The Terran Valkyrie

[paragon]

Many people have said different things about the Terran Valkyrie ranging from "IT SUCKS" to "IT RAPES LIGHT AND MEDIUM AIR." Obviously these two statements are on opposite sides of the spectrum of truth so what is the real truth and how will this truth play out in StarCraft 2?

I believe that many of the people who believe the Valkyrie sucks either:
1) can't use it right
2) don't play Terran
3) play against people who don't use it right

The Valkyrie is a niche unit, it was designed to fulfill a specific role involving air defense. Can it win a game for you single handedly? If the player masses light/medium air and has no ground, then sometimes it can if you crush their fleet so bad they quit. Clearly not something that would be attributed to a unit that sucks. However, if the player does not leave after his fleet is crushed, you will have all these Valkyries around and nothing to do with them (as some say) and they will be taking up precious supply (will you even be close to 200 supply? probably not in a real game).

The truth is, Valkyries are NOT useless after the enemy air fleet has been crushed. Do you think the enemy will be making any more air? Not if they're smart. Do you think the zerg player will be able to make any more units with no overlords? No (this would probably cause them to leave). So, you bring in your tanks and your bats and your vultures and whatever else you want because your skies are completely clear.

So, in closing, the Valkyrie does not suck. I voted overhaul because everything seems to be being overhauled and the Valkyrie should get some slight changes to keep up. Some sort of afterburner with a semi-long cooldown maybe.

[Arachanox]

Overhaul it with 'some sort of afterburner'? Paragon, you're taking that idea straight from the Brood War Beta, y'know. ;)

But I agree; the Valk has its uses. I just don't use it.

[AvantGuardian]

Leave it. The Valkyrie is one of my absolute favorite units in Brood War, to the point that I use no other AA unit and built turrets only to act as detectors.

[AvantGuardian]

A trend I've noticed amongst Korean players is a tendency to ignore AA defense in favor of a strong air push. But if you tend to play defensively, as I do, Valkyries are among the best units to have, especially for base defense or when protecting Battlecruisers from pesky Scourge rushes.

[AvantGuardian]

A lot of units that many people rarely use are actually kick-ass, depending on your style of gameplay. The Ultralisks, another underrated unit, are killer at base defense.

[Itsmyship]

I say overhaul it. Valkyries are very useful in certain situations (especially against zerg). I in fact love Valks so much, that I almost never use wraiths (unless a certain need should arise). I would love a 2nd ability though...afterburners sound very good for me, especially in the harassing aspect.
Valkyries are my 2nd favorite unit after only the Goliath

[Monan]

Leave it. Good players can use them very good, you just have to know how to.

[alucardx]

Valkiries are useful when you´re dealing with air massive opposite attacks,,, let´s say a large army of BC´s, carriers (RIP) or mutalisks,,, but you need to know how to use them to appreciate them.

Their attack makes low damage,, but continuous... so they can easily stop armies because of the splash kind-of damage.

They could be overhauled hehe if any additional attack is added,,, let´s say somekind of mini-nuke that can be dropped over some nasty ground units

[DontHate]

I voted to replace it with another unit. i think terren air should have a light fighter suited for attacking ground.

[Itsmyship]

Why? We have Siege Tanks for that job. I don't get what's with ppl and having stuff like Wraiths and Scouts attack ground anyways.

[Ych9]

They will most likely get a overhaul.
Remember back in the BW days, that Valkyries used to be a bomber? I have a feeling that Blizzard is going to bring that idea back in SC2 for the overhauled Valkyries and then change their names. On the other hand, I loved the Valkyries in SC, but the problem with them is, they are way too expensive. Corsairs are cheaper, have distruption web, and can do just about the same as a Valkyrie can do.

I did a test long time ago pitting 12 Corsairs vs 12 Valkyries fully upgraded. To my surprise, the Corsairs came up on top. This was due to the reason the Valkyries have this Sprite bug or something that when they are massed, some of them won't shoot properly. I'm not sure if Blizzard fixed this in their recent patch. But then of course, no one is going to mass Valkyries. But the problem is, if 12 Corsairs can beat 12 Valkyires fully upgraded, and they cost cheaper, and got a nice ability in disruption web, than that tells you that Valkyries should really get overhauled or get some new ability to compensate that.

