Shields

[Fenix]

The new Protoss shields are rather specialized, from the Tempest's GTA shields only, and the Immortal's shields only activating against siege weaponry.

I think it sucks. Why would the Protoss (Say they;re a living entity for now) make such a lame decision to do that? I mean, in the Tempest's case, they have no excuse not to put both types.


What say ye?

[paragon]

Clearly some Aldaris-like bureaucrat was in charge of the Tempest. Or lowest bid contractor.

[Fenix]

Stupid penny-pinching-Protoss..... >:(

[SirBaron]

The Immortal's shield functions identically like the Defensive Matrix, albeit only against siege attacks. It reduces (not absorbs) a number of damage done and then eventually expires.

Example:
Siege Tank does 85 damage vs Immortal.
Immortal's Hardened Shield reduces damage taken by 70. 15 Damage taken.

Like the Defensive matrix, except it works for the shield and not the HP.

Then with Reaper:
Reaper does 15 damage vs Immortal.
Immortal's Hardened Shield does not activate. 15 damage taken.

Or something in that fashion.

[Fenix]

Ya, but that's it's only shield. That's where I have the issue.

[SirBaron]

Ya, but that's it's only shield. That's where I have the issue.

Ok let's see if i got it right. Feelin a tad bit confused here.

Is the issue:
That the shield will ONLY protect against siege attacks? (meaning if the Immortal's shields won't activate against non-siege even with 100% shield?)

or

Something completely different?

[Fenix]

Is the issue:
That the shield will ONLY protect against siege attacks? (meaning if the Immortal's shields won't activate against non-siege even with 100% shield?)


That's it. What's the point of even having shields then? They're too specialized.

[NotDeadYet]

Actually the Immortal does have a shield which protects against weak attacks. If you watch the demo, when the Reapers attack, a sheild does activate around the Immortals. This means that their shield is just like every other Protoss units', except they also have their super-Defensive Matrix to protect against powerful attacks. The narrator says "Their small pistols don't activate the hardened shields of the Immortals." He says nothing about normal shields.

[SirBaron]

Is the issue:
That the shield will ONLY protect against siege attacks? (meaning if the Immortal's shields won't activate against non-siege even with 100% shield?)

That's it. What's the point of even having shields then? They're too specialized.

Ok then i will scold myself for not specifying myself proper.

What i said, essentially, was that the Hardened Shield reduces siege-damage done to the normal shield. The Hardened Shield isn't even a shield, it's just an attribute that reduces damage taken from siege-attacks (speculation).

Siege Tank Example:
The Immortal has 100 shield.
Siege Tank attacks and does 85 damage.
The Hardened Shield reduces damage taken by 70.
Immortal loses 15 shield.
Immortal has 85 shield remaining.

Reaper Example:
The Immortal has 100 shield.
Reaper attacks and does 18 damage.
The Hardened Shield does not reduce any damage.
Immortal loses 18* shield.
Immortal has 82 shield remaining.

[MarJoe]

what are the difference between the shield in the original star craft and the new star craft? what unit(s) have the highest shield and highest damage? for the terran, what new/old unit(s) has the highest damage and defense? for the zerg, what is the new/old unit(s) that has a high damage and high armor?

[SirBaron]

1:what are the difference between the shield in the original star craft and the new star craft?
2:what unit(s) have the highest shield and highest damage?
3:for the terran, what new/old unit(s) has the highest damage and defense?
4:for the zerg, what is the new/old unit(s) that has a high damage and high armor?

1:Well, the shields function just the same for all Protoss except the Immortal which is partially impervious to siege-damage (from Siege Tanks/Reavers etc).
2: I'd guess the Tempest have the highest overall damage per second, and possibly highest shield, although at the moment they are extremely vulnerable against air as it would seem their shields only function against ground.
3: As the Battlecruiser are part of the new Terran arsenal, i'd guess it has the highest defense/Hp and possibly highest attack for a mobile unit (the siege tank having highest while in immobile siege mode). This is all subject to change.
4: We have not seen enough Zerg units to determine their strongest unit, although it could be Ultralisk if blizzard chose to implement them into the new game.

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

[[LightMare]]

dude, both shields are great! it makes a diversity, so it makes you have to position your units well in a battle, so the harder shield is facing the units that activate it

[paragon]

Do zerg even have siege units? Actually Guardian would count for that I guess if that is still in SC2. So thats like 1 unit per race... not much of a special shield. And I thought that Immortals didn't attack air anyways so no competent player would attack Immortals with a guardian anyways.

