Guardian Drama

[Star-Crap]

I heard the Guardians are not making a return to SC2. Can Anyone back this up or prove it wrong?

[ImaGiNe.]

Why would they remove the Zerg's only unit with a long range bombardment function? Where did you hear this from?

[Star-Crap]

i forgot but they might replace it with some new unit

possibilities...?

[ImaGiNe.]

The Zerg Guardian may just get a new design and possibly have a lot more hit points and attack damage. But who knows, I just cannot wait until the Zerg units are released on the official StarCraft 2 site.

[CodyFallsForth]

We haven't heard much on zerg at all. I wouldn't say they are scraping it yet.

[mc2]

The Zerg is constantly evolving very quickly to adapt to new enviornments/enemies. So I think all of you guys are right. They'll revamp the visual feattures of the Guardian, as well as modify the attacks. I believe it'll still be fairly long ranged, preferably longer than phase cannons and missile turrets.

I also strongly believe they'll do something to the speed of the guardians. They'll probably decrease their HP in return for higher movement speed, although I do not wish so because 120HP is already low enough (one psionic storm almost wipes it out). Or they'll simply copy the idea from overlords for the speed upgrade

[Ych9]

They have 150HP, not 120HP.
But back on topic, I think the Guardians will most likely get a rename and remodel. But their role will most likely be the same. In that, they are siege units from the sky. Like mc2 said, they will probably get some overhaul in their attack damage/HP and etc. But nothing to major I believe. Their main job would not be taken out and that is to be an air siege unit.

[[LightMare]]

well, does the protoss have a long range....reaver? but it's not long range

[Star-Crap]

the protoss had the carrier. it had the same range as a guardian. im not sure if the tempest is gonna have the same deal

[FlyingTiger]

eh almost the same range as the guardian. You need to be a bit closer for the carrier.


I also strongly believe they'll do something to the speed of the guardians. They'll probably decrease their HP in return for higher movement speed, although I do not wish so because 120HP is already low enough (one psionic storm almost wipes it out). Or they'll simply copy the idea from overlords for the speed upgrade


I also think that they will do a speed upgrade with the guardians if they keep them, which I think they will. I think Guardian HP is fine at where is at. I think the speed upgrade and maybe up the cost and attack damage a tiny bit will do the trick.

[LimaBeanMage]

I don't think speed is necessary for their job. You generally don't receive siege units who also happen to be fast. Reavers, Guardians, and Tanks are all slow and very powerful. They excel taking out defensive positions and eating through buildings, not winning speed trials.

[FlyingTiger]

Well what do you say about the ultralisk? They had a speed upgrade and I would consider them a siege unit. Thoughts?

[LimaBeanMage]

Yes, the ultralisk is a siege unit. But, it is a different type of siege unit. I think its speed is justified by it limitation to engage in melee combat. Also it's lack of attack speed and damage is justified by its thick armor. The units I mentioned earlier are ranged siege units, part of their bargain was to lose speed for power I think.

[FlyingTiger]

Yea I agree. Actually I don't really like guardians to have a speed upgrade anyways since it has the longest range behind the siege tank and its quite powerful in groups. Maybe an armor upgrade for the guardian.

[CodyFallsForth]

Well what do you say about the ultralisk? They had a speed upgrade and I would consider them a siege unit. Thoughts?


Battering Ram.

[Ghost]

But back on topic, I think the Guardians will most likely get a rename and remodel. But their role will most likely be the same.
Trimmed quote to the meat.


I agree on the rename, cuz their not really guardians are they? I dont know many zerg players that use them for defense as much as attack.

[Star-Crap]

yeh i bet they'll just get a name change kinda like the Tempest and the Carrier. Arnt they the same unit? The Tempest just has that ground shield.

[Lemonparty]

They'll be renamed to Spacecrab

[Star-Crap]

the zergs got crabs

[Remy]

SC1 siege units:

Protoss:  Reaver-range 8, Carrier-range 8
Terran:  Siege Tank-range 12, Battlecruiser(yama)-range 10
Zerg:  Guardian-range 8
Static D: range 7

As Zerg's only siege unit, guardians are definitely making their way back in some way, shape, or form.  Ultras are not siege units, they are meatshield tanks.  If you classifiy ultras as siege, then pretty much all combat units in the game are siege, as well as science vessels, defilers, and queens.

[Itsmyship]

Well nowadays, the Protoss siege weapon is Warp Ray and Reaver

[FlyingTiger]

As Zerg's only siege unit, guardians are definitely making their way back in some way, shape, or form. Ultras are not siege units, they are meatshield tanks. If you classifiy ultras as siege, then pretty much all combat units in the game are siege, as well as science vessels, defilers, and queens.


yea battering rams are siege... so thats like what the ultra is. The ultralisk is used for ripping through defenses and it as a decent attack. What I'm trying to say is siege does not have to be ranged.

I mean c'mon queens siege? It can't rip through defenses cause its not siege. Same to science vessels and deifler. You can't mass them and expect to destroy a base. ^_^

[Remy]

You can use any combat unit to attack an enemy base, by your definition all non-caster units are siege.

Science vessels can siege a Toss base, EMP is actually one of the best things for it. Defilers can plague buildings. Queens can one-shot damaged command centers by infesting it which is still a considerable amount of HP. Quite flawed logic on your part to consider ultra as siege yet not vessel, defiler, or queen merely because they are caster units.

And what's my point in all this? Do I actually believe the casters or just all combat units to be siege? No, not really. But I do not believe the ultra to be siege either. Drawing enemy fire isn't siege. Zerg players don't get ultras to break down buildings, we get them to soak and survive tank fire so other units can go in and dish out the hurt. Ultras aren't the answer when we see a big pile of cannons, it's the answer when we see a big pile of tanks. And please don't go assuming that this is always at the Terran's base.

