The Firebat

[DKutrovsky]

Im hearing that the reapers get an upgrade that allows them to use flame throwers.

I know they have duel-wield pistols, and maybe one was for fire, but i just thought they were going old school cowboy shooting 2 pistols at once.

I cant seem to find that vid with reapers shooting flames. If they do in fact have that upgrade, than say goodbye to the firebat and say hello to the NBA happy jumper reapers(i like them btw)

[generalrievous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30MBljXxg3M

[DKutrovsky]

Are you reffering to the first battle vs the Soul Hunters?

I do not think that was flame throwers. I think its the animation when the reapers get killed, their gas tanks explode and they fly in different directions, i didnt see one clear flame line there, i did notice they were all shooting their pistols though...

[marinepower]

I doubt that the reaper will be able to shoot flames, especially since bliz wrote in the reapers desrciption that they are armed with 2 pistols. Also, the game might become imbalanced if firebats are taken out because terrans will now have a much harder time dealing with ling rushes, even if they build bunkers. I also count on them not being able to stim, so thats another reason why bats might stay in SC2.

[DKutrovsky]

Agreed, i still want bats

[Remy]

Reapers shoot flame. You can tell from the very first one that attacks, before any reapers or marines die.

Reapers doubling up on the role of firebats can only be beneficial to Terran.

[DKutrovsky]

I really dont think they shoot flames, i still think its their jet pack exploding, i saw them shooting their pistols, not flames.

[Remy]

There really is no mistaking it. If it was hard to see I wouldn't really say that they do. But the first reaper that attacks, you can clearly see that it shoots firebat styled flames to its front.

You can also clearly tell that it is not the jetpack because you can see the jetpack flames on its back at the same time the flames shoot out from its front.

I don't know if there are more than one resolution of the video out there, but unless it's on youtube or something, you really can't miss it.

[UchihaItachi0129]

man does this mean firebats are getting the axe too? T_T blizzard what are you doing to me T_T

[Remy]

If you analyize things after looking at the big picture, it's actually a good thing for Terran players.

If people are upset because they liked the firebats personality and attitude, well, that really can't be helped. We shall have a moment of silence. Things sure were toasty with bats around, melting piles and piles of lings into puddles of goo. At least you'll still get to do that, but just with reapers.

[Ych9]

I sure won't be missing those Firebats if they are going to be replaced by Reapers.
Reapers are in every way, cooler than those Firebats. I mean, seriously, it doesn't get any cooler than infantry with jumppacks. Plus, Firebats in the original SC were way to overspecialized. If the Reapers have this alternative weapon that could shoot flamethrowers, it's going to be very useful.

[DKutrovsky]

Ok, i watched it on youtube, in the enlarged version, and i did see it, the grass around the soul hunters also got lit up on fire, so yeah, they are in fact shooting flames...

Bye bye firebats, and hello reapers. Do you think they'll have 2 modes ? One for pistols one for flames or how do you think thats going to work?

[marinepower]

No, i disagree that they shoot flames. Blizzard specifically said that they are only equipped with pistols, and all those random flames going around was their death animation, with their jetpack randomly exploding and flying in a random direction. You can also see this in the other video where the reapers assault a protoss base and that phase prism comes up. None of them were shooting anything except for their dual pistols.

Long live the firebat! :thumbup:

[DKutrovsky]

Not true marinepower.

I did see the flames, shooting forward, and i did see the grass lit up on fire. They do shoot flames.

[Ych9]

No, i disagree that they shoot flames. Blizzard specifically said that they are only equipped with pistols, and all those random flames going around was their death animation, with their jetpack randomly exploding and flying in a random direction. You can also see this in the other video where the reapers assault a protoss base and that phase prism comes up. None of them were shooting anything except for their dual pistols.

Long live the firebat! :thumbup:



Marinepower, did you get a chance to see the Reapers in action for the PC gamer Magazine video? If you haven't, you should go take a look. Those Reapers were clearly shooting flamethrowers. If that is the case, we can assume as of now, Reapers have a dual attack mode. They can toggle between dual pistols and flamethrowers. How cool is that?

Bye Bye Firebats. I know I won't be missing you.

[Remy]

Blizzard specifically said that they are only equipped with pistols...


When did Blizzard say that reapers were ONLY equipped with pistols? Don't selectively quote while adding your own, it defeats the purpose of citing a source.

There really is no grounds for debate on this one I'm afraid. Everyone who still has a shred of doubt, do yourselves a favor and get your hands on a hi-res copy of the leaked vid. There is always the "not final until release" factor, but at this point with evidence this clear, saying otherwise is really just spreading faulty information.

But another thing, about the repears switching weapons back and forth, I'm not sure if we can make that assumption just yet. In the leaked vid, I don't think any reapers used pistols, they all used flamethrowers as far as I can tell. Thus, there is still the chance that it's either a permanent researched upgrade that universally converts all your reapers to shoot flames, or an upgrade that permanently converts reapers on an individual basis.

A weapon mode switch was what I initially thought as well, but I just wanted to point out that this is still not 100% due to the other possibilities are out there.

[LJYLJ]

after downloading and watching the HD def of the video i would say (quite sure) that ur so called reaper flame is either the jump pack flames activating or just a bug from their afterburners as the reaper turn around before shooting..

they would have showd us the reaper flamethrower or atleast told us about in the gameplay demo if it did excist

[GuiMontag]

its most likely a universal upgrade like the uranium shells for marines

[Remy]

after downloading and watching the HD def of the video i would say (quite sure) that ur so called reaper flame is either the jump pack flames activating or just a bug from their afterburners as the reaper turn around before shooting..


So every single reaper in that vid constantly bugged out, interesting theory but I can't really agree.  The first reaper turned around like you said, but it actually turns back around to face the soul hunters before shooting flames.  The whole time you can clearly see the jetpack flames, they don't even look the same.  If it's too fast, which it really isn't, use a player that can play it at slower speeds.


they would have showd us the reaper flamethrower or atleast told us about in the gameplay demo if it did excist


The "leaked vid" itself wasn't officially released by Blizzard on the SC2 offical site, why would they explain anything in there?  And the fact that the gameplay demo was a demonstration of work-in-progress guarantees that there will be things that come after not covered in it.

