The Average Population of the Universe is Zero

[Fenix]

Here's why.

The Universe, by definition, is infinite, right? Thusly, there is an infinite amount of worlds. However, not all worlds have life. Therefore, there is a finite amount of life in the Universe. And when you divide anything finite by infinity, the answer is so infinitesimally small, the answer is basically Zero.


Cue metaphysical conversation.

[hillzagold]

uh, no. the universe is expanding, meaning that it's finite

i win

[JBL]

everything you said is very logical if Universe = Infinite

but why does Universe = Infinite?

[paragon]

The Universe, by definition, is infinite, right?

No, actually.

[JBL]

The Universe, by definition, is infinite, right?

No, actually.


kk you are answering my question.

[paragon]

really hillzagold answered it but yeah i didn't notice his post cause i usually just press past the "there are new posts" thing

[Fenix]

*Ahem*

By definition.

u·ni·verse (yōō'nə-vûrs')
n.

1. All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.

(Emphasis added)

Items in the Universe are expanding, Hillzagold. Taking it to it's Latin roots, it means everything. Therefore, infinite.

[burkid]

everything might have a limit

[[LightMare]]

uh, no. the universe is expanding, meaning that it's finite

i win

wrong. it's not expanding. it was expanding 1/16th of a nanosecond after the big bang. the universe is infinite. there are no walls blocking it. no limits

everything might have a limit

wrong also

[burkid]

uh, no. the universe is expanding, meaning that it's finite

i win

wrong. it's not expanding. it was expanding 1/16th of a nanosecond after the big bang. the universe is infinite. there are no walls blocking it. no limits

everything might have a limit

wrong also



it was expanding, and still is. you said that there are no limits, if thats the case, how would it slow to a stop?

[[LightMare]]

how could it still eb expanding. ever taken the most powerful microscope and looked into the distance? did you see a big wall? a barrier of some sorts. what proof do you have that is it "expanding"?

[Fenix]

Ok. Lemme ask something. After the BB, where did it expand to? There was an empty void. Whatever spewed out from the BB was already in the 'Verse.

[[LightMare]]

it didn't spew, it exploded out. the empty void now known as 'Verse, got filled with all the matter and energy concentrated in something smaller than a marble 10 the power of negative 10.

[Fenix]

Ya, that's what I'm saying. The Universe is infinite. So, we don't exist.

[burkid]

how could it still eb expanding. ever taken the most powerful microscope and looked into the distance? did you see a big wall? a barrier of some sorts. what proof do you have that is it "expanding"?

you're saying its not expanding and that there is no barrier? how could it stop expanding without something to stop it? besides, i wouldnt use a microscope to look into space.

[burkid]

Ya, that's what I'm saying. The Universe is infinite. So, we don't exist.

yet we do.

[Fenix]

Well, I could give you a huge metaphysical, Zen, definition saying we don't, but I won't.

[[LightMare]]

telescope, microscope, 5 letters different and they both look at things closer. the universe has been around since the BB for 13.7 billion years. (13 700 000 000). The BB expanded many times faster than the speed of light. The speed of light is nearly 1 billion meters per second (299.7...). There are 31 556 926 seconds in a year. 31 556 926 x 13 700 000 000 x 1 000 000 000= something incredible ()

[paragon]

blah blah blah. I hate philosophy. one of my majors is in it, I know how dumb it is.
Anyways, this is about as dumb as the freedom/determinism argument
Determinists say that everything is determined therefore everything that happens is the only thing that could happen and nothing else then what did happen could have happened.
Indeterminists say that nothing is determined and there are infinite things that could happen and that things happen because of free will.
Nobody can prove either of these. This debate has been going on for centuries without end. There has been no headway made in either side and yet somehow these sad sad people make a sad sad living teaching this ****.

[JBL]

Nobody can prove either of these.

then it doesn't worth to debate on such a thing.

why would you waste time to debate on something you can't prove who's right?

I do like philosophy when it's applied on people.. i do like anthropology..

but in cases like what you stated, i totally agree with you.

[[LightMare]]

this ain't philosophy. it's pure-breed hypothetical science

[paragon]

this ain't philosophy. it's pure-breed hypothetical science

Thats also called philosophy buddy.

