Unit Formations?

[Tym29]

Am I the only one who wishes that Starcraft had formations when units were grouped and moving? I’d love to be able to build my own formations and macros, so I could load them into my profile on battlenet. I want my time to be spent strategizing instead of just microing. I want to be able to set up “plays” like in sports. Yeah you have to be good at microing but this is a strategy game. So why not take that further in Starcraft2.
Formations are what made all ancient armies powerful, Roman Phalanx, Spartans, etc. Formation building capabilities would also help to develop the individuality of each race.
Imagea well formed army of Protoss marching across one of the beautiful jungle worlds from SC1 then reacting to a surprise attack from some cleverly embedded zerg forces who’s hive mind allow them to work together in unison.
I’d love to hear what the rest of you think. Maybe it’s a half-baked idea, I don’t want any “Age of Empires” crap. But it could be very cool…

[Fenix]

I don’t want any “Age of Empires” crap.


Gosh friggin' dang it. That's like, the best example son.

[Ghost]

Actually, I think that the closest blizz will get to that is that "Age of Empires Crap".

[Lord David]

Actually, I think that the closest blizz will get to that is that "Age of Empires Crap".


Age of Empires isn't crap, but I would agree as to not having unit formations. Starcraft just isn't one of those games that really has any use for anything like Unit Formations, I say if you want to make a straight front defense line, then do it yourself with your marines or dragoons or whatnot, then just tell them to hold position or whatever. There's really no need for compact defensive lines and formations that don't assist you much on the battlefield. (Though a box formation would be useful in protecting a hero, though that's not really necessary)

[ImaGiNe.]

I think having macros for putting units in formation takes the fun and intrigue from the game. Whenever a player is attacked they go into some sort of "panic" mode clicking away and units and producing new ones, if there was a macro to do all this, the only action you would be doing is watching what's happening at the hot zone.

[Ghost]

Im not saying AoE is crap, I was sarcastically quoting, w/e.

Imagine marines protected by a square/circle of firebats and medics. Talk about pwnge.

[Tym29]

I was mostly thinking about how you can use melee units to protect the ranged expensive units and the like while in motion. Nearly impossible to do micro on that. I really just hate the way the units make a long "Kindergarten bathroom" line as they march into the hot zone. Not too realistic. Did someone say formations are of no use in the battlefield? I hope you are kidding.

[MrFrancko]

I could see Blizzard creating some very basic unit formations but I don't see them creating a way to make your own.

[burkid]

wow mrfranko nice job on spamming that

[Lord David]

wow mrfranko nice job on spamming that


Indeed :powerdown: to mrfranko

[burkid]

i just hope that they put some kind of formation movement, cause i hate when im zerg needing take 5 steps with lings then wait for the hydras.

[Tym29]

Wow you only have to say it once. we heard you the first time ;D
Formations are always better if you can make your own. It would make a new level of game play maybe. I'm thinking like a level editor but for units once you have enough units to complete the form you can activate the macro and have “roman tank” effect. If they were programmed in it would be just too easy. You’d have to come up with them on your own or read about one someone else made. Okay maybe that’s crazy and not SC style. We all do it in micro anyway though.

[FlyingTiger]

Wouldn't unit formation affect some of the micro a bit? I mean when you click, click, click away constantly when you micro, say zerglings, you don't want the units to space out in a neat formation. You want it to move where you click at. It's kind of hard to explain.

For example like if you played Empire Earth or even Rome: Total War, the units sometimes don't go to where you wanna click and all it wants to do is go to that exact unit formation. argh i don't even understand my explanation but I hope you get the gist lol

[burkid]

in WC3 you could turn formations on or off

[FlyingTiger]

in WC3 you could turn formations on or off


ahh yea thats right. eh but I hope SC2 differs and not have it at all. I have no reason why it shouldn't, but like it's not starcraft-like. hehe

[burkid]

like i said, as long as a can get my whole army moving at the same speed, im fine with it.