I am quite puzzled on how anyone thinks it looks like anything else when it's the exact same animation as firebat's flamethrower attack.  I'm usually too lazy for this kind of stuff, but here it is...  If anyone can do it with better quality then please do the honors, as I'm not too good at this kinda stuff. Animated GIF would be nice.

[DKutrovsky]

heh, on that pick it actually looks like flames from the guns, from bullets being shot than an actual flamethrower.

If you put an image thats bigger, you can see flames on the grass around the soul hunter

[TerranGod]

reapers DO shoot flames
watch the one with phase cannons
when the drop ships drop them you can CLEARLY see the reapers shooting out fire and the phase cannons go red

[Remy]

You're right, you can see it better in the phase cannon section of the leaked vid.

[FlyingTiger]

wow seriously why are people denying that the repears uses a flamethrower. It clearly shoots flames in the HD leaked video. It's so clear! Remy is right with all his arguments like when did they say reapers only uses pistols... GAH

EDIT: ya look at the pictures... no death!


heh, on that pick it actually looks like flames from the guns, from bullets being shot than an actual flamethrower.

If you put an image thats bigger, you can see flames on the grass around the soul hunter


If you look at the official gameplay video, you don't see flames coming out when the reapers were shooting their pistols at the immortals. So no to the flame coming out of the pistol.


I really dont think they shoot flames, i still think its their jet pack exploding, i saw them shooting their pistols, not flames.


You see them die in the official gameplay video... their jetpacks are not exploding like a forward flame, they are twirling around with their jetpacks.

[[LightMare]]

I doubt that the reaper will be able to shoot flames, especially since bliz wrote in the reapers desrciption that they are armed with 2 pistols. Also, the game might become imbalanced if firebats are taken out because terrans will now have a much harder time dealing with ling rushes, even if they build bunkers. I also count on them not being able to stim, so thats another reason why bats might stay in SC2.

i don't really think you know what you're talking about... they shoot flamethrowers. maybe not as long as the firebat did, but they certainly do. please check your sources before posting idly like this, and furthermore, embarrassing yourself

[Remy]

And just in case that somehow, just somehow, there are still people who can't see the flames, here's the muzzle flash for comparison. You can clearly see the difference, and this is just from still frame caps. In motion, it's undeniable.

[DKutrovsky]

yep, they shoot flames its official, kinda weak flames though no?

[DontHate]

yea i liked the fbat flames a lot better.

[UchihaItachi0129]

welcome to the forums LJYLJ and lol on your icon. pawn rush ftw. get those extra queens :good:

[TerranGod]

I doubt that the reaper will be able to shoot flames, especially since bliz wrote in the reapers desrciption that they are armed with 2 pistols. Also, the game might become imbalanced if firebats are taken out because terrans will now have a much harder time dealing with ling rushes, even if they build bunkers. I also count on them not being able to stim, so thats another reason why bats might stay in SC2.

i don't really think you know what you're talking about... they shoot flamethrowers. maybe not as long as the firebat did, but they certainly do. please check your sources before posting idly like this, and furthermore, embarrassing yourself


they shoot flamethrowers and shoot pistols and they should stim since they are also human

[ZiiDriX]

So it will change randomly btw Flame ´n´ bullets or what? 2 - 3 attacks for a marine?

[Remy]

I can't really understand what you're trying to say ZiiDriX.  But it wouldn't make sense for reapers to switch between attacks randomly.  It is likely that the flamethrower is a researched upgrade.

However, there is another possibility.  It could be that Blizz originally wanted dual pistols for reapers but they scrapped that altogether and gave reapers full time flamethrowers.  That is a possibility now that Blizz confirmed that there won't be photon cannons even though it was in the gameplay demo vid.

[ShoGun]

Actually, in the HD leaked video where the reapers were fighting the soul hunters, just a few of the reapers (1 or 2?) used a flamethrower attack, while everyone else in the back was clearly using their pistols. So I doubt the flamethrower attack is a permanent upgrade that replaces the reaper's pistol attack. Also, why would blizzard replace the dual pistols all together with a flamethrower attack? They might as well just call them fire bats, and state that they were upgraded with jetpacks. But that seems like a bad move to me, I’d rather have something new and exciting to replace the old units for the sequel. Switching firing modes, whether automatically or manually, seems like a good deal to me. Adaptability is one of the terran trademarks after all.

[DKutrovsky]

I agree with shogun on this one, pistol mode & flamethrowed mode ftw

[GuiMontag]

sorry shogun, but the only weapon used by the reapers in that vid is the flamethrower, there is however a group of marines that come into screen at the same time, maybe thats what you were looking at.

[sundance kid]

I'd like to see a more heavy presence of large Napalm fire bombs for the terrans only, more so than just individual units spraying flame such as firebats. It just strikes me as a weapon that should exist.

I was thinking of Napalm bombs being introduced to terran air units to boost their ground attacks but restrict it in the similar vain that mines were restricted on vultures so it would force players to consider the best time to use this strategy.
Or restrict the fire bombs to artillery units (similar to Siege tanks).

[DDDx]

After reading that i kinda got an idea maby like a naplam nuke tyep wepon and when it hits a base it just keeps on burning, and any unit or buliding that gets hit keeps on buring till it dies, and the napalm would stay on the ground for awhile makeing where it hit unbuildable becuase any one who trys to build would burn and die.

eh sounds kinda stupid but id like to see that.

[sundance kid]

Or another idea would be to fix Napalm bombs to missile turrets, bunkers or the Planetary Fortress building to purge your base (or perimeter) of enemy. It could be like a last line of defence if your base gets overrun. It’ll take out your units but also the enemy.

[DKutrovsky]

OOOOORRRRRR, SCV's could build mines that are like that?

Booby trap anyone?

