be flying around and ALWAYS need support from Warp Rays and Tempests thus causing an even bigger financial strain because they'll just get ass raped by any air that comes by.
Protoss1: Haha Protoss2 thats the dumbest thing I've heard and I'm 700 years old. Tempests will just evade them.
Protoss2: I slept with your wife.
Protoss1: You WHAT?!
Protoss3: Damn.


LOL The chat with Protosses sound very funny

[paragon]

Massing carriers was one of my favorite strats in SC1... as Zerg. When I see that, 99.9% of the time meant that I've already won.

Same with terran


I must give props to Blizz on this one. I really had so little respect for carriers that I was almost sure that they had to be scrapped, especially after I saw the MS. But they've really found the perfect solution on that one. /applause

By making them even easier to kill?
At least people wont mass tempests... hopefully.

[DontHate]

well now there's an easier counter fro the carriers and you can't just win with only them.

[paragon]

well now there's an easier counter fro the carriers and you can't just win with only them.

You could only beat people who sucked before.

[burkid]

well these new carriers still fit a niche. they can effectivly eliminate ground forces and static defences. and they're cheaper.

[paragon]

they can effectivly eliminate ground forces and static defences. and they're cheaper.

They can supposedly effectively do that.

[burkid]

well they have the special GTA shield and no ATA shield... what else would you use them for?

[paragon]

well they have the special GTA shield and no ATA shield... what else would you use them for?

Their use isn't being disputed. How effective they are at it is.

[burkid]

well i guess effectivness will just have to wait for the beta :P

[paragon]

well i guess effectivness will just have to wait for the beta :P

Yes. Or a video where they actually kill something quickly (they really didn't in the leaked video).
I hope I get to play the beta.

[burkid]

me too

[paragon]

Do these interceptors focus on one target like carrier interceptors did or do they attack multiple targets? I can't tell from the video.

[burkid]

i think that they attack everything in range, but i suppose if you tell the tempest to attack one thing they would focus on that.

[paragon]

i think that they attack everything in range, but i suppose if you tell the tempest to attack one thing they would focus on that.

They better focus fire when I tell them to.

[burkid]

*protoss player attacks missle turret with tempest*
"once this turret is down i got a clear shot at the SCVs...WTF! WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING THAT SUPPLY DEPOT! ATTACK THE TURRET! ATTACK THE TURRET!"
*tempest dies*
"son of a ...."
*leaves*

[Remy]

Reaver didn't have AA. Reavers were also attackable by all ground units that didn't have AA, not to mention they were the slowest moving units in the entire game of SC. But if you ask me, the reaver was the best Toss combat unit in SC1.

Tempest is an improved carrier, no AA is a non-issue. Having AA didn't make carriers hard to destroy with air in the first game. Air-to-ground siege capability was the main reason for having carriers in the first game, that returns in SC2, but more accessible. That's an improvement.

[Ych9]

I really love the Tempest new looks. Soo slick and sexy.
But one thing I don't get is how the shield work. Does it work like the Immortals shield, but only against Ground targets?

One thing I find funny is how many people assumed that the Carriers in SC1 were instant win. Just like Remy said, when I see people teching to Carriers, I usually let them do that, and build a counter for it. I don't want to rush their base and finish them. It always feels soo good when they come to my base with 12 Carriers + Arbiters thinking they are going to win, but then, 1 min later, I totally destroyed his Carrier + Arbiter fleet. Probably broke a lot of peoples heart when I did that because even many people even today still believed that Carriers are instant win.

[Proxy-serva]

I really love the Tempest new looks. Soo slick and sexy.
But one thing I don't get is how the shield work. Does it work like the Immortals shield, but only against Ground targets?
yes only vs groung attack...
they are really not good than vs flying enemys like the phoenix...

[burkid]

^thats why you mix units

[paragon]

Thing is remy, they appear to do less damage then carriers. granted they are probably cheaper to make.