[Tym29]

Wouldn't unit formation affect some of the micro a bit? I mean when you click, click, click away constantly when you micro, say zerglings, you don't want the units to space out in a neat formation. You want it to move where you click at. It's kind of hard to explain.


No, that makes total sense. I know what you mean but you are only using a formation in a group anyway so if you select an individual it should act as an individual. You can even have sub-groups with hot key set etc. so formations wouldn’t interfere with that when done right.
An army needs to act as an army instead of a nursery school. Which is what I think of every time my army forms a line.

[[LightMare]]

Am I the only one who wishes that Starcraft had formations when units were grouped and moving? I’d love to be able to build my own formations and macros, so I could load them into my profile on battlenet. I want my time to be spent strategizing instead of just microing. I want to be able to set up “plays” like in sports. Yeah you have to be good at microing but this is a strategy game. So why not take that further in Starcraft2.
Formations are what made all ancient armies powerful, Roman Phalanx, Spartans, etc. Formation building capabilities would also help to develop the individuality of each race.
Imagea well formed army of Protoss marching across one of the beautiful jungle worlds from SC1 then reacting to a surprise attack from some cleverly embedded zerg forces who’s hive mind allow them to work together in unison.
I’d love to hear what the rest of you think. Maybe it’s a half-baked idea, I don’t want any “Age of Empires” crap. But it could be very cool…
greek phalanx. the romans stole it. and i think you would do a terrible job. we all would. we are not experts in stuff like that. blizzard is. so sit back, and enjoy, and don't make yourself think you're better than blizzard ;)

[burkid]

haha "let blizzard do its thing" is my philosophy to games.

[ProjectArc]

*Laughs* Even if there 'was' formations, it will get easily ruined after using zealots special move. I dont think there should be any. *note*: I wish that Zerg units shouldnt go like in a line. they get pwned easily by tanks

[Ghost]

THats why yoyu have to regroup b4 attacking, if you go in in a straight line your f*cked.

[ImaGiNe.]

THats why yoyu have to regroup b4 attacking, if you go in in a straight line your f*cked.

Sending units in a linear fashion is inevitable, you can not change that. :)

Formations sound like a good idea for the most part, but if implemented in StarCraft, I believe it would dilute the very essence that made StarCraft! Micro management... I have seen no other RTS game even come close to what StarCraft had to offer on that scale.

[MrFrancko]

wow mrfranko nice job on spamming that

Well damn, I kept getting an error message last night that said that it wasn't posting. I guess that it was indeed posting afterall. My apologies. I cleaned it up.

[Fenix]

I think formations are good. What people are talking about, with the Microing.....That be Warcraft son. StarCraft is about macromanagement. With the as-of-yet unlimited unit selection cap, you'll need formations in some form. Can you imagine trying to send 200 'lings followed by 200 Hydras? Pff, they'll mill around for five minutes first.

Actually, now that I think more on it.....The Terrans should most definitely have formations, as we humans do in this day and age. The Protoss should have some, but different than Terran. Maybe based one a wedge shape. The Zerg should NOT. They're a Swarm. You don't put swarms into formations.

[MrFrancko]

I think formations are good. What people are talking about, with the Microing.....That be Warcraft son. StarCraft is about macromanagement. With the as-of-yet unlimited unit selection cap, you'll need formations in some form. Can you imagine trying to send 200 'lings followed by 200 Hydras? Pff, they'll mill around for five minutes first.

Actually, now that I think more on it.....The Terrans should most definitely have formations, as we humans do in this day and age. The Protoss should have some, but different than Terran. Maybe based one a wedge shape. The Zerg should NOT. They're a Swarm. You don't put swarms into formations.

Yeah, the zerg don't need formations, that's true... Though, I don't want them going in a single file line so some sort of order would be nice.

[Tym29]

I think formations are good.  What people are talking about, with the Microing.....That be Warcraft son.  StarCraft is about macromanagement.  With the as-of-yet unlimited unit selection cap, you'll need formations in some form.  Can you imagine trying to send 200 'lings followed by 200 Hydras?  Pff, they'll mill around for five minutes first.