[capthavic]

How about bunkers with spikes that shoot out and skewer melee attackers :D

[Remy]

While I'm not insisting that the flame thrower is a permanent upgrade or that the pistols have been canned, I think you are mistaken about any reapers using pistols in the leaked video.

I am pretty sure every last one of them used flamethrowers.  The sparks coming off of soul hunters from marine's rifle attacks made it a little deceiving at one point but the first one and the last one you see has nothing else blocking you from seeing flames instead of pistol fire.

You can also see how all the reapers try to swarm the soul hunters instead of just using their pistols at range.  Judging from what we saw in the gameplay demo, I would say in that video the pistols had approximately an attack range of 4.  In the leaked vid, you don't see a single reaper try to attack beyond range 2.  That is another clue that all of them had flamethrowers.

Your reasoning is also flawed.  Excitement is little reason for gameplay changes.  The gameplay as a whole will take precedence over wow factor any day.  Again, I am not saying that this is definitely what happened, but Blizzard can easily have decided that pistol firing reapers are too similar to marines and took out pistols altogether.  Earlier everyone thought photon cannons and phase cannons were either two different structures or upgraded structure, but Blizzard later announced that photon cannon has been canned and there will only be phase cannons in the game.

There is not enough detail as of yet to conclude either way.  All of it are valid possibilities right now.

[privateparts]

I agree there is NO way that Reapers are using anything but Flamethrowers, I'm sorry but anyone who can't see that is just deluded.

Personally, I hope it's a universal upgrade that allows weapon switch. Whether the switch is permenate or not I don't know.

[FlyingTiger]

yea I'm thinking there will be a weapons switch. I mean the fire is gonna come from its rockets anyways.. its like some sort of extra attachment ya need.

haha those pistols look soo badass in the concept art.

[i2new@aol.com]

i think the reapers should have a switch attack more where they can use flames like a firebat. I think the use of firebats should never be left out of SC. It kinda sucks now, i just dont see terrans defending off zerg in the start of a match with out firebats. Who eles agrees that reapers and firebats should be one. Terrans must be faster if they plan on not having anti group units to fight early. Also do medics still need a building to be made or are they a first option like the marine??

[FlyingTiger]

Oh in an interview with Dustin Browder (I forgot which one), but they are still considering putting in the firebat so all bets are still on!

[Shadowdragon]

This topic's been done:
http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1398.0
go to page 7-9

And medics need Tech Labs, to answer your question.

[Joneagle_X]

Shadowdragon is correct. We've already covered this issue. I suggested on the other thread that the Reaper be an upgrade to the Firebat in Terran Tier 2. This would keep the Firebat relevant on the battlefield by vastly increasing its mobility.

The main obstacle would be that I don't think it should attack air and most people are against that.

[Lemmy]

But a firebat with jetpacks would be far too brutal against resource gatherers.

[generalrievous]

wtf is with all these firebat threads there must be like 4 of them continue the disscusion in one of the others

[Itsmyship]

Couldn't of said it better myself Greivous! All of a sudden its just one big hippie jam fest over firebats that just sprouted out of nowhere!

[capthavic]

TBH I never never found firebats to be that useful myself. I can see myself using reapers way more.

[Joneagle_X]

That's why I proposed the upgrade for them. It would be a Tier 2 upgrade that would allow them to remain relevant throughout the rest of the game.

Wouldn't you rather drastically improve an older, more tested unit than create a totally new one that may be put by the wayside as well as the Firebat?

[BoydofZINJ]

How many people actually use the firebat in PvP on battlenet in a ladder match in a League? Better yet, how many terrans will use MORE firebats versus marines?

On average I would throw a few firebats out but I would save the gas for tanks, upgrades, and/or BCs.

[Ghost]

But a firebat with jetpacks would be far too brutal against resource gatherers.


Yeah, plus their D8 charges lol.

[Joneagle_X]

Guess what.. they'd ONLY be effective against those workers. The bombs would be their only defense against larger units. This would make them a VERY balanced units and a perfect raider for the Terrans.

Don't tell me you wouldn't use a Firebat if it had jetpacks.

[nortonanti]

I hardly ever used firebats in sc but if it had a jet pack.....

[Inside Sin]

Firebats are great at taking down tanks, workers, etc.

Plus they rock against zergling masses.

They are very powerful with the stimpack to run up to siege units and burn they're asses.
Although, they might be vanquished in Starcraft II, but theres still a posibility.

[LJYLJ]

Inside Sin, what kind of noobs do u play? firebat vs tanks...firebath does 25%dms vs large units, thats 2+2dmg, - the 1tank armor, thats 1+1, 2damage total, so u need only 75shots, and all decent terran players keep vultures with their tank

[Smokiehunter]

I think the fire bats were a very good croud control unit. it could damage multiple zealot shields and could take out many lings at once. but I think they wanted to get terran out of their role as the defenders of starcraft. so they gave them a base raider one that can take out buildings. I do agree that the terrans have too many base raiders now so maby we will see the reaper change roles a bit.

[DKutrovsky]

Firebat > zerglings + zealots + drones > also has more hp than the marine, which makes it a small meanshield early game. Thats all it does, but damn it does it well!

[Smokiehunter]

I loved seeing lings pop as the charged a line of bats :K

[Joneagle_X]

So... if the Reaper was basically a firebat with jetpack that could raid your minerals, and could handle any kind of melee unit but sucked against range, would you think it was imba?

[i2new@aol.com]

Lol if the reaper had a firebat attack mode, they would be a little over the top. I think if they switch into firebat mode they should not be able to use the jet packs because the fuel is being used for there fire attacks while in firebat mode. That sounds fair.

[Joneagle_X]

Wow i2... you should read the whole post next time lol. I was saying that the Reaper WOULD BE a Firebat with a jetpack upgrade.

Not just an attack they switch to.

[Nikzad]

Locked topic.

Please read the forum rules and do NOT create duplicate topics.