[Ghost]

I like them, finally gonna get peeps to stop massing. Although i did love screwing mass carriers and basically mass anything.

Phoenix is anti muta massing too =D

[paragon]

Yeah I doubt too many people will be massing mutalisks in starcraft 2.

[Remy]

Thing is remy, they appear to do less damage then carriers. granted they are probably cheaper to make.


I think it's a little early and scarce on details to make that assumption.

First of all, based on carriers, you can already tell that there was no focus fire happening with the tempests whatsoever.  In the leaked vid, I think the only thing that got killed was one missile turret.  Based on SC1 stats, it would take 34 hits from a carrier/tempest to destroy a turret.

It's nearly impossible to clearly see the interceptors attacking, so accurate counting is out of the question.  But if you watch the vid again looking at only the one turret while keeping 34 hits in mind, it looks about right.

Although not nearly impossible, I wouldn't say tempests do less damage than carriers just yet.  However, even if it did turn out to be so, I believe it would still be well justified, cost efficient, and just simply better than before.

[burkid]

yeah if it doesnt bankrupt you to get them, theyll be much better than carriers, especially if it does indeed have a hardened GTA shield.

[paragon]

Either way, I'll look forward to utterly destroying them with wraiths.

[burkid]

only if they dont have pheonix and warp ray guards.

[paragon]

2 Science vessels defense matrixing each other to find the observer(s) take those out with the wraiths real quick then cloak. Untouchable.

[LimaBeanMage]

I like them, finally gonna get peeps to stop massing. Although i did love screwing mass carriers and basically mass anything.

Phoenix is anti muta massing too =D


I don't know about that. If tempests are indeed weaker than carriers then I think people will be massing them more often. Carriers were useful in groups of 3-4, but to match that you'll have to have 5-6 tempests, if not more.

Edit: Actually, the new phrase will be Mass mass tempest = instant win. ^_^

[burkid]

^unless they have, oh i dont know, maybe...[i]air!

[paragon]

haha if someone masses tempests i'll laugh so hard. And then obliterate them with wraiths.

[burkid]

if someone masses tempest, ill get a few pheonix and take my sweet time killing them all. i might use overload a few times just because it looks cool.

[paragon]

plus overload will probably kill every interceptor they have.

[burkid]

assuming that their interceptors can even attack air.

[paragon]

well i was thinking more along the lines of they were attacking your base and you just overload on all their interceptors killing them rather quickly.

[burkid]

oh. well that works too. i just wanna see the million explosions from overloading on mass tempests with their interceptors deployed. if there were 12 tempests and 12 interceptors each, thats 144! thats a lost of things firing from overload.

[[LightMare]]

it's a shame we never see the tempest use its interceptors to attack. or, are they still called interceptors?

[Remy]

We have. The missile turret in the leaked vid didn't blow itself up.

[[LightMare]]

oh. are they melee?

[Remy]

It appears that way to me, but it's really hard to tell visually.

[paragon]

Two things make it pretty clear that at least in this stage of development they are in fact melee interceptors:
1) There is no visible attack shown by them that would lead anyone to believe they were ranged
2) they spin

[[LightMare]]

they have blade looking things on either side of of the center, and we don't know if they are called interceptors!

[burkid]

well what else are we gonna call them?
saw-ers? flowers?

[Itsmyship]

Bat-erangs!!!!

[Ghost]

Lol baterangs, and I hadn't thought of the inmense damage an overload would do to a tempest, killings its ammo lol. Paragon, nice strat with the two defensive matrix science vessels spotting ovservers.

[paragon]

well i figured one science vessel wouldn't last long enough and if there are two they might as well defense matix each other

[Ghost]

Yea, did you make that one up?

[paragon]

yes. right on the spot too.

[Remy]

Just comsat scan. Comsats are the bomb.

[Patuljak]

I think there's an awfully lot of toss units that can't attack air...

[Remy]

Not any more than Zerg, the Zerg of SC1 anyway.