Actually, now that I think more on it.....The Terrans should most definitely have formations, as we humans do in this day and age.  The Protoss should have some, but different than Terran.  Maybe based one a wedge shape.  The Zerg should NOT.  They're a Swarm.  You don't put swarms into formations.


Yeah that was exactly what I was thinking about the Zerg too..but then... There is the hive mind idea so they should be completely organized too so even the swarming should be efficient but not look organized. The Lings aren’t going to be gooses stepping into battle but they aren’t going to be making lines and leaving the hydra’s behind either.
I still cant get over the thought that some kind of editable formations would be so fun. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it done. Have any of you? Were they done well?
If done right it could really help distinguish an advanced players army from a rookie’s just like in real strategic warfare. Each race would have different capabilities still. Some organization just wouldn’t be possible with zerg for instance and you could have the character of some units just not work well in formation or specific formations. (ei don’t play nice with others, don’t like being the front line.) That kinda goes with the personality of the original game where each unit would talk and talk back if you messed with them. Just thinking out loud here.

[drewcbarnard]

Making formations in SC2 would really take alot out of the true essence of it's successful history. I've said it once and I'll continue to say it: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". Leave formations for AoE and keep the tactical micro managing that the "majority" of SC fans enjoy. It truly is what makes this game special.

[Remy]

Please keep unnecessarily quoting in bulk and double posting to a minimum, thank you.

As to the main topic, I believe what is really needed is better pathing A.I.

When a large number of units are ordered to pass through chokes, units in the back shouldn't run around everywhere trying to find a different path around when the rest of their buddies are all marching in one direction.  Even if they just simply waited, it would at least be slightly more organized that how it is now.

Units being attacked from high ground going out of their minds to find a way up that isn't there was also stupid.  At the very least the units could just lean up to the wall and wait for further input from the player.

They really need to upgradee the pathing A.I. in SC2 quite a bit, it needs to be a lot more complex than how it was in SC1.  I'm hopeful that we will see some big improvements.

[Tym29]

AI has progressed worlds in the last couple of years, in all fields but especially gaming. I don’t think most people recognize how amazingly fast its coming along. For example, It took many years for Deep Blue to beat the world chess champion. And just two years to have multiple finishers of the DARPA Grand Challenge which was a lot more complex then chess. AI in a gamming environment, even though its controlled can be almost as complex as with real life robotics but the field has advanced so much and the computing power of the average Pc is so much stronger all those AI problems should be a thing of the past.
With all that said strategic skills are still going to have to be cheated on to get good game play out of a pc. We're not there yet.

[Gah345]

i had the exact same idea!!! that u could somehow set up your own formations and use them in battle
it would make it very interesting and a good formation could be the key to winning a battle, but then i realized that at the same time it kinda takes away the element of micro managing

if u have a formation where the medics r in line behind the marines, u never have to move them
if the order goes melee, short range, long range, u never have to shift your army around manually

micro managing was important in SC1 and even though AOE is not crap, their formations kinda made micromanaging not important

i say if anything they could use some specific preset army commands like "disperse" if they happen to nuke or have seige tanks with heavy area effect
and maybe one to do the opposite to pull your army together and get those stragglers back into the group
etc...

[Joneagle_X]

I don't know about creating your own formations, but some default ones would be cool.

Aren't there a couple of those in WC3?

Just have one for skirmish (units spread out to cover a large area, good for scouting, searching for units, avoiding AoE fire).

One for harden (Melee units in front, range in back).

And one for column (units form up in 3 lines and make an orderly march).

[Tym29]

sounds good to me

[DontHate]

formations might be nice. too many a times has my zealots ran up in a line or my goons went in front of my lots.