[thitian]

why wouldnt you :o
everyone whos a little bit interested in astronomy knows the universe is expanding ever since it came into existance
this has been proven a 1000 times by einstein and all the genious persons after him
the changing of distances between several galaxies is measured by the speed of light thats nothing new
humans actually almost know exactly where the universe came into existance through big bang...
(well except of some creationists :sleeping:)

anyways universe insnt infinitive since its expanding... and average life in universe isnt 0 but 0,000...1
which makes a difference for mathematicians :-X

also theres alot of scientist saying the expansion of the universe is slowing down more and more ever since its existing and the same force spreading the universe into the "nothing" behind it will reverse this process in "some years" ::) just like a sinus curve~

[FlyingTiger]

ugh i hate this stuff lol. now lets talk about the space-time continuum and explode our minds.

haha maybe our understanding of physics and mathematics cannot explain what the universe is capable of and trying to understand it is futile.

[Light]

ehem, universe is considered infinite due to the gravitational curves of space-time viz., if u travel straight thru space for an immense long time at a massive speed, u would eventually get back to the place you started-infinite, in a way, and at the same time finite, as the big bang is still expanding-theres a limit to how far its got-finite, so unless u travel, its finite. basiclly, those who here say its finite and those who says its infinite are all correct-hence the arguing.

dont try to mess about physics with me.

[paragon]

You can't travel in a straight line and get back to where you were. I'm not talking some walking straight in 2 dimensions but not the third. I'm talking all three dimensions. If you are going exactly straight in all three dimensions you will never get back to where you were.

Like people "walk in straight lines" on earth but if you could "walk in a straight line" all the way around the earth, you would obviously get back to where you were. However, the line is not actually straight because you are curving on the Z axis.

[[LightMare]]

everyone whos a little bit interested in astronomy knows the universe is expanding ever since it came into existance
wrong. have you read my mathematical equation? have you read all the arguments. still expanding into what? it's been there and beyond. the Universe (Uni=everything) is infinite.

[PowerkickasS]

omg.....
so this is what happens when the religion thread is locked....
transition from philosophy to science =/

lol@hilzagold's "i win" lol

EDIT: P.S: i dont suggest you guys fight elementt. he's in one of those states where he truely believes he knows what he's talking about and will not sheer one bit of open-mind for accepting defeat :P. everyone has a state like this so yeah please should not tamper with the power of desperate human motivation (or whatever you call it lol). if you try proving him wrong you're not gonna get anything beneficial out of it :P unless you're a prick of course xD

[Light]

the gravity curves the ''path'' of which u travel, same as gravity curves the universe shut, like a big ball, and u, if u travel straight, will be traveling in circles,. everything is bended like that by gravity, light etc. im talking about travlelling thru universe at an impossible speed for near infinity of time. and otherwise, in 2d you could travel straight, but not in 3d.

elemett, wrong! have u read my first post??!!!

edit: elementt, i read ur ''mathematical equation'' and wtf NOTHING CAN TRAVEL FASTER THAN LIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

edit2: im not imagining this stuff up like the rest of u, this is real, based on einsteins theories

edit3: tnx for making me ****ing fanatical! im ****ing pissed off!

[Nikzad]

you are all WRONG

out of the options of:
a) The universe is infinite.
or
b) The universe is finite.

The answer was:

Secret option letter
c) there is no universe, the only things that exist are the Earth and the Sun, and the four elements, wind water, fire, and earth, and the sun revolves around the earth

[PowerkickasS]

dude.....YOU DARE DENY SATURN!? BUUURRRNNNN. i mean FREEEEEEEZZEEEE

[paragon]

you are all WRONG

out of the options of:
a) The universe is infinite.
or
b) The universe is finite.

The answer was:

Secret option letter
c) there is no universe, the only things that exist are the Earth and the Sun, and the four elements, wind water, fire, and earth, and the sun revolves around the earth

What are you from the ancient world?

[Nikzad]

no, I just thought I'd try to clear the air after reading those 28 posts before mine

made my head spin ???