If we assume twilight archons can attack air like SC1 archons and the "fusion beam" of star relics is a normal attack that can also attack air, then Protoss so far has just as many units that can attack air as before.

Out of the four air attacking Zerg units in SC1, only one is a ground unit, and one is suicidal/sacrificial.  What Toss has isn't below standard, I don't think you need to worry.

[Patuljak]

Well, I just miss a solid basic type of AA like the dragoons. Stalkers just didn't convince me as much that they'll be effective against air, but I'm talking about feeling here.

[Remy]

That remains to be seen. My feeling is that stalkers will be superior to or at least match goons in every way, also more masser friendly than goons.

[paragon]

Well, I just miss a solid basic type of AA like the dragoons. Stalkers just didn't convince me as much that they'll be effective against air, but I'm talking about feeling here.

They took out a battlecruiser with no trouble. And that was only 3 of them.

[burkid]

Well, I just miss a solid basic type of AA like the dragoons. Stalkers just didn't convince me as much that they'll be effective against air, but I'm talking about feeling here.

not only did they take down the BC (^paragons post) but they can blink too, and they arnt as big as dragoons, and they probably have a better AI. and they might be cheaper, so if 3 can take down a BC no problem, imagine what 10 could do.

[paragon]

10 focus firing a battlecruiser would be *bam* *bam* *battlecruiser dead*

[burkid]

exactly, and if a BC starts to yamato one, they can blink out of range and waste the BC's energy, then resume to attack.

[paragon]

Hmm I wonder if blinking when a projectile from a regular attack (such as that of a battlecruiser) is headed towards a unit would cause the projectile to miss. In theory a korean would be able to use blink effectively enough so that they don't even take damage.

[burkid]

well i was thinking while yamato was charging, blink.
that would be cool, but suck for fighting protoss.

[Ghost]

Lol, koreans somehow manage to get gaming skillz from birth xD

If the projectile-evasion is true, they can be used to dodge siege tank shells and (if a BC commander is crazy enough to do) evade loading Yamato guns.

EDIT: Sorry for repeating the yamato cannon thing, i got that error.

[Remy]

You can not manuever away from a charging yamato. If it starts to charge on you, your'e gonna get hit. The only cases where you won't eat the yama even though it started to charge on you would be premature death(of either you or the BC), recall, or stasis.

I believe this is true for all ranged attacks in SC as well, although the difference with yamato is that the charging is part of the attack animation/process.

[Ghost]

While the huge beam fires towards you, if you are alert and aware, i recon that you can blink out of the area to evade it, of will the yamato just hit the ground and deal the damage to the stalker anyway?

[burkid]

blink might let you dodge attacks.

[Ghost]

Yeah, thats what I mean.

[Remy]

You will eat the yama 100% no matter how fast you get away.

There were some pretty fast units in SC1 and yama range is huge to begin with, but you still can't escape it.

I doubt blink will let you evade even a single normal ranged attack.

[Light]

in sc, a ranged attack almost allways hits (exept the interceptors sometimes).that could still remain in sc2 . hasnt this accuracy been discussed somewhere else?

[Ghost]

You will eat the yama 100% no matter how fast you get away.

There were some pretty fast units in SC1 and yama range is huge to begin with, but you still can't escape it.

I doubt blink will let you evade even a single normal ranged attack.


I hope you can't, cuz im sure someone will figure out how to endlessly dodge attacks with megamaniac mirco.

[DontHate]

maybe they'll change it in sc2. i mean c'mon, there are so many new things the new engine thing can do. Like the collosus can go up stuff, and maybe they can have like units miss in sc2.

[Patuljak]

Blinking to avoid attacks could be cool, and a bigger chance to miss and all, but on the other hand, I don't want another Warcraft 3...

[burkid]

I hope you can't, cuz im sure someone will figure out how to endlessly dodge attacks with megamaniac mirco.

but you couldnt do that because blink has a cooldown. watch the icon for it in the gameplay vid if you dont believe me.