[Itsmyship]

I love how Valkyries are now, but they of course would need an extra ability to make it to SC2, so I'd personally think of either a)an afterburner as Paragon said or 2) a type of missle that acted as an emp, but also stunning the enemy in a certain radius.

[Goliath Online]

Leave it be!

[Meloku]

a very cool unit, and I loved it, but never really used it in any real battles. Its just too expensive and like stated before, the wraith fills the role better.

[capthavic]

Well I thought it was good at what it does. All we have seen so far is 5 units (counting dropships) and only one was new. Until we know more I would say just update it.

[paragon]

protoss have six air units, tempest, warp ray, phoenix, star relic, phase prism, observer
terran have two so far, battlecruiser and dropship
if they kept the science vessel, the wraith, and the valkyrie, that would be 5. however, I think they will be changing a lot for the terran just like they did for the protoss. (only protoss air unit from the original is the observer)

[beBoy]

vote: Overhaul it, I don't use valks because they stop shooting when alot of sprites are in use. I hope they will keep it and add in some magic to it ;)

[Major Willy]

Valkyries should have an afterburner but a 200 (no Reactor available for them) energy limit that gets 2 energy drained every second.

[ArchLimit]

Overhaul would be good. I liked using Valkyries for Overlord hunting, as well as a great support unit for air as well. I do believe that they are more powerful than Corsairs in sheer firepower. One interesting thing I noticed about the Valk vs. Corsair comparison is that Corsairs are a little better at taking out Scourges, because they have a faster reaction time, in that their "bullets" sort of just spring up on the target as soon as the Corsair shoots. The Valkyrie's bullet spray need to launch and hit, often times rendering the scourges able to reach the desired target before it's killed.

The UPSIDE of Valks compared to Corsairs in my opinion is that their bullets were equal in damage throughout the entire area that they fired at, whereas the Corsairs' damage is only concentrated in the centered spot and it dissipates as the damage radius expands. So it when it came down to fighting BC's 'n what not, you still see them more or less take a unit or two at a time as a opposed to the Valkyries taking out a group of airships simultaneously.

I only stopped using them on Bnet because of that bug where the Valks didn't shoot at a certain map max or something, which just sucked so bad. So if they took that out, up the armor/damage a little, or maybe employ some kind of minor "stun" effect, I'd have a lot of fun with it.

Devourers have corrosive acid, corsairs have dweb, y not give the Valks some'n?

[Ych9]

Lets hope for tomorrow's E3, that they will release some info on the Terrans. Hopefully, we will get to know the Terrans as much as we do as the Protoss before the PC gamer Magazine issue was released. From what I'm expecting, I think they will probably be releasing a new video based on the Terrans. Maybe we will see the new and improved Valkyries :)

[Dreadnought]

I thought the valkryies moved very fast. Compare them to a mutalisk and you will see what i mean. About the only thing they are bad at is harassing because while they are firing they must hold still.

[marinepower]

They are very effective at what they do, but they just aren't that useful.

Against capital ships their rockets do around 1-3 damage, and unlike any other ship they don't have a special ability. Sure they can decimate overlords, but even if they kill 2 then die, you still lose out economically. Considering this, like the poll shows bliz should overhaul it and give it some sort of special ability. If it doesn't, the phoenix will destroy it in maybe 2 seconds.

[Remy]

I've already said everything that I needed to say about valks in my Units That Sucked thread, valks sucked.

I voted overhaul, but if phoenix replacing corsair and scout is considered scrapping on the corsair and scout's part, then trash valks it is. Overhaul or scrap, it doesn't really matter. Depending on how you think about it, it's really the same thing. The important thing is, valks won't be back in their SC1 form, and it sure ain't gonna be cuz of "everything else is getting overhauled."