[MobileInfantry]

I'd say unit formations would be cool, but I agree that splash damage would do tons to units in a unit formation. Imagine a Thor perched on a cliff and spotting a marine formation,the person with the marines does not know the Thor is up there. I'm pretty sure ANYONE would artillery them, whether they were moving or whatever (since you'd just artillery a few feet where you obviously know there going and boom, also don't forget the delay for the barrels to get into position.) Or siege tanks, if someone was in a formation with zealots or something remember what you did in SC1 when you saw a tank blast hit your units? You'd make them separate so that the splash wouldn't kill most of them. If they had a "disperse" button, that would make it easier but eliminates the fact that you don't need skills anymore to macro your units for those situations.

[MarineCorp]

I wouldn't mind having the Unit Formation but SC1 already had no Unit Formation right? but i like to have the Unit Formation in SC2 like in Wc3

[IO]

Unit formations are something i never really found to usefull in other rts games (rise of nations for example) but in starcraft's case maybe the terrans could get afew formations and only the terrans (it would make the races more unique) plus it would make micro for terran more simple as a maybe one of these formations could be designed with m and m in mind where the medics automaticly line up behind the marines, this would make microing medics far easier.

[Wlck742]

I'd like unit formations as well, but no bonuses or anything associated with them. Just as a handy tool to keep them in order.

[BirdofPrey]

Even something basic would be nice. It seems that everyone is tired of their zerglings lining up into a wonderful death line when they could form a zergling hoard. Something as simple as being able to manually set up a formation then put on a lock where they will stay in that formation until attacking would be nice. Then you can set it up yourself. Of course a delta box and line abreast formations would be useful too.

I think they should have some basic formations but also have a way for you to design your own formations. Anything to keep all your units at the same speed when not in combat and not have then line up to die. Line abreast is the most useless formation in an RTS.

[eskudero]

i dont really like the idea of formations,but i want to see "clever" unit disposition.thats to say,when marching zealots stay at the front and stalkers at the back,etc.and maybe spread formation,but im not sure on it.i mean starcraft is not meant to be a massive-unit game like other rts,and i dont feel there is a need for formations.

[Inpox]

I have to agree with eskudero there, it would be nice if the medics like stayed in the middle with the marines not running in the front for example

[Joneagle_X]

I think we'll all be rather impressed with the improvements in AI that we're going to be seeing.

[Inpox]

Yeh. Afterall blizzard is no bunch of fools ;)

[BirdofPrey]

I have to agree with eskudero there, it would be nice if the medics like stayed in the middle with the marines not running in the front for example
Yes anything even as basice as speed matching would be nice. I want my army to within reason and ability: Stay at a uniform speed, line up by range with melee units in front and non combat support in the back, Possibly have an option to lock them in the position I set them in.

One thing I saw that I liked was the C&C 3 formation system where you just clicked and dragged allowing you to set your units in a line or a box of any dimentions. It was simple yet powerful. An addition could be to add some kind of mouse roll function to the distance between the units.

[beetlelisk]

From games i played i can say that in Warcraft 3 units were going in some kind of formation with melees on the front of direction they are going and long rangers on the back. If they were ordered to move together they matched their speed movements i think so we dont have to worry about it in SC2:)
About dispersion this thing would be usefull as hell as well aginst splash damage and for scouting as someone stated earlier.
And about user made formation even veeryy very old Red Alert had "F" hot key which caused chosen units to remeber their formation and move in it.

About races intelligence... What if some late game units like terran Vessels (now its called in other way:P) BUT Tanks also (look at Tank Image this guy is an sergeant:P)protoss High Templars, Carriers and Zerg Overlords at high speed and Lair/Hive could somehow tell from which direction enemys army should be attacked?
Or even calculate how much damage can be than by he's siege tanks ect ect?

Lol i meant his but whatever.

AND I HAVE SOLUTION IF THERE SHOULD BE SOME AUTO MICRO MODE/FORMATION IN GAME. This should be optional if this can be done or not.
Also what if one army comes to other but terrain make like that it has to come and have its flank endarged so long range units can be attacked?
In some replay from Supreme Commander i watched at You Tube i saw that units can be placed as anybody wants without regrouping it when they arrive at their destination

Please read the forum rules. Posting repeatedly after yourself is considered spamming. Use the edit button to combine your ideas into 1 post.