[Itsmyship]

Blinking to avoid attacks could be cool, and a bigger chance to miss and all, but on the other hand, I don't want another Warcraft 3...


Yeah, but that was solely a hero ability, even in that sense, you can't have too much strategy with that. With Stalkers having blink, its a lot more strategical and gives you reason to expand your ideas

[Ghost]

Yeah, flanking and such.

Giving the units the chance to miss depending where they stand might be from WC3, but it adds a whole different level of makeplay and its a good idea.

[LimaBeanMage]

I think blink will be able to avoid some attacks. Avoiding a siege tank would be relatively easy because siege tanks don't really attack the unit, it doesn't matter where the hit lands it will deal the same splash damage to everything around it. However, the yamato cannon will hit, in my opinion. It's an ability that targets a single unit, I don't think blizzard will let someone avoid that.

I don't think an accuracy system should be added to SC2. It doesn't add dimension to the game because the complications of missing a target can't be balanced. There are so many things you would do to heighten your accuracy in real life, or strategies to lessen the enemies, and only a few, if relatively none, can be put in the a RTS like SC.

[PowerkickasS]

i said somewhere before that the presenter was talking about firepower in real dimension and physics
and i also said that most of the firepower are near instant-speeds so dodging would be unlikely
blink would probably definitely work in dodging. well, at least 1 or two shots from a big mass lol
id say yamato would be homing. and why would you wanna yama stalkers -.-


The only cases where you won't eat the yama even though it started to charge on you would be premature death(of either you or the BC), recall, or stasis.

amazingly enough, and speaking from experience....not recall!

[Ghost]

and why would you wanna yama stalkers -.-


I DID mention that a BC Commander would have to be nuts to do that.

[PowerkickasS]

just as crazy as the protoss captain who thought of replacing pulse cannons with melee on interceptors....

[paragon]

You can not manuever away from a charging yamato. If it starts to charge on you, your'e gonna get hit. The only cases where you won't eat the yama even though it started to charge on you would be premature death(of either you or the BC), recall, or stasis.

I believe this is true for all ranged attacks in SC as well, although the difference with yamato is that the charging is part of the attack animation/process.

The problem is you're thinking StarCraft. This is StarCraft 2. All the projectiles are actual objects in the game that work within the physics of the game. And it would look ridiculous if a yamato blast or attack made a U turn because the stalker blinked behind the battlecruiser right after it had fired. (yes I know arrows and other things in Warcraft 3 make turns and even U turns on occasion but hopefully they are better about that now) (getting killed by a storm bolt that makes a U turn to hit you is very dumb)

I've also heard stories of units that used to outrun yamato blasts if the unit was target while it was running past the battlecruiser and kept running in a straight line. I don't remember which unit it was but it was the fastest one in the game.

[Itsmyship]

fastest ones i can think of are mutas or corsairs, im gonna guess a corsair, although i can't see why they'd use a yamato on a corsair.

[lilchibikun]

it might be a bit of trouble,
but if tempests recruit melee interceptors, they should also recruit ranged ones.

the tempests can carry melee and ranged interceptors. thatd be really tight :D

[paragon]

The tempest itself still has a ranged attack, it's just that instead of hitting the target and exploding like missiles or energy weapons, it hits the target while spinning around and then swoops around to hit it again and again and again and again. And there are 12 of these things instead of just 1.

*imagines making a unit with a magical boomerang attack where it only has one of these spinning interceptors and it "throws" it and then the boomerang attacks the enemy until it is dead*

[burkid]

its like the magic boomerang paragon described that can 'paint' targets so it attacks them till they or it are dead. or until you tell them to hit something else. and theres 12 boomerangs.

[Remy]

Graphical representation and in-game handling of projectile/missile physics have little to do with attack accuracy in Blizzard RTS games. You can not manuever away from ranged attacks that are already en route. Meaning, if the attacking unit has already finished attacking you, you're gonna get hit, as simple as that. If you move out of range and not get hit, it will simply mean that you did so while the attacking unit is still in attack cooldown. This is true for SC and WC3, but I'm already 99% sure for SC2 as well.