Don't assume someone can't play Terran correctly because they choose to main another race. And you seem to assume valks automatically hand Terran the skies, not always the case either. Valks sucked not because they couldn't do what they were made to do, if merely being able to fill the assigned role makes something not suck, then ultras wouldn't have sucked either.

Let me make my wild assumptions too. I believe that many people who insist valks don't suck when they clearly do either:
1) believe they're somehow the only ones to know how to use them correctly out of the whole damn planet
2) can only play Terran
3) play against people who suck and can't react correctly to valks or anything else for that matter

[Alasdair]

sorry, but im crazy about historical accuracy so i gotta say that id prefer it not in SC2, because the valkryies were an invention of UED, and since they were massacered, i dont think they should still be there, unless Mengsk remodeled them (an overhaul) then id be fine with it, dont get me wrong, i think they're amazing, one time i took out 1 carrier, 3 scouts and 4 corsairs at the same time with 6 valks

[L89]

I like them. However, personally I don't use them much. But I'm not a good player so yeah...
I don't mind overhauling them but I voted for leaving them be. Maybe with an extra ability but keeping the original shape and attack method. More importantly, I hope terran in sc2 still hire female pilots :P

[Remy]

Welcome to the forums.

I actually have always thought valks looked like flying buses or minivans. But you sure have a point on female pilots.

[L89]

Thanks for the warm welcome Remy!

A little off the actual topic but still on air units...
We have all seen the plethora of new air units for protoss. Now IMHO, the protoss is the most stagnant of all three races. From this perspective, I do hope that Blizzard comes up with some really cool (slash cooler) units for terran (since human technology is always developing no matter how advanced it already is), while keeping the original bc and upgrading the styling (and function) of the wraith and valkyrie without deviating their look too much from the original.

Btw: excellent ideas have already popped up all over the forum, ranging from gunships, bombers, A10s, helicopters, etc...

[paragon]

theres no real trick in using valkyries correctly. you just sorta fly them over to the enemy light/medium air units and shoot at the biggest clump of them.

[Remy]

theres no real trick in using valkyries correctly.


Hmmm... quite contradictory to what you said in your opening post wouldn't you say?


I believe that many of the people who believe the Valkyrie sucks either:
1) can't use it right
2) don't play Terran
3) play against people who don't use it right

[Itsmyship]

I love Valks a lot, I would use them over Wraiths almost always. However, like Remy said, they're not gonna be around in the same form they were in SC1, but I do want them around in some form or such.

Valks always reminded me of helicopters for some reason, even though it does the complete opposite job an assault helicopter does. Guess I'll just hope for a helicopterish type unit though :)

[josh]

whenever I play with my friends, they always make air units. so i build valkyries whenever im terran. its not really bad coz even though its attack per missile is weak, they fire a barrage of them. and it kinda has a splash damage too. they're also great for pursuing escaping air units coz they're real fast.

[paragon]

Hmmm... quite contradictory to what you said in your opening post wouldn't you say?

No, not at all. I've seen people do amazingly stupid things. Saying it is not hard and saying that some people don't use them right are two completely different things. Therefore, no contradiction is made. If people use them to go after carriers or battlecruisers they will not perform well due to armor reduction. If people don't aim for clusters of air units they will not perform as well.

[Remy]

First suggesting that there is a right way of using valks, then later stating that there is no trick to using them correctly, meaning it is automatically used correctly be default, would be quite the contradiction.

If it's not hard, then you're suggesting that most people use valks correctly anyway. It's only the extreme minority who can't use valks or any other damn thing correctly, who we really don't have to consider in the first place.

If you say it's not a contradiction based on the extremely stupid side of things, then it makes your statements in the opening post rather pointless. Basically you are saying that you based you opinion on the fact that most others who has an opinion(on the topic of valks) different from yours are complete morons who can't play SC on a whole in a remotely meaningful manner any damn way.

I somehow would have to disagree with that logic, as I myself disagrees with your opinion on valks. Let it be known to the world that I think valks sucked. OMG, and here I was thinking that I was pretty damn good at that game.