Direct all further discussion here:
http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1398.0

[grrrr...]

i dont really like reapers,,,i want my firebat back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when it comes to killin zerglings. what works out better than a sexy firebat...burn them like chickens

[Protosscommander]

PLEASE DO NOT CREATE A DUPLICATE TOPICS. THERE IS ALREADY A TOPIC LIKE THIS.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1398.0

[IO]

Crix please....
Just beacause he isn't a mod isn't any reason for him not to point that rule out.

[BirdofPrey]

Well that statement fits you well then.

GO AWAY ACKBAR

[venado]

Well he thinks hes the authority on everythin its egomaniacal.


Have you a bad day? Cmon man, Protoss Commander is right... we have to help to keep this simple and clear

[Remy]

When you violate forum rules and someone else points it out to you, why does that make you feel the need to attack them.

Please read the forum rules if it somehow upsets you that others are pointing out violations to you. If you don't like that, don't give people a chance to do it by knowing the rules, simple as that.

[SID]

Oh wow... that's sweet... and make sure they explode a damaging death too!

[Protosscommander]

But i guess Terran fire bat is no more now in SC2 ithink :)

[Joneagle_X]

The latest news says they're being tested.....

Hopefully our suggestions will be taken to heart and it will be combined with the Reaper.

[BloodHawk]

I really dislike the reaper/bat comboed unit idea. Various reasons I wont go into (mostly stylistic).

How about leaving the bat off the list as a trained unit, but including it in those ghost drop pods? It would solve the issue of the bats not being able to close gaps to do their proper melee before getting splattered. Might make for a great harassment tool as well. Give ghost options of marine drop/bat drop/mixed drop. This could help make the drop pod skill a bit more useful/dynamic.

Lore could say Terran commanders realized bats sucked and resoc convicts are <edit>better</edit> resourced as marines. However felt it unwise to completely retrain existing bats as marines. After all, that armer is f**kin bolted/welded on.

I see lots of potential holes in my thoughts here. Just wanted to throw out a different idea on this highly debated topic. Feed the flames; if you will.

[moobox]

Bloodhawk that a great idea, and I like how you made the Lore to fit very nicely.

As MUCH as I would want that option for the Ghost, I can't see it coming. Wicked idea though, and I would love for it to happen!

[Joneagle_X]

If you don't combine the Reaper and Firebat in some way (only the attack would be the same) then Terran will have NO melee type splash unit, period. They're also lacking a specific anti-infantry unit that specializes in the task. A base raider would be the perfect candidate to fill this niche as well as another.

It would then become a dual-task unit instead of a specialized one. Not only does it fill a necessary gap for the Terran linuep, but it also diversifies the unit and makes it more useful in a number of situations rather than just one or two. It also perfectly solves the problem of the Firebat's previous weakness due to lack of mobility. With the jump packs they can close distances easily simply by going up a cliff and coming back down.

[Vindicatormsc]

just adding the Firebats to the game will be fine,instead of mixing them with the reapers.the idea of mixing them,i really don't like it.sounds so forced...

and besides,they had great ideas for Firebats in SC:G.they had napalm rockets there,that they could use to hit distant targets.

if they put Firebats in SC2,they should have their normal flamethrower splash attack,and the Napalm Rocket as a somewhat large AOE attack,controlled by a cooldown...

[Joneagle_X]

Why go to the trouble of creating an entirely new unit that is still going to be overly specialized when there's a perfectly good brand new unit sitting there waiting to have an upgrade to let it fill this niche.

I've discussed all this before. Check out the other threads:

Reapers (http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=63.0)

Remy's Concerns. Reaper is mentioned here (http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=2680.0)

[Heavyarms2050]

So who here likes the new firebat model?

[DKutrovsky]

I like it a lot, i wouldnt mind him having a special ability though :)

[Joneagle_X]

Where is this new model?

[DKutrovsky]

here

[Hodl pu]

They Look too huge for my taste. I see them as infantry, not flamethrowing robots

[Joneagle_X]

I see a lot of stuff in those pictures that don't make much sense.

What's with the strange flying toss thing?

[DKutrovsky]

i like it. Make him have 80-90hp and cost 2 supply and i'll be a happy monkey


Edit: jon, its a phase prism, only white.

[Unentschieden]

It would have around 120 HP or more, otherwise the move and size increase wouldn´t make sense. It is almost a mech after all.

[DKutrovsky]

I love it, 120hp probably 2 supply although im hoping for 1.

Great news on the firebat, very pleased indeed. I dont mind him being built from the factory either.

[Heavyarms2050]

they only complaint i have with the firebat is that is arm looks too skinny compare to the rest of his body armor.

[DKutrovsky]

well he really doesnt have arms its almost entirely for the flamethrowers tip where the actual fire comes out,if you take a closer look, which is fine with me, its looking a lot like a goliath with flamethrowers.

[DE.50]

I am not thrilled with the model, I think it looks just a bit strange, I don't really see a human in there for some reason, but I'm glad that they are beefing up the firebat to give it a solid role in the game.

[Thalion]

New firebat actually looks like warriors from Heavy Gear game series. 4 meters tall soldier who is not yet a mech, but not just infantry. And it still fits in bunker! With aprox. 90-100 HP and medium armour (at least 1) may play havoc on all battlefields. Just change flame damage system (in SC it was compulsive damage = pretty weak against medium units and buildings.) It would burn biological units stronger (however, it has similar function to Ghost's Snipe...) Being taller would also allow him to move faster than smaller infantry...

I'm curious that firebat would have
a) infantry upgrades (or vehicles?)
b) stims
c) some additional abilities (i.e. napalm rockets, demolition charges)

[Overling]

Please Thalion, no more unit abilities. If Firebats make a combo with Reapers and Marines, can you imagine the micro demand that there will be? Stim-pack works for all attacking infantry, and medics can go in a different group following the main one, so it is easy to toggle between groups to use this skill.

Reapers usually go alone, as nobody else can follow them, so using their abilities should be easy. Why give the firebat anything else than flamethrowers??