[MyWifeforauir]

if immortals didn'r attack air it would be a poor replacement of the dragoons

[PowerkickasS]

most definitely......

[FlyingTiger]

if immortals didn'r attack air it would be a poor replacement of the dragoons


yea i hope they attack air, but maybe if they don't, they are promoting more of an immortal/stalker combo which I hope not.

I think both the immortal and tempest have techincally two shields... a normal and a specialized one. The tempest should have a normal shield protecting from air regardless and same to the immortals. The immortals would prolly be protected from siege tanks and the yamato gun possibly.

[MrFrancko]

It could come down to the protoss wanting to specialize their shields in order to focus their energy. If they had a shield on all the time it would be weaker than if they focus their energy at the opportune times.

[capthavic]

Is the issue:
That the shield will ONLY protect against siege attacks? (meaning if the Immortal's shields won't activate against non-siege even with 100% shield?)


That's it. What's the point of even having shields then? They're too specialized.


They still have normal shields they just don't get that extra bonus against non-siege attacks. It's all about balance and making sure every unit has a counter.

[Itsmyship]

Hmmm....I wonder how much dmg you need to make to activate the specialized shields. Would say...a zealot regular attack, which is 16, activate its shields? Or would it have to be something like...a Battlecruiser regular attack, 25, be needed to activate it? Or does it have to be an immense amount of dmg to activate it, like Siege Mode or Yamato?

[Major Willy]

Stalkers are gonna be great for harassing Air.

Anyways the Tempest ground shields are rather retarded.
Anti-air flying units were how you got them.
Not mass Goliaths VS Carriers.

[LoserInLosing]

Most likely theres TWO shields, the shield in sc1 *main base shield* and the special shield *reduces damage from siege or extreme high damage units*. So tempests have their own shield (for example, 150 shield 150 hp) and a special shield ruducing, say like 50percent of all ground attacks.

[paragon]

Not for tempests. When the Battlecruisers attacked them no shield activated. One was zapped by a Yamato in one hit and the other was destroyed by 6 or 7 Battlecruiser hits.

[Itsmyship]

Dude...i could not understand anything you just said, learn to spell and use proper grammar :powerdown:

[Malicus]

I am willing to bet that there are different types of damage in SC2, much like in the original SC and in WC3. Light damage, medium damage, heavy damage, siege damage, spell damage. Most likely the Immortal Shields only activate when struck with a weapon that uses Siege or Heavy damage type hits, prolly has nothing to do with the actual damage done by the unit. This is all speculation of course, but makes the most sense to me.

If you watch the animations for the Immortals as well, they are capable of aiming their turrets directly upwards, giving belief that they are indeed capable of firing at air units. Wouldnt make any sense if they couldent.

[MrFrancko]

Having separate types of damage would make sense. Don't see why not.

[zeratul11]

Dude...i could not understand anything you just said, learn to spell and use proper grammar :powerdown:


hey please be understandable. i started like that too, well im not saying i have improved.
anyway some guys here are not good in english (like me) and we are doing our best just to fit in. obviously we're not americans, british etc. and we don't study english that much so please do understand. peace thanks.

marines dont shoot upwards (point their guns up) when firing at air units. im not sure, but as seen in the demo, they are not aiming at the sky when shooting air units. now that sucks. while all other units, you can obviously see that they are shooting up or down (laser animations). am i right?

the shield type of protoss are for countering purposes so there is no need to get all shield type to a certain type of unit maybe because protoss will have a hard time creating one and will waste more energy (in real life protoss universe)

[paragon]

Wouldn't be that hard to make another animation for attacking air units for marines then just play that animation when the target is an air unit. Don't know why they wouldn't do it.

[SirBaron]

I certainly hope they stop the specialized shields with the Immortal and Tempest cause if every unit had a special shield to counter one specific unit that would just require way too much need for micro.

[paragon]

Or rather it would require that you get the specific counters for each unit and then if your opponent changes units, yours becomes pretty useless because it can only counter that one unit.

[capthavic]

Meh, the way I see it SC is just as much fantasy as say Warcraft or any game that isn't trying to be hyper realistic. It's fine for them to use their artistic license to do things that may not be realistic. The problem with making any game (especially a sequel to a huge game like SC) is that there is no way to please everyone and meet their high expectations.

As long as SC2 looks and plays great I'm not going to nitpick. I'm just glad it's coming out.

[SirBaron]

Or rather it would require that you get the specific counters for each unit and then if your opponent changes units, yours becomes pretty useless because it can only counter that one unit.