[Alasdair]

im pretty sure she meant that its not hard to use them correctly, its just that alot of people just cant seems to grasp the idea that their specialist units and that they cant beat another air superiority fighter 1vs1

i like your paragraphs tho :good:

[Remy]

I thought Paragon was a guy... ehh~ whatever.

[paragon]

Not being able to use one unit the best that it can be used or not seeing anyone use them the best they can be used does not mean that person sucks at the entire game. That is like saying someone can't pronounce one word correctly when they read it so they suck at reading entirely. Most people on battle.net suck. I've had people on battle.net ask me to join their clans because they thought I was so good when I played 6-7 years ago and yet I know I sucked. And this happened many many times. Also, most people play fastest maps and money maps so they would also suck at playing on actual maps because they don't have a concept of expanding so they would run out of minerals and lose.

[Remy]

I didn't bring up the sucking thing, you did.


I've seen people do amazingly stupid things.


This is something that you brought up while trying to explain why you didn't make contradictions. Which if I may, is flawed anyway.

You first established the condition in which that there is a correct way of using valkyries. Along with that you said that many people who argue that valks suck are people who fail to use them correctly. You implied a direct connection between the two.

Then later on you go on to say that there is no trick to using valks correctly. Meaning, it is something very trivial to satisfy the condition of using valks correctly. You bring up something to base your argument with as the basis of your opinion, yet you dismiss the importance of it immediately afterward. This already either contradicts your first idea, or makes your first idea a meaningless rhetoric. You make that call.

Then to give reason to why you didn't make a contradiction, the first thing you mention is that you have witnessed people doing "amazingly stupid things." Choice number 2 I believe btw. You introduced the association between stupid people and using valks incorrectly. You did, not me.

By inference, we can summarize that you established these ideas: [there is a correct use of valks] >> [it is something extremely trivial] >> [something so trivial that only extremely stupid people fail to do] >> [only people who can't use valks correctly argue against their worth] >> [all who argue against the worth of valks are extreme morons].

If using valks correctly is something so damn trivial, then one can reason to think that most other things in SC gameplay which ain't so damn trivial would be even more difficult for those who can't even use valks correctly. I never said based on what you said people who can't use valks correctly can't do all other things in SC correctly. I said, based on what you said people who can't use valks correctly can't play SC as a whole in a meaningful manner to matter. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Now you either made a contradiction, or you just said that anyone who argue that valks sucked are most likely people who can't even use them right and are complete morons because using valks right is so damn easy and basic. You decide which.

Note that for the latter, it would also mean your opening post, your opinion on valks, and this entire thread is completely pointless and full of crap. Because then we establish that you are basically saying that anyone who argue against you on the matter of valks can't use them right, thus suck, and also thus are complete morons who do amazingly stupid things. Now since that logic in itself is complete crap, so would your opening post, your opinion on valks, and this entire thread that branched off of your opening post.

[Remy]

I loved everything about the valk's attack. I didn't appreciate the flying minivan look much though.

[paragon]

I never said or inferred that it was something trivial required to properly use valks. I also made mention of the fact that there is a way to use valks period and a way to use valks as best as possible. So, since I never inferred that the correct use of valks was something trivial, the rest of your argument stemming from that statement is invalid. So, don't put words in my mouth either.
Also, starcraft is obviously not a game where you just build units and throw them at one another, it requires micro. you could have the same number of type of units fight one another and the outcome of the battle would be different every single time because of micro. Valks require micro just like every other unit. Their role is air support. They fill their role better than any other terran unit. Therefore, they do not suck.

[FlyingTiger]

yea i use valks with conjunction with battlecruisers when the game gets long. Once upgraded all the way, they f-in own the devourers and corsairs. There cool down rate is better than the devourers, their attack is a lot better than both (5* 8 = 40, upgraded 8 * 8 = 64), and hp is decent too. I think they would be too powerful with afterburners though.

[Remy]

Then let me take the words out of your mouth.


theres no real trick in using valkyries correctly.