[vinzel]

the reapers are way better, more usefull and cooler than firebats. you can only use firebats at the begining of the game and only against zealots, then are USELESS.
so GO REAPERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thalion]

the reapers are way better, more usefull and cooler than firebats. you can only use firebats at the begining of the game and only against zealots, then are USELESS.
so GO REAPERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well Vinzel, situation has been changed. Now Firebats have remarkable size, and hp and damage will surely fit this theme. Counting still as infantry => healing by medics, and stimpacks, using heavy powered gear => repairing by SCVs (actually just like SCV) and better withstanding heat of battle.
Firebat will be mechanized support, (along with Viking).

Possessing stims by Firebat is now questionable, but... a li'l stim never hurts ;)

[Heavyarms2050]

and if firebats can attack like colossus, then they will be unstopable

[ekulio]

I love the new firebat. The flames look great, and they just look so tough.

Maybe they get built at the factory now to replace the viking? That would be crazy.

[Gasmaskguy]

Yes, they do get built at the Factory, atleast for the moment.

[DKutrovsky]

Dont you guys think its only logical where the firebats are right now?

Its a strictly melee designed unit. So what was the problem with that in sc1? It dies too fast.

Solution? Make it bigger and stronger, which is what it is right now.

Having anything between 80 and 120 hp, with probably 1 initual armor being able to get healed by medics will prove to be quite the meatshield, and since there is no more concussive damage they will work good vs all units(have you noticed that terran was the only race that had that damage, firebat, vulture, ghost?).

I just want to know price, supply, and if its going to be the first unit( so that nuclear reactors will allow spamming them).

[Gasmaskguy]

I am 99.99587% postitive about Firebats using reactors. Siege Tanks occupy the second slot in the Factory, and Cobras the third. You get ST after getting the tech lab add-on, and Cobras after getting Armory and/or tech lab. So, Firebats will be the first Factory unit, making it early tier 2, I guess.

*EDIT* w00t 1111 posts!

[DKutrovsky]

Thats great, so you can have them about the same time as vultures.

This is great.

Now if you're planning on going through infantry the transitions to mech is much easier.

You build a barracks, get a nuc. reactor. pump up some marines, build factory, lift off factory, put it on the nuc reactor, make tech lab > start medics > mass up some firebats, when you have a decent number switch factory and barracks so you can get up some tanks and what not and keep on building production buildings afterwards.

Great strategies!!!!!!!

[TerranGod]

the firebats look destructive now

in sc1, it looked...weak after the first 15 minutes

but now...

these firepowered crackups now look destructive and fearful!!!

RAAAAAWR!!!!

[Gasmaskguy]

Yep. SC1 Firebats were useful tier 1 to 2, while the SC2 Firebats look like they will be used from tier 2 to 3. Marines got shields and U-238 shells to survive tier 2-3, but Firebats will probably make it just fine without any upgrades('cept stim).

[Chax424]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30MBljXxg3M


you know that half of those units have seen been scrapped...?

Someone confirmed that Firebats would be in the editor, I doubt they would remove that.

[DKutrovsky]

tempest was a carrier replacement, and it was basically the same unit.

Soul Hunter was just a huge mistake.

Firebat is a old unit that imo is here to stay.

[ekulio]

I must say I LOVE the new firebat. I was wondering how they were gonna make it not look stupid and they did a really good job (as usual...Blizzard never ceases to amaze) The flames look great. I hope the animation and sfx are to match.

[DKutrovsky]

Indeed, do you think they take one or 2 supply?

[Gasmaskguy]

My guess is 2. :)
Look at them. They are twice as big as Marines.

[DKutrovsky]

you could argue the same about a hydra.
Its still just one dude inside. i expect a $$ increase, but imo keep it 1 supply

[Gasmaskguy]

How can you argue the same about the hydra? The hydra was not twice the size of marines in SC1, just a little bigger, and we haven't even seen them in SC2...

[DKutrovsky]

look at this and tell me the hydra aint at least 2x bigger than a marine

[Gasmaskguy]

Ok, I agree with you they are about twice the size of Marines.
But we should not really compare Zerg with Terran.
The reason Hydras only take 1 supply is because Zerg is about massing.
Also, Zergling=0.5 supply. Hydras are twice as big as Zerglings, and cost 1 supply. See? :P

The Firebat has lots of hp now, and is twice as big as marines. They are even built from Factories! Keeping them at 1 supply would be imba, it would be like a BC that takes up 4 supplies.

[DKutrovsky]

well, its still the old firebat, i dont see how it should suddently turn into a fattie 2 supply unit :P

if they make into 2 supply it should have 100+ hp

[Gasmaskguy]

You just wait! :P I bet 10 minerals that it'll be 2 supplies. :D
You in? Looser sends the other 10 mins. ^_^

[ShasOkais]

didn't someone mention that flamethrowers on reapers were a bit too cheap?

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1891.msg47548#msg47548

#10

[DKutrovsky]

you're on

[ekulio]

Hydralisks are way bigger than marines. According to lore they're like 8-10 meters long.

I say firebats are gonna cost two supply. I hope they do. More supply cost means more power. I mean look at them...look at the flames... the new firebats just scream total ownage.

[hydralisk]

reapers dont fricken shot flames

[DKutrovsky]

your point being?

[Thalion]

IMO Firebats will take two supply. Its size now is around Goliath class... But who cares as long as burning is going well ;)

[DKutrovsky]

Im not going to die in agony if they end up being 2 supply ,its not really that big of a deal. But i just dont see the logic behind it, its still the old firebat.

Anywhoo, as long as they are big, have good hp and tear things up i dont care

[Overling]

Man, I personally thought that the return of the firebat in the factory, instead of the Predator SO FREAKIN COOOL! OMG! The Firebat got a buff that made it a replacement for the Goliath in ground reinforcement. And c'mon, it looks so Badass! The terrans are now officially ready to hit the market, in terms of unit choices. Just tune the damn Nomad and everything is settled! (But for the Nomad we need figure what the zergs do, right?)

As to supply and cost, I think whatever the balancing team decides is just fine.

[DKutrovsky]

I dont think the Thor is ready nor is the Cobra.