[PrivateJoker]

my favorite theory is that the universe is an infinite fractal. Every atom contains another universe, and our universe may be some atomic structure in another universe, and this goes on for infinity. :powerup:

[paragon]

no, I just thought I'd try to clear the air after reading those 28 posts before mine

made my head spin ???

Just remember that nobody can definitively prove either one and you should be fine.

[PowerkickasS]

my favorite theory is that the universe is an infinite fractal. Every atom contains another universe, and our universe may be some atomic structure in another universe, and this goes on for infinity. :powerup:

yeah i believe that too.....up until when Men In Black finishes xD

[Nikzad]

yeah, its something that I'm not going to get into because I know I'll be compelled to throw my 2 cents in if I do and just fuel the fire

[Fenix]

my favorite theory is that the universe is an infinite fractal. Every atom contains another universe, and our universe may be some atomic structure in another universe, and this goes on for infinity. :powerup:


So, a fan of the Splinter Theory? Nice, but a tad out of place. Maybe I should start another thread about that.

[SirBaron]

This thread is fawkin confusing. I am going to make a few guesses here that really has no scientific backup:
Infinite 'Verse = No barriers.
Finite 'Verse = Barriers.

Yet:
Infinite 'Verse = No matter how much you twist it, every frickin box needs to have walls, UNLESS you ended up in the universe again after travelling away from it (think Neo in the Train Station in Matrix Revolutions, when he's trying to exit through the subway tunnels) which really doesn't prove that the box has no walls since the "endlessness" isn't really endless but simply leads back to square 1 when you exit square 99 (i.e a circle... though a circle may count for as endless/infinite yet infinite refers to always travelling a line that never ends, not travelling a line that just loops around itself... kind of).

Finite 'Verse = A box has walls, but there cannot be nothing outside the box. Even if barriers prevented us from leaving the universe, there has to be SOMETHING beyond those barriers, otherwise it would be pointless for the barriers to exist (since barriers serve to keep us apart from something, not keep us apart from nothing). Nothingness, or "void" if you will, may be absolutely nothing (completely devoid of particles, unlike space which has particles very far apart from eachother) but it is still something if the box lies in the void. Something that is nothing does not exist at all and thus there cannot be nothing that is something. Or something like that.

Remember i have no scientific backup to make my ramblings valid, it's just a POV from the less complicated, liberal angle.

[Light]

ehem, universe is considered infinite due to the gravitational curves of space-time viz., if u travel straight thru space for an immense long time at a massive speed, u would eventually get back to the place you started-infinite, in a way, and at the same time finite, as the big bang is still expanding-theres a limit to how far its got-finite, so unless u travel, its finite. basiclly, those who here say its finite and those who says its infinite are all correct-hence the arguing.

u got the second part right, but not the first 1. gravity, ''curves'' (bends) everything, as everything is affected by gravity, including space-time. as einstein proved, gravity completely curves the whole universe, like a ball. if u would travel, straight, very fast, the gravity will curve your path (while u will still think you are going straight) according to the curve of the fabric of space-time, and since it curves the whole universe like a ball, u will get back where u started. that is just that universe is not infinite, but its impossible to reach the end, no matter how fast and how long, u will just get back to where u were and be travelling in circles. its hard to explain, i wish i could draw u a picture, but it has complete scientific backup.

[10-Neon]

I find it hilarious that you guys are arguing over a quote (http://matt.injustice.net.nz/guide/book2/b2c20.php) from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (actually the second book, my personal favorite, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe). It's a great book, it's like my personal Bible, but, like the Bible, you can't take everything in it seriously!

Anyway, as I understand it, there is a finite amount of energy and matter in the universe, but the distance between it all is expanding to infinity, so if you are taking into account the amount of space between everything at the point of infinity, then yes, the population is exactly zero, but that conclusion can only be reached in a hypothetical, mathematical situation, since you can't actually go to infinity. In reality, when taking the population of something, you are taking the population out of everything that can be populated, in this case, just the matter and energy. Out of that, the amount of life, to non-life is staggeringly small, close to zero in its own regard, but not actually at zero.

[[LightMare]]

telescope, microscope, 5 letters different and they both look at things closer. the universe has been around since the BB for 13.7 billion years. (13 700 000 000). The BB expanded many times faster than the speed of light. The speed of light is nearly 1 billion meters per second (299.7...). There are 31 556 926 seconds in a year. (31 556 926 x 13 700 000 000) x 1 000 000 000= something incredible

complete that calculation, you'll get your answer.