Um that's what i meant, i just used the wrong words. Thanks. :P

[capthavic]

Those specialty shields don't make them invincible againt specific attacks it just reduces the damage taken from them. And you should always have a balanced attack force anyway.

[paragon]

Where some of your units may or may not suddenly become mostly useless/easy to destroy.

[capthavic]

Ok can you give an example?

[paragon]

you have tempests and they have air --> tempest is ****ed
you have immortals and they have no siege tanks/heavy hitting units --> super shield is useless, immortal is ****ed

[capthavic]

Why would you only have tempest? Solution: Have some phoenix with them.
Why would you have only immortals? Solution: Have some zealots, etc. with them.

Only a total noob uses groups of just one unit type.

[paragon]

You clearly are not paying attention to what I wrote.

Where some of your units may or may not suddenly become mostly useless/easy to destroy.
SOME
SOME
SOME
If you have tempests and they have air, your tempests will get ****ed. Focus fire tempests = no more tempests.
If they have pretty much any unit except the heavy damage ones, your immortals are weak and easily destroyed. The immortals are good for one thing and their usefulness goes to zero when your enemy mixes their heavy damage units with other units. Which basically everyone does anyways.

[capthavic]

And if you have air with the tempest they can destroy the enemy air (ex phoenix overload) before they do too much damage.

And while it's unknown how useful they may be otherwise, Immortals are great if the enemy is dug in with seige tanks for example. They may be lost in the process but the immortals will be able to take out most (if not all) of them and make an opening for the main attack force.

Maybe you think these new units are stupid but we don't know the whole picture let alone played it yet. Who knows you might actually like them :D

Everything has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. It's how you manage them that matters.

[paragon]

What if the dug in tanks are surrounded by reapers? The reapers will rip apart the immortals before the tanks can be destroyed.

As for tempests, lure away the phoenixes or get them to overload and run away then come back for the tempests or both. Air slaughters tempests because of their specialized shield.

[capthavic]

You saw how fast those immortals took out the siega tanks and how it still took all those reapers a while to wear down their normal shields. Besides just have some zealots charge in and keep the reapers busy while the immortals focus on the tanks.

And thats where tactics come in. You keep the phoenix close and stagger overloads so that not all of them are offline at the same time. Simple.

"Everything in Starcraft is about choices you make as a player. It's not about making the one right unit or the one right structure." Dustin Browder, Lead Designer

[coalescence]

how it still took all those reapers a while to wear down their normal shields.

A while? Those Immortals got ass whooped in no time.

[paragon]

Or you just use air to take out the tanks and reapers. If reapers can hit air i'm sure they aren't that good against it. And tanks can't hit air. Your loses - none.
Or use phase prisms to drop zealots right on top of the tanks so they have to un-siege to attack you.

The problem with immortals is that their only function is much easier served by other unit combinations.

[PowerkickasS]

how it still took all those reapers a while to wear down their normal shields.

A while? Those Immortals got ass whooped in no time.

but there were heaps of reapers, and still quite a few died from the immortals.
im sure ive posted this message before....

[capthavic]

Yes a while. Even with a dozen or more reapers it still took 10-12 seconds to take down all of those immortals. And in a normal battle you would have other units with them (ex zealots) that can take those reapers out in half that time.

To Paragon: And if they have anti air units or missle turrets too? You might be able to damage thier tanks but not destroy before they get blown out of the sky. Same for phase prisms. Even if you could get one to survive long enough to get close enough and deploy, the reapers and maybe even tanks (depending on number and how spaced out they are) would slaughter your units before they phased in or could get more than 1-2 attacks in if its a normal drop.

Really this is a pointless arugment because it's all theory and we don't know enough about the other two races to properly discuss tactics.

[coalescence]

but there were heaps of reapers, and still quite a few died from the immortals.
im sure ive posted this message before....


So? Probably cheapo infantry with low hp (cheap = you can make alot, but probably wouldnt have to tell you) and the Immortal has huge hp+shield and is probably quite expensive.
Also, about a quarter of the reapers got raped? Quarter of the Immortals got killed by the siege tanks.

[PowerkickasS]

it didnt look like an absolute counter imo.....
infact when i first saw that bit, what went through my mind at that spot was:
"the hell? they're saying these infantry are absolutely superb at countering the likes of the immortal but there are so many....and they're still getting slightly pwned....by weakened immortals....so much for a convincing example....."