In the leaked vid you see turret missiles curving like mofos chasing down interceptors. As for the hits landing, someone suggested that there is hit evasion mechanic in SC2 based on cannons and stalkers visually missing reapers. I already explained why that's false in the evasion thread so check there for that.

I'm gonna tell you right now that blink won't evade jack. If blink had some unbelievably huge range I might consider wavering for a second, but no it doesn't. But quite simply, it just won't work for SC and it's also not the direction Blizz has taken things. Everything we've seen so far that showed any indication of SC2 mechanics suggest that it's the same old uber-tracking system from SC and WC3. It makes no sense for them to rip that out and recreate a brand new mechanic just to let blink evade. Just won't happen, especially when it already applys to everything else we've seen in SC2 so far.

The fact that projectiles are actual rendered objects also have little meaning, we already had that in WC3, it's nothing new. The worst case of uber-tracking in WC3 that I've had was a crypt fiend's missile attack teleporting back to town with my near death hero getting in the last hit and killing him.

And to PowerkickasS, recalling a targeted unit to the other side of the map before yama finishes charging does save you.

Also, if tempests behave like carriers did, then the tempest will have no attack itself even if the interceptors are melee. There is a difference, but that's only if they are indeed like carriers.

[PowerkickasS]

/ignore remy

The tempest itself still has a ranged attack, it's just that instead of hitting the target and exploding like missiles or energy weapons, it hits the target while spinning around and then swoops around to hit it again and again and again and again. And there are 12 of these things instead of just 1.

*imagines making a unit with a magical boomerang attack where it only has one of these spinning interceptors and it "throws" it and then the boomerang attacks the enemy until it is dead*

im lost now. are you saying the tempest's attack is the interceptors or something different?

[Ghost]

(getting killed by a storm bolt that makes a U turn to hit you is very dumb)


Its not dumb...*sniff*... its MAGICAL!

[burkid]

im lost now. are you saying the tempest's attack is the interceptors or something different?

no. it is interceptors. the 'magic boomerang' paragon was describing was a melee interceptor.

[Meee]

(getting killed by a storm bolt that makes a U turn to hit you is very dumb)


Its not dumb...*sniff*... its MAGICAL!


I can see homing magic hammer (Thor ftw), but regular arrows?

[paragon]

In the leaked vid you see turret missiles curving like mofos chasing down interceptors.

Er... actual missiles have homing abilities. Lasers on the other hand go straight.


The fact that projectiles are actual rendered objects also have little meaning, we already had that in WC3, it's nothing new. The worst case of uber-tracking in WC3 that I've had was a crypt fiend's missile attack teleporting back to town with my near death hero getting in the last hit and killing him.

In the warcraft 3 editor there is a setting on every unit's attack that lets you turn homing on or off. When things don't home in on targets and don't hit the target, the target is not hit and takes no damage (see mortar team). It would make no sense to rip this function out just so you can have lasers and energy blasts home in on units in starcraft 2.

[DontHate]

You can not manuever away from a charging yamato. If it starts to charge on you, your'e gonna get hit. The only cases where you won't eat the yama even though it started to charge on you would be premature death(of either you or the BC), recall, or stasis.

I believe this is true for all ranged attacks in SC as well, although the difference with yamato is that the charging is part of the attack animation/process.

The problem is you're thinking StarCraft. This is StarCraft 2. All the projectiles are actual objects in the game that work within the physics of the game. And it would look ridiculous if a yamato blast or attack made a U turn because the stalker blinked behind the battlecruiser right after it had fired. (yes I know arrows and other things in Warcraft 3 make turns and even U turns on occasion but hopefully they are better about that now) (getting killed by a storm bolt that makes a U turn to hit you is very dumb)
exacly, t'is what i said.
also, the melee interceptors sound really dumb. i mean, there is no difference becuase it would take the same time for a ranged interceptor to attack than a melle one. essentially they are all "melle" becuase they have to get close to the target to attack.