No, not at all. I've seen people do amazingly stupid things. Saying it is not hard and saying that some people don't use them right are two completely different things.


Saying that there is no trick to doing something would kinda mean it's something pretty damn easy and simple, thus trivial wouldn't you agree? There is no trick, nothing to it, anyone can do it. I hope this debate doesn't get to the point where I even have to make those simple connections for you and explain to you what you've said. And I suppose mentioning how you've seen amazing accounts of stupidity immediate preceeding the rest of the statements have no meaning and reason at all?

That's either another contradiction or another meanlingless rhetoric btw. Again, you make the call.

Valks don't suck because they aren't effective AA, they can do that job pretty well. It's where they sit when you view how Terran is played on a whole that made them suck. Playing Terran in any evenly matched games on non-island maps will mean you won't have the extra food nor the resources to be put into a dedicated anti air ONLY unit.

Valks do the trick, but that's all in can do if there is even that use. It's a one trick pony. When you can get the AA job done AND every other job like stealth strike with wraiths, it makes getting valks quite meaningless. Valks carry a certain risk to Terran, because Terran's main strength in both offense and defense lie in their overall ground force. Terran doesn't have units as resilient as Toss yet they can't replace lost ground units quickly like Zerg either. But they have a greater dependancy on their ground force compared to the other two races.

It's not the fact that you're getting decent dedicated AA that sucks, it's how it takes away from everything else that sucks big time for Terran. If you think you can single out a unit and evaluate its worth by only looking at what it is alone, you are quite mistaken. But the fact is, valks are not anywhere near as impressive in reality as they are on paper. They can't even do the damage they are supposed to against what they are made to fight. And that's the only thing they can do? Sure sounds like it sucks to me.

Can you make valks and still win? Sure. Can you make queens or scouts and still win? Of course. Queens require micro. Queens were support, obviously because they are casters. Queens spawn broodling to instantly take out key ground units better than any other unit. Queens still sucked like hell.

The fact that you are arguing that valks were good, isn't nearly as urprising that you argue for valks yet you aren't starting a campaign about ultras. Valks sucked.

EDIT: @ FlyingTiger
Valk's were made to take down the other races' swarms of tactical air units, scouts and mutas. But since you won't see anyone using scouts, it'll be corsairs instead. That's the role of valks, but valks can't deal propler damage to its these targets because corsairs are medium(75% damage) and mutas are small(50% damage). Valks themselves are large and take full damage from EVERYTHING that can attack air.

Valk's base damage is 6 per missile not 5 btw. But it'll never do that 6 against things you get valks for. And it's pretty textbook to focus on armor upgrade over attack upgrade for air. And splash damage from attack that were already very weak in the first place(valk missiles, corsair attacks, muta bounces without devourers), become increasingly useless the more armor the enemy units have.

I've explained it all in my Units That Sucked thread. Devourer cooldown isn't really a weakness because you don't have them for dealing direct damage anyway. And against devs, valk's cooldown will become longer than devs. And of course, your damage equations are really not how it goes down.

[Nikzad]

I <3 Remy
I never liked valkyries

[Remy]

Thank you, I love you too Nikzad.

The only unit that I didn't like at all in any way was the broodling.

[FlyingTiger]

yea u r right remy ... thats why i use them for support... not really as a main attack force anyways

haha at least you can destroy a tank with one shot and have a couple of annoying broodlings to do some mini-damage

[PowerkickasS]

i loved broodlings!
power overwhelming + the gathering + operation cwal + your queen camping a terran factory ;D

but holy shiz never knew i was missing the battle between two of the most _____ minds of this forum in this thread! i would just *sits back with a packet of popcorn* but nah....stop arguing about the valk! it sucks full stop you use them then gg! a friend of mine used it and gg! my enemy used it and gg! that guy used it gg!

[UchihaItachi0129]

i loved broodlings!
power overwhelming + the gathering + operation cwal + your queen camping a terran factory ;D

you could do that to the barracks and the command center too ;)

[TerranGod]

wraith > valkaries

i personally hate valks

[Wlck742]

valks are a bit too specialized for my taste. If the opponents don't have air, which they *should* have, they're completely useless. Anyways, wraiths are better w/ their cloaking. They're faster too I think.