[paragon]

To Paragon: And if they have anti air units or missle turrets too? You might be able to damage thier tanks but not destroy before they get blown out of the sky. Same for phase prisms. Even if you could get one to survive long enough to get close enough and deploy, the reapers and maybe even tanks (depending on number and how spaced out they are) would slaughter your units before they phased in or could get more than 1-2 attacks in if its a normal drop.

Phase prisms also act as regular dropships and carry units that are instantly deployed.
Add in some dark templar if they dont have a detector.
Add in reavers to deal some heavy splash damage.

[PrivateJoker]

We are seeing some more unusual Protoss shield types in SCII. In SC original, all shield types are IDENTICAL. Whereas we are seeing the Immortals with high intensity shields, and the Tempests with ground defense only shields (making it vulnerable to all air attacks). I think that the balancing of each unit type can be more fine tuned this way, but its also concerning that certain units might be excessively weaker than the units that counter them. (I personally liked Terran balance the most, as different specialized units were significantly, but not radically overpowering over the units they counter.

[capthavic]

To Paragon: And if they have anti air units or missle turrets too? You might be able to damage thier tanks but not destroy before they get blown out of the sky. Same for phase prisms. Even if you could get one to survive long enough to get close enough and deploy, the reapers and maybe even tanks (depending on number and how spaced out they are) would slaughter your units before they phased in or could get more than 1-2 attacks in if its a normal drop.

Phase prisms also act as regular dropships and carry units that are instantly deployed.
Add in some dark templar if they dont have a detector.
Add in reavers to deal some heavy splash damage.


I know that, that is why I said "if its a normal drop". And neither of those units are any good if they get shot down before they can unload.

This is all just what if's and assumptions. Blizzard is one of (if not) the best at balancing sides. They would't put something in there if it wasn't useful. Everything is subject to change so just relax and have some faith.

[paragon]

use the high templar to put those barriers around them.

[PowerkickasS]

you fools and your stupid shields!
only real men/protoss would only need muscles! and strong bones!

[PrivateJoker]

You could use the new high templar barriers to trap melee units in an area, and then Stalker Teleport right next to the barrier to shoot them from safety. Alot of micro but i could see something like this being deadly.

[PrivateJoker]

you fools and your stupid shields!
only real men/protoss would only need muscles! and strong bones!


The Terran War Hookers say; "Drink milk, it builds strong bones, powerful Kahala, and enhances warpable virility!"

[Major Willy]

Oh god return of the Terran Hookers.

[PowerkickasS]

lolololololololololololololol

[FlyingTiger]

geez not again

I guess terran hooker ftw!

[GuiMontag]

i dont know why some of you keep *****ing about the new sheilds, how can adding a direct counter to siege tanks on top of normal sheilds be a bad thing for the protoss?
also everyone that says tempest cannot attack air has no idea what they are talking about, becuase blizzard never said that they cannot attack air, they just said that their sheild does not activate against air. defence and offence are completely different.
Whats with all the dodgy what if situations, half the stuff that has been mentioned could be said for half the units in sc1.

[paragon]

Well most of my complaints are directed towards the tempests complete lack of an anti-air shield as they get raped by air.

[for-glory]

i think having the rock paper style of counters in terms of sheilds doesnt turn starcraft into warcraft nor does it somehow not make sense because logically it wouldnt work that way. I highly doubt with the amount of polish blizzard puts into their games that it will effect the awesomeness that is starcraft. so I welcome the new additions (the shields) to the specific 'toss units

[paragon]

I just don't see myself getting tempests. But, maybe i'm wrong and they are good support units for something.

[[LightMare]]

I just don't see myself getting tempests. But, maybe i'm wrong and they are good support units for something.

i think they are. they are the mind and soul of the carrier, but the body is quite a bit weaker

[paragon]

I just don't see myself getting tempests. But, maybe i'm wrong and they are good support units for something.

i think they are. they are the mind and soul of the carrier, but the body is quite a bit weaker

I didn't get carriers either. Far to high on the tech tree for the games I played.

[[LightMare]]

my games usually last a while depending on how many players. when i was protoss, i usually got carriers every game, but they were sometimes not as useful in some situations. they are great support, but not so great when you are only using them.

[paragon]

The good thing about starcraft is nothing is really great when you are just using them.

[Itsmyship]

Hmmmm, so now im intrigued. For airforce, what is best for the air for Protoss? And if there is no best, in which situations would the different fighters be useful for?

[paragon]

Airforce? who needs that?
Even on islands, a few corsairs for Disruption web and some AA then shuttles for drops.