[Overling]

Well, now that the Goliath is gone, there's no good ground-to-air damage anymore. Thor could be made to hit air. It's huge range would suffice to reach air-crafts. If Thor gets to hit air AoE, then Goliath's role would be entirely reoccupied.

[Gasmaskguy]

I played with that thought too, Overling. :)
But I came to the conclusion that it's too slow. Air units would lol at it and fly away. They could even fly above it in a circle, making the Thor spin around.... Humiliating :D

[DKutrovsky]

I want the Thor to have good GtG attack, and long range, big cooldown AoE flak or missles.

Than i'll be happy.

I dont even know what the cobra should be. I dont find it too necessary.

[Overling]

Yeah, but how about anti-carriers?? Carriers are both slow and rely on their huge range for being safe. If Thor's range can hit them, and they're not that fast to escape, his skill hitting air would be a good weapon against Carriers, a unit that I don't suppose to be easily killed by any of Terran current air.

Imagine the following situation: a few carriers, phoenixes and warp-rays are outside of your base and outta reach (an air based Protoss). But the enemy's carriers are still reaching inside your base with their interceptors, killing you from a safe distance. If you go with Vikings, the Phoenixes will overcharge you and they're goners. Warp-rays will target the BCs from faraway, and I don't suppose you will have that many BCs to 'Yamato-gun' the carriers out. What you do? Thor!

A Thor could smack the stacked enemies and eventually kill the Carriers. Its AoE would kill any interceptors nearby. And its armor would make interceptor damage useless so Carriers wouldn't be able to fight back. A genuine counter. Even tho other units can escape it, Thor could take care of Carriers. Couldn't it?

[Gasmaskguy]

@DK. The Cobra WAS kinda unecessary, but with its slowing attack, it's unique and brings up a lot of different tactics for Terran players who want to put a different kind of distance between the enemys melee/short ranged and his own ranged units.

@Overling. You want anti-carriers? Mass Vikings.

[Overling]

Few Phoenixes w/ Overcharge>Mass vikings

If you say they can be microed to escape the Overcharge by landing, the Phoenixes can be also microed to not trigger all overcharges at same time, and save some for the lag period between overcharges in which the Vikings could attack. There's no use: BCs and Vikings are balanced against Warp-rays and Phoenixes. Carriers are not on their diet unless you take carriers alone. But as there are counters to mass-vikings, we need something to fight back the carriers that actually could deal with them before getting killed.

Carriers can kill from afar. We need something that can do the same. And Yamato fits situations where the carriers are dispersed, not escorted by tons of ships.

[Gasmaskguy]

Eeerr.. we are discussing a carrier counter, not a unit that counters a unit but survives its own counter, lol.
In that case; Siege Tanks suck. Period. Because I want it to be a zealot counter, but ANOTHER unit, called the Immortal, can counter Siege Tanks with ease. Boohoo.
Vikings ARE Carrier counters, and if you start involving other units, I can too. Marines would pwn rays and phoenixes due to their weak AtG/anti-small-units attacks. After that, the Vikings would rape the Carriers. Terran win. (Without using BC!!! :o 8))
:P

[Overling]

Nah, I won't discuss this. I can't say what would happen in a game that's not even released, but believe-me that Vikings ain't a counter to carriers. You'll see! ;D

[Gasmaskguy]

What I'll see is a bunch of Vikings benefiting greatly from their damage bonus against capital/big ships.
Also, Vikings are something like tier 2.5 and a LOT cheaper, so by the time the enemy gets 6 carriers loaded with intersceptors, you'll have about 15-30 Vikings....

[Overling]

Which will be slaughtered also way before you get carriers by Phoenixes, meaning you will have actually 2-3 vikings inside the safety of your base. ^_^

[Gasmaskguy]

No, cause the "Uber-Phoenixes" you are talking about would get killed by a bunch of tier 1 units. (marines)
Also, wtf? We are discussing Carrier vs Viking, not Protoss vs Terran.
Stop bringing in other units. You said that you want a unit that counters Carriers. I said Viking. The Viking DO counter Carriers. End of story.

[Quanta]

Vikings are an inadequate AA fighter. Their AA capabilities are similar to the wraith, good against capital ships but not good against large numbers of smaller ships.

Kill the firebat. Remove it from the game for good, put the Viking back in the factory and give the Terran a decent AA fighter.

Sure, Vikings can counter carriers but they can't counter carriers with phoenix support. That's the key right there. A good player doesn't just make one type of unit for heaven's sake, that makes their fleet vulnerable. The terran have no air counter to Phoenixes. You say ground will do the job of countering Phoenixes, but carriers and mother ships will destroy the ground units. All a player would have to do is keep their Phoenixes out of the fray while the captial ships fight and only bring them in to counter enemy air.

The Terran desprately need something to, at least partialy, match the Phoenix. Besides, the firebat, even after its makeover really isn't that useful of a unit in this new thing we call SC2 where molbility is everything. Sure, they'll be good at countering zerglings and zealots, and probably do a real number against marines and medics. The problem is that's all they'll be really good at killing. I know this because that's all firebats in SC1 were good at killing, a hit point boost won't change that.

What the Terran need more than an extra infantry unit is a better AA unit. I don't care what warm fuzzy feelings you have for firebats. Some units have to be cut for there to be new units and having a return of all the terran infantry with no new additions would be boring. That's why they got cut in the first place. Now because fans whine about their beloved firebats they bring them back even though that's probably not the best thing for game play. Don't be suprised if they get cut again

It is just a simple fact that the firebat isn't a necessary unit while a replacement for the Valkary is.

[Heavyarms2050]

i still with the idea of giving the cobras the ability to attack w/ AoE on air units

[Quanta]

ground based AA have a disadvatage compared to air based AA. Air units can easily avoid a ground based AA unit unless it is stationed in a place as defense, like missile turrets in a base. They are not good at actively searching for and attacking enemy fleets as air can simply move away from ground units, especially on maps with alot of difficult terrain. The only real solution is to have an air based AA unit so that it can match the mobility of other air units.