[Ych9]

I still don't understand why Blizzard took out the Afterburners for the Valkyries. For those who didn't know, during the BW beta, Valkyries had an afterburner ability. It wouldn't make them overpowered in any case. I would make them more useful for sure. But even with the afterbuner ability, I don't think the Valkyries will still be too useful. The reason is simply because they were too expensive for what they could do. The Corsairs could basically do the same thing + more.

[Remy]

First of all, if valks even make it back, they need to be dropped to 2 food, among other changes of course. Terran doesn't need a 3 food single use AA only unit.

That's one of the worst things about valks. Most people fail to consider that fact when they evaluate a valk's damage output.

[UchihaItachi0129]

mass valk on zerg overlords=owned/gg

[Remy]

Actually, mass valk of 3 food each = Terran get owned on ground/gg

While Zerg is undeniably the most vulnerable(actually the ONLY race) to supply hunt strat, most self-respecting Zerg players know this. With good recon and a few well placed spores, it won't be too hard to fend of an ovie hunt. The ones roaming around outside of the base would be reasonable losses.

Even though Zerg is vulnerable to ovie hunting, Zerg is also the one race that can replace a large amount of lost food supply very quickly. With the mass valk ovie hunt that you're talking about, the Terran would be aiming for a small window of production delay, one round of larva production cycle, to take advantage of.

I don't know how big a "mass" we're talking about here, but for every valk it's that much less on the ground for Terran, which is needed more for actual damage. And if it's truly a large number of valks, which will basically be a near suicidal all-in strat in itself, if the assault fails it's pretty much GG for the Terran.

[UchihaItachi0129]

While Zerg is undeniably the most vulnerable(actually the ONLY race) to supply hunt strat,

you mean you dont go supply depot hunting? O.O

[Remy]

Not really. When I drop or air raid, SCVs are usually my focus a lot of times. After that I usually hit key tech buildings. Armories, control towers, and comsat are some good ones, other ones if I have more time. I rarely touch people's combat units, supply building, or unit production building.

If it's later in the game vs Terran, if you can get your guys in there deep enough to hit supply depots without dropping or air raiding, then it's pretty much over at that point. I save supply buildings and production buildings for full assaults because P/T can't really pump out replacement units fast enough to save their asses anyway.

[PowerkickasS]

i hunt pylons ^.^
just because they look funny ;D
j/k

[Shadowdragon]

If they put valks back, they would really need something like mass lockdown for half the time to be of any use (to me, at least). Personally, stem marines did the same job pretty much just as well (when working with a few turrents)

[paragon]

doesn't matter. I'm now sure that the scv, battlecruiser, marine, ghost, and dropship are the only returning terran units

[burkid]

yeah since there are now replacements for the wraith/goliath and the goliath.

[Remy]

I still think that there is a chance for wraith to make a return.

[burkid]

with the cloak, possibly. if it didnt have the cloak, it would be gone for sure.

[Remy]

Don't see why it wouldn't have cloak...

It is for that reason that I believe wraith still might be in. Well, that and the fact that it's hard to believe that the viking fighter and BCs will be the only air combat units for Terran.

[burkid]

i was talking about the original. theoretically, if it was never given cloak, it would be gone for sure.

[Remy]

Ahh I see, sorry I misunderstood.

I agree, the cloaking ability was a very important aspect of the wraith.

[paragon]

wraith might make it back. I think the viking is more of a valkyrie/goliath combo than a wraith/goliath combo

[Remy]

That's what I think too. I actually firmly believe that, I'm just waiting for more info to confirm it for me.

I knew there was no way in hell for the valk to come back. I thought the goliath would return, but this is almost the same thing but better in every way. Just change the half ass name.

[burkid]

change it from viking to leviathan.

[Remy]

That's it, I'm starting a thread about it...

[burkid]

lol have fun with that.