[paragon]

and interceptors pass by the target anyways when they converge and then loop around.

[Patuljak]

Actually, I think it's not. Units that can attack only ground couldn't attack the ranged interceptors back, but they will probably be able to attack the melee interceptor when it hits them. At least it should be that way, imo. It does sound logical.

[Ghost]

I really doubt that, it just sounds to detailed.

[paragon]

I doubt anything would have enough time to react some something flying that fast AND hitting them

[Remy]

In the warcraft 3 editor there is a setting on every unit's attack that lets you turn homing on or off. When things don't home in on targets and don't hit the target, the target is not hit and takes no damage (see mortar team). It would make no sense to rip this function out just so you can have lasers and energy blasts home in on units in starcraft 2.


I don't know much about the WC3 editor an its functions, but in-game, all missile attacks that can't "attack ground" all track, such as archer arrows and whatnot. Again, I don't know too much about the editor, but I suspect the ability to turn off homing exist in the first place because of siege units and the how they had attack ground which didn't track anything. Also, beam type attacks don't need to bend to track. All they need to do is keep points A and B connected with a line, even if B keeps on moving.

The most important thing about ranged vs melee for interceptors is how they interact with darkswarm. Ranged is useless against darkswarm, but anything melee would be able to deal damage. That's the only gameplay effecting application I could think of so far.

As for the difference between a tempest essentially having a ranged attack with interceptors(baterangs) as its projectiles, and interceptors being separate units while tempest itself has no attack, is that the tempest not having an attack cooldown from it having no attack. A devourer's acid spore, which increase attack cooldown, has no slowing effect on carriers because they do not have an attack themselves.

[paragon]

I was making an example. I didn't mean the tempest had an actual attack. I meant that using it's attack button controls the interceptors
But yes, colossi energy weapons don't home in on targets so why would other energy weapons?

[FlyingTiger]

Might as well bump this just in case someone makes a new topic of this.

Sooo the tempest interceptors are melee and they attack both air and ground. (I can see they attack air because of that screenshot with the tempest and the bunches of mutas that are attacking).

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/gallery/10_12_07_07_6_31_12.jpg (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/319/65839804ll9.jpg)

Thoughts?

[Ghost]

Btw they are called Shurikens, yes, like the ninja throwing star.

And yes, they can attack air but still have NO AIR SHIELDS.

[generalrievous]

I like em makes it where you have to watch over your carriers or tempest more so than you did in sc

[Ghost]

Yeah, in SC1 you could just attack move you massed carriers just about anywhere and get satisfying results.

[Dreadnought]

Devourers would hit the interceptors with their attacks splash goo effect and slow their movement and attack speed. The same could happen to these shuriken things. Slows them down so it takes longer for them to circle around and attack again.

[burkid]

i wanna know what those towers are in the screenshot.

[Dreadnought]

They need to release more protoss buildings (i know they arent as interesting as units but cmon they are important).
Also they need to update the site with more screen shots! The shurikens seem to act just like interceptors in the way they move. Im sure they will be attackable just like interceptors. Which is a nuisance for every other unit because its so hard to him them.

[mc2]

I doubt anything would have enough time to react some something flying that fast AND hitting them


Agreed.
Besides, as soon as an interceptor gets hit by one attack, it'll return to the tempest/carrier and instantly recharge its shields. So their life expectancy is very high.

[Remy]

If the tempest indeed has an air attack then I'm confused.

I see everywhere that it is emphasized that the tempest has no air shield and was described as having no defense against air whatsoever.  But if it has an air attack, shouldn't the heavy emphasis be on has shield against ground?? And instead of "no defense against air whatsoever," it should really be "even better defense against ground."

Not only is it not much difference from a carrier at all, it has improved defenses against attacks from the ground.  I'm very curious as to what having no shield against air actually means.