[Heavyarms2050]

I dont ask why its lego, i just found these on the internet
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/APC/img_2649web.jpg
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/APC/img_2654web.jpg

it has superior anti air weaponry and can transport ground unit but no vehicles. No ground attack but any unit inside can attack through the window.This is my idea of a mobile bunker

OR

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jehkay/AAA/img_0422web.jpg

it has superior anti air weaponry and its effective against infantry

[Remy]

Well said Quanta, bringing back the firebat is a bad move, at least from what it looks like at the moment. Not that the firebat isn't already an overspecialized unit to begin with, the worst thing about it is that it has a hand in taking away one of the best things that happened to Terran, viking at factory.

While it's not the only reason why the firebat is a bad idea, and it isn't the sole reason behind bumping viking up to starport tech, it's still partially responsible and that much worse of a move. While having a tier 2 ground unit that can transform into an air unit for added mobility and AA is awesome, there is nothing special about a tier 3 air unit that can transform into a ground unit. Blizzard took one of the best new ideas they came up with, hacked it to pieces, and took a steamy crap on it.

Since Quanta already provided very good reasons why the firebat is a bad idea, I'm just coming at it from a different angle. Viking at factory is way more important than having the firebat back. Firebat really isn't worth it even if the viking wasn't effected anyway. I see some people happy about the firebat's return and how they would love it because it would have this and that much HP.

People need to realize that the firebat didn't suck outside of early-game because it didn't have high enough HP or armor, it was because it was overspecialized by design. It ain't gonna help the overspecialization problem any if it costs more food and resources. Higher HP and/or armor would just be to justify the added cost, it's still not any better, not to mention a higher liability factor and coming out later in the game.

I'm surprised how positively some people are taking this. There was many possible ways for Blizzard to address Terran's anti-infantry issue, but this is perhaps the worst one. If nothing else, it's at least the least original route they could've taken. All the while wreaking havoc on the rest of SC2 Terran design that was actually good. It isn't too reassuring when Blizzard starts adding old units back in at the price of killing new, fresh, original design ideas. Yeah, we really waited 10 years to play an old game rehashed on new technology, right. For anyone who actually wants that, go play Super Mario emulated on the PC, it'll probably be a more satisfying experience anyway.

[Unentschieden]

Having the Firebat at the factory wouldn´t be so bad if:
1.Viking stayed there.
2.The Firebat got some "role-enhancement".

As it looks now the Firebat is even more specialized than before. I hope IF it comes (it was implemented after fan demand), it gets a role rehershal like the Ghost.

[Overling]

Yeah, looking from that point, I really loved the Viking on the factory also, and for the very same reason Remy pointed out. A ground unit that can upgrade to air is brilliant.

But I still wanna discuss one point: if Zealots are melee units and can be made useful through the entire game, can't firebats too? If there aren't a lot of same-tier stuck units, are the tier-crossing units still gonna be that special? I still think they would be somehow, like using marines range limits against them with a Colossus in example.

But I agree that Firebats, although cool, are merely a counter to mass melee units. And in late game they might loose space.

I'm still hoping that Firebats are faster and smaller than Vikings. Why not put it into the Barracks too? Crowding the Barracks wouldn't be that bad, it would end up increasing the early game possibilities for Terrans even more.

[darkone]

if your playing terran and your enemy is using small melee units then firebats are your best counter zealots get raped by just a few firebats

[Overling]

Exactly, but Marines with HP and range upgrades and Medics could do the same perhaps. Why creating yet another unit for the same role? Marines can Focus-fire, suitable for strong units. Firebats cannot focus, but are suitable for many weaker units. And Ghosts could be suitable for even less, stronger units (snipe) or even more units (nuke), depending on the situation.

My bet is that they're making these apparently crazy changes to suit the inclusion of the Zerg. We are not seeing what they have in store, but perhaps the Zerg early game makes it worthy to have Firebats nearby, who knows?

[ekulio]

Look how big the AOE is on the new firebat...just LOOK at it...I'm really not worried about the firebat being useful at all. I'm sure I will use it quite a bit.

[Quanta]

Overling you make a good point about the Zerg. It may be that a firebat will have a much expanded role to counter many more Zerg units than before. I suppose in that regard, it may be inappropriate to condem the firebat outright. However, that does not change the problems of moving the Viking to the starport and killing off the Terran's new AA fighter. Now if the Firebat and Viking can coexist in the factory and the Terran get the Valkary replacement they desprately need then that would not be so bad. It may be an even better idea to put the Firebat back into the Barracks so it will be on roughly the same tier as zealots and zerglings. You can have it upgrade to a tier two caliber unit so that it stays viable.

Granted, if you do this you would probably need to trash the marine upgrades as I have a feeling they were originally ment to make up for the loss of the firebat. If the firebat isn't gone I see no need for these upgrades. It could then open up some other type of upgrade for the marine. The only problem is what to do with the fact that the Terran would have an extra unit. If no problems arise with the Terran having an extra unit then this is acceptable. It certainly is better than what exists now.

[Overling]

I was hoping that the air AoE would be taken by the Thor, so its role would become different, as the only heavy GTA terrans would have.

Well, I suppose the shields' upgrade could remain there for one reason: the main difference between this upgrade and getting firebats would be the way they attack. I was hoping that Firebats could require a factory, but be made from Barracks.
This way the Barracks would have multiple ways of working:
- Build a reactor and get extra Marines;
- Build a tech-lab and get Medics;
- Build a tech-lab and get Ghosts;
- Build a factory and get Firebats;
- Only use it as a step to get Merc-haven and get Reapers, which would go well with the reactor option.

Even tho you have no early alternative to getting Marines as defense, this would soon be compensated by a huge diversity in units.

[DKutrovsky]

you guys forget that the firebat no longer has concussive damage, which was what limited his usefulness.

So was his low hp, he'll be tougher and dealing more damage, still being healed by the medic.