[Joneagle_X]

@ Beetlelisk , please read the forum guidelines before posting!!!!

What you have just done is considered spam, posting repeatedly after yourself. Please use the edit button at the right. Pencil and paper! :-p

Welcome to the forums.

[Remy]

IO, I really like your idea on keeping formations unique to Terran, since they have a military system. But I was thinking perhaps extend the idea so each of the three races are unique.

For Terran, give them a few pre-set formation options where they can switch between a few formations on-the-fly. One could let you have marines and medics in the front, then vikings, then siege tanks as a marching formation which can also be used for frontal assault. Another for a defensive position where marines surround the closest siege tanks. Perhaps also one where they keep the position based on unit types but spread out side ways horizontally, to have more units on-line providing support fire in large open areas.

I think for Zerg, a much simpler system would be adequate. I think being able to switch between gather and disperse on-the- fly would suffice for Zerg. I don't think Zerg should have a system like Terran where there is automatic unit arrangement based on unit type, when marching the units should still stay mixed and mingled. Even in actual games, it is more important for Zerg to swarm all of their lings/hydras/lurkers up to the enemy, rather than carefully position each type of unit. Also, it is without question that they should eliminate and improve the "single-file-march-of-imminent-death," but that should be an automatic feature for all races.

For Protoss, I want to suggest that they actually be given no formation options, and I think that in itself would be unique. I also think Protoss need it the least, they already have the fewest units on the battle field. But since Protoss players might feel that to be unfair, perhaps formations like the wedge or things like that. Nothing like the Terran or Zerg, but flavorful and unique formations that the Protoss players can toy with.

[SOGEKING]

The formation for the units should be a good suggestion for the SC2 developpers. If not just suggest to allow us to disperse the units. I hate when they go one after one get killed by the enemy, because they follow each other.

[Joneagle_X]

I don't get it... why should the Terrans necessarily get "battle-ready" formations.

The Protoss are the warrior race and depend the most on less units used in better formations and in more useful ways to counter larger numbers. Shouldn't they be the most advanced in their battle formations?

The Terrans are rag-tag fighters, technically. That's part of their appeal. If anything they would be the LEAST organized.

The Zerg are of a SINGLE MIND! Wouldn't that mean they should exactly be able to anticipate the moves of other members of their race? I would think so. While they don't necessarily need formations, the Zerg are the ones most in need of improvements in AI.

[BirdofPrey]

I agree zerg are not a military so they should have no formations but the units should act as one and thus should have the best pathing.

Protoss spend decades in training and thius should have the sharpest movements and tightest formations I am talking distances in exacting ammounts here at precises angles

Terrans will be somewhere in between

[Remy]

I made my idea suggestion with gameplay in mind.  It's based mainly on how each race play, but I think it still fit the lore pretty well TBH.

Terran is the race that rely on unit positioning the most, they have a heavy dependancy on it to be successful.  I think I kind of touched on that in my racial analysis thread.  Based on lore, we know the Terran has a military system.  Any military, no matter how rag-tag, rugged, and unsophisticated, rely heavily on tactical movements and procedures.  If armies from hundreds of years ago functioned this way, it makes no sense for a futuristic Terran armies to behave like headless chicken.  Anyone who've been in one should know this.  But ultimately, I suggest formations for Terran because they have the greatest need for it gameplay wise.

Protoss on the other hand, instead of a military system, they have a caste system.  Instead of military rank, they have warrior classes, spiritual leaders, war machines, etc.  But the most important thing is, although having zealots in front and goons in the back benefit the Protoss, the Protoss by far is the least dependant on careful unit positioning to be successful.  Protoss units are resilient enough to "tough it out" and muscle their way through to get the job done.  But the Protoss is also few in the number of units by comparison, and is easier to micro manually.  Protoss is already the least micro intensive race, they don't really need formations like the ones I suggested for Terran.