[GuiMontag]

it means that when attacked by air the tempest has no sheild at all...

[Remy]

That's my point exactly. When has a carrier had shield against anything?

It is strange that they're not emphasizing this new found strength versus ground attacks, but rather emphasizing to point out something that has always been the case. Makes no sense at all.

[GuiMontag]

im not sure what you mean by the carrier not having a sheild against anything???

[Armadeo]

That's my point exactly. When has a carrier had shield against anything?

It is strange that they're not emphasizing this new found strength versus ground attacks, but rather emphasizing to point out something that has always been the case. Makes no sense at all.


Carriers have always had basic Protoss shields against air and ground units. The Tempest doesn't have the basic shield against air units. Therefore every hit it takes from an air unit will immediately start chipping away at its hp. Even though the Tempest is capable of attacking air units, it remains very vulnerable to them.

Personally, I love the tempest. Its the Protoss counterpart to the Terran banshee and (if it's in starcraft 2) the Zerg guardian. Only, instead of being incapable of attacking air units, it's simply more vulnerable to aerial attack.

[Remy]

I can't say I can that I fully agree that the "shield" in question is the generic Protoss shield.  Even visually, there is a special shield graphic against incoming GTA attacks.

There is no other instance where there is something similar other than the immortal's hardened shield.  Not only that, Protoss taking damage has been represented graphically in the exact same way for everything else we've seen so far, whether it's buildings, units, the Mothershipe, all the same.  Even immortals taking hits from reaper pistols is the same.

In the leaked vid, in the tempest section, there is one tempest that falls to two missile turrets.  For the first 16 hits, you can see the anti-ground shield activating, but not after that.  It takes 7 more unshielded hits and falls from an approximate total of 23 missile turret hits.  By SC1 stats, turrets deal 20 explosive damage per hit, I fail to see why they would make turrets weaker in SC2.

Based on that, if the anti-ground shield was merely generic Protoss shield, and the first 16 hits was what it was, then that's approximately 320 shield and 140 HP for a tempest.  Whether the shield is "Protoss shield" or not, that's 460 total life pool we're looking at for a tempest, I find that unlikely.

In the leaked vid, twilight archon section, you can also see that a tempest falls to a single yamato, as well as another falling to 7 normal BC attacks.  The yamato is a special ability and is spell damage, it is unlikely that yamato does close to 500 damage.  It is possible to argue that even though it's a spell, it was considered an air attack, although I find it unlikely.

Whichever the case, the 7 BC shots killing a tempest does not support the Protoss shield theory.  For it to be Protoss shield, the tempest can not have more than 140 HP(7 missile turret shots worth of HP to be exact).  BCs did 25 damage in SC1, and based on what I've seen in videos and counting hits, I would say they do about the same in SC2.  Based on all this, if it was Protoss shield and BC was hitting raw HP, the tempest should've fell in 6 hits not 7.  6 hits would be 150 HP, there shouldn't have been a 7th hit.

I believe the "shield" to be a damage reduction shield similar to that of the immortal's hardened shield, only in tempest's case it is universal against GTA attacks.  It makes all around better sense that way.

My personal belief is that each tempest will have less than 200 total HP but will greatly reduce incoming GTA attacks for a fixed amount of damage.  I also think that the tempest will be more accessible compared to SC1 carriers, such as a lower mineral/gas cost.

[GuiMontag]

hmm, im getin abit confused about what your trying to say remy,
Blizzard has said that the tempest will have a 'hard' sheild against GTA only. The tempest has no sheild at all to any air attacks.
that would make the tempests life pool 140HP to all air attacks and around 460 to GTA
all those numbers for damage have probably been changed for sc2

[Remy]

Has the "hardend shield" vs ground been confirmed by Blizzard? I believe you are mistaken and the wording is only "shield." Which in turn could be either, because it's very vague wording.

My point is there has never been a damage reducing shield for any Protoss unit like the immortal's hardened shield. The generic Protoss shield is just a regenerable portion of HP universal to all Protoss unit and buildings that also never reduce damage.