[Fenix]

I find it hilarious that you guys are arguing over a quote (http://matt.injustice.net.nz/guide/book2/b2c20.php) from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (actually the second book, my personal favorite, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe). It's a great book, it's like my personal Bible, but, like the Bible, you can't take everything in it seriously!


Finally, someone gets it.

[paragon]

Anyone who thinks that the average population is zero is dumb.

[Fenix]

Anyone who argues a philosophical debate with absolutely no evidence for either side is dumb.

[burkid]

Anyone who argues a philosophical debate with absolutely no evidence for either side is dumb.

i think that would qualify most people that responded to this post :P

[Fenix]

Pretty much, yeah.

[paragon]

Anyone who argues a philosophical debate with absolutely no evidence for either side is dumb.

i think that would qualify most people that responded to this post :P

Not me, my posts were saying that the discussion was dumb to begin with.

[burkid]

which is why i said most

[Light]

its not dumb, im telling the ****ing truth wtf and proved scientific theories, i actully know this, u are all from the middle-ages.

[Fenix]

its not dumb, im telling the f**king truth wtf and proved scientific theories, i actully know this, u are all from the middle-ages.


So. You've seen the Universe from an outside perspective?

[burkid]

its not dumb, im telling the f**king truth wtf and proved scientific theories, i actully know this, u are all from the middle-ages.

its not proved... its theorized...

[paragon]

technically it's not even theorized. Theories have been repeatedly tested to be the thing that actually happens and are widely accepted. Like the Theory of Evolution.

It's more of a hypothesis.

[burkid]

what paragon said.

[Fenix]

A theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.

Since none of us can look at the Universe from the outside, it ain't a theory, like Paragon said.

Technically, it's not even a hypothesis, as those can be tested.

[burkid]

its us trying to make order of something we honestly have no f*cking clue about

[paragon]

its us trying to make order of something we honestly have no f*cking clue about

Thats called "philosophy"

[Fenix]

My dad would say it's BS.

;D

[paragon]

I have a major in it. It is utterly pointless.

[burkid]

I have a major in it. It is utterly pointless.

and hows that working for you?

[Fenix]

It's the number one most useless degree, followed closely by a bachelors in Pysch.

[paragon]

I have a major in it. It is utterly pointless.

and hows that working for you?

Its my second major so it doesn't matter. I just did it so that I would have another major instead of 1 major, 1 minor, and a bunch of random classes.

[PowerkickasS]

It's the number one most useless degree, followed closely by a bachelors in Pysch.

psych is cool! well i know lotsa cool ppl in it :D (cool as in good people not as in gangsta -.- i mean those guys are too busy saving up their social benefits for a new rim :P)
philosophy however.....

[[LightMare]]

we've been getting way off topic. weather or not the universe is infinite (it is :P) hthe population would still be 0. according to our current knowledge.

[paragon]

no it cant be zero. It can be very close but it can't be zero because we exist.

[hillzagold]

encarta said that the universe is currently expanding, wiki will probably agree. and several end-of-the-universe theories mention how the universe is expanding. something about hawking radiation, i guess

[Fenix]

Hawking Radiation? I thought that has to do with Black Holes.

[hillzagold]

my mistake, it was dark matter...probably

[paragon]

Dark Matter is:
Unseen matter that may make up more than ninety percent of the universe. As the name implies, dark matter does not interact with light or other electromagnetic radiation, so it cannot be seen directly, but it can be detected by measuring its gravitational effects. It is believed that dark matter was instrumental in forming galaxies early in the Big Bang.

[PowerkickasS]

so fenix how did you come up with such a topic anyways? population + average + zero + universe = so random!? o_O

[[LightMare]]

ever read Angels and Demons? Anti-matter sounds like a nice conspiracy theory.

[Fenix]

so fenix how did you come up with such a topic anyways? population + average + zero + universe = so random!? o_O


Lol, 10-Neon already figured it out. It's a line from the second book in the Hitchhikers trilogy, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.



ever read Angels and Demons? Anti-matter sounds like a nice conspiracy theory.