The Zerg, unit positioning based on unit type, is relatively unimportant.  Most of the time, you can view the entire Zerg ground force as an army of melee units.  Even though the lurker is a ranged unit, in practice, you play them as melee units.  You have to keep moving your lurkers to get them up in the face of the enemy.  For Zerg, the most important thing is to coordinate your ground units to swarm the enemy together, instead of in several groups.  The difference between dead firebat and a puddle of zergling blood is whether you simply attack or you span out, surround, and hit the firebat with your lings all at once.  In that sense, being able to disperse and close-in on-the-fly is the most important thing for Zerg as far as formation goes.

As for fitting in with the lore, the Zerg is controlled telepathically as one mind.  Being able to have your units disperse and gather at will intuitively as the situations requires, seem like it would fit best with Zerg.  Perhaps even logically possible only by the Zerg.

[coreyb]

I sure hope so like in rise of nation's!

[Joneagle_X]

I was simply pointing out that the Terran aren't going to be as advanced as the Protoss in battle technique. That just the way it stands.

But I suppose you are right in that the Terran are the most in need of some system like this.

But the only fair tradeoff is that the Zerg get MUCH better AI. I can't see being able to micro around even tighter Terran formations if we're still moving in a snake line.

With the Protoss it won't much matter either way. But if they do have formations people will play them even MORE as 90% of the micro work will be done for you.

Zerg is just WAY too many units to effectively micro, so your disperse idea works for me.

The only problem I still have is controlling my lurkers within a large group. They always effect my "attack" commands. I want them to... if not have an above ground attack, at least still have the "attack" command present in their display. That or they could just move around and if a unit comes into range it burrows... etc...

[Wlck742]

Yeah, Lurkers were a bit of a problem when you selected them with other units. It would be much easier if they automatically burrowed. There isn't really a reason for not doing that.

[Remy]

I'm positive the problem with lurkers and units moving out in single file will be taken care of.

[Wlck742]

Probably, but there's always the chance the Lurker got axed.

[BirdofPrey]

I hope not. They made a good ambush and when not being used for that could be used to shore up your defenses. Mobile colony ftw

[Remy]

I don't even like the mention of the possibility of lurkers getting scrapped. The lurker IMO is extremely important to the Zerg, and is one of the few units that I see as good enough to carry over mostly unchanged.

We better get lurkers...

[Joneagle_X]

Or something like them!

Calm down Remy *rubs his shoulders* save it for the Terrans!

[Remy]

NEVERRRRRR~~~ gimme ma lurkerzzz~ >.<

[Joneagle_X]

Lol....

I want us to be a little more versatile on the ground than the Lurker allows. At the very least the Lurker is going to need a faster burrow/unburrow time. These long range units like the Colossus, Thor, and Tanks simply aren't going allow that slow burrow cooldown anymore.

[Remy]

My queen, I think there is a traitor among the Zerg ranks. I think it's Titty Meister. :P

[Joneagle_X]

NO! MY QUEEN! I simply meant we needed change!

*is beheaded*

Fine... I won't say it again...

[Remy]

Not sure if you can after your head is digested in our queen's stomach LOL. It's fun with fellow Zerg around.

Wow, way off topic. But I've said everything I had to about my take on it anyway.

[Joneagle_X]

Lol... we'll go as far off topic as necessary to FOIL THE UNCLEAN!!!!!!! ;)

And I'm a Zerg... I can talk with or without a head... etc... I'll grow a new one eventually...

[Remy]

Just hope it doesn't come out of where the sun dun' shine... that's gonna be one big boo boo. :no:

[Joneagle_X]

AWWWWWWWWWWW........ gross imagery....

"I THINK IT'S CROWNING!!!"

"It's a... it's a.... a Zergling?!?!?!" *Doctor is eaten*

[BnechbReaker]

i certainly wouldn't want starcraft units to move along in a regular box and the like, but the path finding does need to be improved