I believe the graphical shield shown against GTA attacks made up of hexagons to be a type of hardened shield much like the immortal's as opposed to being just the generic Protoss shield like Armadeo suggests. In which case, a carrier has never had such a thing. There are also other differences.

On another note, if I've never said this in this thread, "shuriken" is the stupidest name ever. It is super lame.

[burkid]

so remy... to sum that all up, tempests must have low health and either very high shields for ground only or a hardened ground shield, while having no shield vs air and is probably cheaper than the SC1 carrier.

[Remy]

Yes, those are my thoughts, more or less.  Which takes me back to my point of why don't they emphasize its strength vs ground instead?  If it is indeed extra damage reduction vs GTA attacks, carriers never had that for GTA or ATA anyway.

Oh, and that the name SHURIKEN is super gay.

Suriken(手裏劍) litterally means "sword in hand," it's the name of what's commonly referred to as "ninja star."  But it isn't limited to that, it's generally any small concealed weapon primarily used for catching opponents off guard(think dirty underhanded fighting) mainly by means of throwing.  This could include darts, needles, just about any small bladed/sharp weapon.

On a side note, it does not have the litteral meaning of "hand hidden blade" like the wikipedia entry suggests.  Ri(裏) litterally means inside, or within, in does not mean hidden.  You can make the connection that since it's inside something, it could be considered as concealed, then make another leap to go from concealed to hidden, but it does not mean so litterally.

Anyway, Shuriken is a stupid ass name for the interceptor.

[burkid]

ah, i see what you're saying, they dont advertise its effectiveness vs ground units, like how they advertise warp rays effectiveness to large units and buildings, or something like that.

slightly off-topic, but this made me think of vikings as an effective counter to tempests, since they can switch to air form to dodge the potentially hardened (otherwise just strong) ground shield of tempests.

[kehmdaddy]

The real question is why oh why is the Tempest absolutely tiny! They're peewees! Runts! I don't care if Blizzard dubbed the Warp Rays the new capital ships; they aren't! The Tempest should still hold that role, they're the new Carriers, after all. Plus, the Warp Rays have flimsy health and shields... they should not be the giants of the sky. I will be really torn if they decide to give us miniature blue Carriers with ninja stars. I loveeee Carriers... but these are just wimpy as hell. Cool name, good model, just awful size...

[burkid]

its because the cheap-ass dark templar contractors stripped the original carrier blueprints of everything to make them cheaper. reduced size, removed air shield, decreased health, even took guns off interceptors.

[PhantomFF]

Personally I'm going to reserve judgement on the tempest for a while, to see what role it fills for itself...

Right now it seems that having a varied protoss air force even in small numbers basicaly means you can assault any position. Phoenix guards the tempests, tempests take out the anti-air defense around a base...warp rays blow up everything big. Basically there is no real need for tempests to have anti-air defense if they are used well, so I can see why the Dark Templar thought to strip em down and make them cheeper.

[AdmiralAckbar]

I agree with Remy's synopsis on the tempest shields. It would be suprising if the tempest didnt have the standard health-shield. The ground attack sheild will in all likeliness be like the immortals hardend shield.
I also dont like the name suriken for interceptors its japanese, shouldnt it be related to latin like most other protoss names. The melee attack wont be that bad though it will keep the screen from getting to busy with special effects and the framerate down.

[Remy]

^ & ^^ I agree with both of you.

^^ The Protoss air fleet as a whole appears to be amazingly complete and self sufficient. Perhaps that is one of the things that Blizzard is emphasizing for the Protoss in SC2, to have the strongest and most balanced air fleet.

^ The Suriken name being Japanese doesn't fit the Tempest and Protoss as you say AdmiralAckbar. But not just that, I think it's out of place being in the SC universe in the first place.

We'll have to see about how the tempest shield turns out.

Oh btw, AdmiralAckbar if I never welcomed you in another thread yet, welcome to the forums.