Ha, that's one of the best books I've read, and that's saying something.

[paragon]

I thought about reading angels and demons but never did. and how does anti-matter sound like a conspiracy theory?

by the way fenix... just noticed your my hero... er a hero

[burkid]

oh, yeah fenix congrats on passing 1k posts!

[coalescence]

Infinite in what? Matter? Distance? Because the distance between matter increases, but the amount of matter is finite, look like it as a balloon that is slowly being blown up. Understand that we can never reach the 'end' of universe because we can't go faster than something thats growing at the speed of light.

Did anyone of you ever heard of the 'final crunch' theory? They say that at a moment the universe will get so loose (expanded too far, and alot of black holes in it) that it will collapse.

[burkid]

Coal! havent seen you for a while

yeah ive heard of the crunch theory too

[paragon]

i heard that there was a black hole in the center of the universe and that it was really really big.

[CodyFallsForth]

Yup, Fact. Its pulling everything toward it. In the end, if we don't screw ourselves over, its a black hole that will kill us. How nice :)

[Itsmyship]

Huh...well...the Crunch Theory is one hell of a hope buster :P

[coalescence]

i heard that there was a black hole in the center of the universe and that it was really really big.


Well, they think that there are supermassive black holes at the core of each galaxy, but their gravity isn't big enough for us to get sucked in... but if you ever look at pictures that describe their size in contrast to galaxies... damn, those things are HUUUUUUGE

[Light]

there are also megagalaxies, like a collection of galaxies, with mega black holes at the center of each. at the centre of the universe there is a black hole? could be, need to think about that one.

[paragon]

Well, they think that there are supermassive black holes at the core of each galaxy, but their gravity isn't big enough for us to get sucked in... but if you ever look at pictures that describe their size in contrast to galaxies... damn, those things are HUUUUUUGE

Yes I have seen them. Er... I've seen pictures. They also say the stars are really dense towards the center of the galaxy so it's really really bright. Like all the time.

[PowerkickasS]

think we'll find the meaning of life there!? xD

[paragon]

no but you would probably die

[coalescence]

I don't understand the whole fuss about finding the meaning of life, I find it utter bollocks and a complete waste of time. I find quantum physics even more interesting than finding the meaning of live.

[Fenix]

I don't understand the whole fuss about finding the meaning of life, I find it utter bollocks and a complete waste of time. I find quantum physics even more interesting than finding the meaning of live.


Yeah, that stuff is awesome. My fave theory is how we never touch anything just come extremely close. Quantum physics is actually a very Zen science. It state scientifically when Zen masters have been saying in a different manner for centuries.

[coalescence]

@ Fenix

"What happened to you?" -"O, I came very close to a wall"

;D

[Fenix]

Yes, the forces of opposition that prevent me from touching it broke my nose.

;)



EDIT: OMG I don't have a nose!!

I need a hug.....

[coalescence]

I need a hug.....


I can arrange a infested terran.

[PowerkickasS]

lol. david = atom vs goliath = you GG

[coalescence]

Yes, the forces of opposition that prevent me from touching it broke my nose.


Btw, when you ever get sueud for slamming someone on the nose, make sure your lawyer knows quantum physica.

[PowerkickasS]

that is so dry :P but ill pay you to try it out? xD
quantum physics > temporary insanity?

[SirBaron]

Quantum Physics is like soccer, videogames and movies - things you do when you have absolutely nothing to do ('cept those 3... 4 things then).

[Light]

ooo quantum theory is soo lovely....why does no-one here apreciate its beauty but me?

[coalescence]

ooo quantum theory is soo lovely....why does no-one here apreciate its beauty but me?


Quantum theory stands for alot of quantum based sciences except... tada... quantum physica!

Stupid comment btw, you clearly haven't read this topic.

[Nikzad]

Quantum Physics is like soccer, videogames and movies - things you do when you have absolutely nothing to do ('cept those 3... 4 things then).


are you saying that playing soccer is pointless?

[Fenix]

I need a hug.....


I can arrange a infested terran.


Live for the -
*Hugs*
SWARM

*BOOM*

[josh]

^uhh ok. that kinda match the topic.