And no, ultras do not have a decent attack. It has a crappy ass attack for its food, it's one of the worst damage output available to Zerg. It's true that siege does not have to be ranged, but it's not in StarCraft.

[mc2]

I think Blizzard does not want the Zerg have a distinct unit for seige. They are mostly heading in the direction of having mass amounts of zerglings and hydralisks as a seige method.

Just like you would use corsairs to shield the scourges from carriers. Also shield the lockdown from BCs and carriers by placing cheaper mechanical units at the front. In Zerg's case, the ultralisk is a shield for the zerglings and hydralisks when the smaller units rip the real damage on the base. So in that sense the mass lings and hydras sort of became the seige units for the zerg.

Back on topic with guardians, they could implement something similar to devourers, where consecutive attacks accumulate damage.

[FlyingTiger]

eh I see what you mean Remy. It really depends though on each person's definition of siege is.

For me, I think siege units are units that are mainly use to creep up and penetrates one's base or expansion. Also siege units are there to support the infantry, etc. So I have the stats to compare the units.

Guardians: Cost: 200 gas, 150 minerals with 2 supply (counting muta cost)
Attack value: 20
Hit Points: 150
Range: 8

Ultralisks: Cost 200 gas, 200 minerals with 6 supply
Attack value: 20
Hit Points: 400 ... can upgrade armor and speed
Range: 1

The small differences cancel each other out. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. It's just the huge advantage of the guardian is that they are out of range of the defense; however, they both serve there purpose as I stated above. Ultralisks have to have more HP, speed, and extra armor to compensate for their melee attack. I've used ultras before attacking a bunch of cannons and along with hydras, they are pretty formidable and they really decimate mostly any defense.

I mean guardians are easily countered by anti air.. whether it be wraiths, devourers, scouts, corsairs, etc. Ultralisks can be countered by infantry or basic units like zerglings or zealots. So in all, ultralisks don't really have to be the unit that takes in all the fire, but they are sure as hell good at it. ^_^

EDIT: oh so I just read mc2's post right... completely ignoring it. However, he does have a good point. I guess really there is no siege unit cause anything really can be siege. I mean if tanks were called Tanks, we wouldn't really have this mine set of siege, would we? If starcraft had walls (ick), then we can decide whether each unit is siege, but there are not any walls (thank GOD!). ^_^

So yea in responding to mc2's idea, I don't really like the idea of accumulating damage. I think just straight out damage is fine especially when it's out of the range of a defensive structure.

[tweakismyname]

i think they will take the guardian out and replace it with a new long range killer,
a praying mantis with shooting arms! eh? eh? ahhhhhh!

[Remy]

Ultralisk is actually only 4 supply. But the worst thing about getting ultras is the extra tech involved in getting them.

Having used mutas earlier in the game, guardians are just one spire upgrade away. Evolving from mutas is an added incentive as it mean every badly hurt muta can come back as full HP guardians, as well as having slow ass guardians closer to where you need them.

Getting ultras however, mean an extra pre-req tech building that's good for nothing else, and the two upgrades are pretty much a necessity as well.

To take down a big bunch of cannons that late in the game, I usually use cracklings/hydra/lurker and darkswarm when I need it. With a good number of cracklings, often times you won't even need to darkswarm at all.

[FlyingTiger]

yea i love cracklings... they are cheap and they f-in rock haha

i usually tech to cracklings fast when i play 2 v 2 ^_^

[kehmdaddy]

The Guardian used to be my favorite unit, and is still up there... I really like its look for some reason. I hope they re-tool it, and I suppose a new name would be more fitting to the usage of the unit, but I will be pretty upset if it gets removed completely. And making the re-tooled guardian a little faster would make me pretty happy as well ^_^

[Dreadnought]

Guardians were really awsome. Just needed a better attack animation. I want to see some hocking up. Not just green stuff fly out of there face lol.

[DontHate]

yea i'd be pissed if they took it out. It was very powerful and one of zerg's more important units. Helped me win alot of games ;(. You'll be missed.

[josh]

there's a possibility thatthey'll change the name of the guardian but will still retain their use.

[Ghost]

And making the re-tooled guardian a little faster would make me pretty happy as well ^_^


It cant be made faster as it would be used to hit and run, the guardian only had two kye weaknesses, its inability to attack air and its speed. The air vulnerability could be eliminated by having mutas or devourers and mutas flying around with it so it has to keep one of its weaknesses which is idealy, its speed.

[Star-Crap]

ok for the guardians at least up their hp or armor. A few marines can really weaken a team of guardians before they can reach the base. for them to cost as much as they do and die so quickly. FTL

[Cerebrate]

** Hi guys! my first post on these forums, I am absolutely fanatic Starcraft fan and I can't seriosly stay on my pants waiting for SC2 ! I pretty much check this site every hour ! This must be best unoffical Starcraft 2 site there is. Great community, great news**

Well I am quite sure that all of three races the Zerg will be having most of changes.

I am Zerg player at my heart and it pains me to know that Blizzard will release Zerg info last :-\

However good is worth of waiting for and I know that Zerg will be totally awesome ;D

I hope that they don't ditch guardians, I just loved to use guardians easily my favorite air unit and guardians were just so effective against all ground targets. Dragoons,Marines,photon cannons and everything just EXPLODED when those lovely yellow balls started to fill air :thumbup:

But if Guardians will be ditched I guess Blizzard will have some new toys that will make it worth it =D

[SirBaron]

Yeah, i'm a hardcore Zergie as well... but i kinda look forward to Zerg not being shown until release date (or that's what i'm hoping for, at best...) since revealing too much takes away the excitement.

Well, Guardians... never use them too much, it's damn nice though to pop some out now and then and go tower-harassing with teh hydras.