[Heavyarms2050]

firebats are essential for the terrans because their going to be the major support and meat shield unit the ground unit. With the zealots upgraded dash attack, marines will be minced without the firebats being in the frontline taking the blows. With the siege tank sieging a bases, it would be helpful to have a firebats nearby to defend against swarming melee units.

[Overling]

The discussion is not whether a unit will be useful or not. It is not about if it could be used in game, but if it is needed, if it can't be replaced by another current one. If it has a strict role, and another more versatile unit can fulfill it, there wouldn't be a point in keeping it in the game, would it?

We're arguing whether the Firebat can have a role in the strategy.

@ Heavyarms: However, if Marines with shield upgrades can kill more effectively the Zealots with focus-fire, and still last as long as firebats, why even add firebats in the game? Saying that Firebats can be meat-shields doesn't justify their presence, as now marines possibly could too. There's still open room for interaction with the zergs, and thus we cannot judge so fast. But talking about zealots, M&Ms could be balanced to be enough against them.

[Heavyarms2050]

i know this is stupid and will never happen, but what if firebats can attack air units. Will it useful now or still be useless because the firebats have to run near the air unit to attack and the air unit can just maneuver away

[DKutrovsky]

Firebats will have nice AoE, and will take care of Zerglings and zealots much easier than marines would, they may be cheaper than vikings and get more hp per resource point than marines, they'll 99.9% have more armor than them.

Just because a unit can take damage doesnt mean he's a tank. The firebat will mostly likely have hp in vacinity of ~100, with a medic and 1 armor, thats a strong meat shield that deals AoE melee damage and has Stim pack and maybe something else, and doesnt cost much gas or minerals(i assume)

[freedom23]

the firebat is probably one of the easiest ways to get rid of zerglings and zealots but dont you think that the terrans already have enough ground units at their disposal?? adding the fact that the ghost is now a 1.5 tier.. im just puzzled at how are they gonna get this done..

are they really sure that theyll bring back the firebat for final?? IMO maybe its just a better idea if they upgrade the marine a research to choose its weaponry like the BC, either gauss or flamethrowers.. but to think of it the terran academy will provide availability to the medic right?? and now that they brought back the firebats this means that they also will be the product of the academy, do the ghost come from the academy to?? or is it like the raider with a different prerequisite structure....

IMHO firebats rather should be the alternate weapon for the marines or ground vikings..

[Chax424]

I hate to say this, becasue I was a fan of the Firebat (still am) but it seems life would be easier for everyone if they just kept it the way it was:
Vikings at the Factory
Firebats in the editor, not in the game.
As of right now things seem to be getting over-complicated.
The main complication/problem is the viking is still in the Starport. I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but an air unit that can become a ground unit is not very useful. By the time you have a Starport you will be able to build all sorts of ground units, all of em most likely (depending on the Thor's requirements, and if its still in the game.)
As it is now, the Viking at the Starport seems to nullify its purpose.
In my oh, so-humble-opinion, I think the Viking should return, and the Barracks should be kept as it (since the Terrans in a sense have the Reaper to replace the Firebat, thought they serve a different purpose, Ill be interested to see how they fare against Zelots.)
In the mean time, the Terrans need a new Starport unit, personally I was fine with the Preadotor.
I am at a loss to see why Blizzard changed them.
If it aint broke...
...then again maybe it was broke.

[Overling]

It would be easier to argue what to put in the Starport, if we knew what the Predator's role was. Lets check again what the Starport has:

- Dropships;
After tech-lab:
- Banshees;
- Nomads;
After Deep-space relay:
- Battlecruisers.

If Vikings don't go there, what use would there be for a reactor add-on? Spawning Drop-ships? Why?

However, there are already 4 units made there, why have a 5th, when factory currently has 3? It could be best to share, and make Vikings, Firebats, Siege-tanks and Cobras from the Factory too. Cobras and Firebats would benefit from a reactor, while Vikings and Siege-tanks would require a tech-lab.

But doing that, Terrans wouldn't have much anti-air, would they? Besides BCs, a Starport that doesn't make anti-air units... weird huh?

[NateSMZ]

The Terrans simply need a new air unit to replace the Predator, yeah it would be 5 units but 2 of them are support... Vikings def need to go back to the Factory

and the Firebat looks cool and all... but it just doesn't seem to fit.... doesn't make sense to have infantry coming from a Factory and there's no real need for the Firebat... yeah it's good for close range ground fights, but the real need for that is early game and if it's in the Factory that nullifies its usefulness right there... the Reaper is just a more interesting concept.... the Terrans have been cutting back all across the board to be less expensive, so just let the Firebat go as not being cost effective

[Chax424]

...


Thats a fair point.
I think we can all agree that the Terrans need a Wraith equivilent.
Right now they have no solid air to air fighter, which wont do at all. The closest they have is the Viking, but I doubt that it was designed for that role.

[Overling]

I suppose the Viking was indeed designed as the primary air unit for Terrans. Making other air units support for Vikings made the game extremely smooth, in terms of tech. I was thinking about keeping the Firebat, make it from Barracks but require factories to do so, move Vikings to Factories and bring back Predator to Starport. Maybe I'll post my idea for it in another topic, but it goes sort of like this:

A unit that either moves and attacks fast but does few damage, and when in interceptor mode looses the ability to move in order to hit twice as fast. This way, the Predator would be a counter to swarms of weak air units, such as scourges, but still be unable to hit strong armored air such as BCs. It would have a long cooldown to change, just like a siege-tank. I'll search for an idea like this and open up a thread if I don't find it.

[DE.50]

I don't understand how people can think that the Viking won't be an anti-air unit. You guys have no idea about the damage, the type of attack, the speed of attack, or the health of the viking. You are all speculating on what you thought about the Viking before it got moved to the Starport. Blizzard will make sure to adjust its stats so that it will fill the role that Blizzard has made for it.

[Overling]

The problem is not if Viking fits there, it is that it fits better as an earlier ground unit capable of becoming airborne. ;)

[Chax424]

I don't understand how people can think that the Viking won't be an anti-air unit. You guys have no idea about the damage, the type of attack, the speed of attack, or the health of the viking. You are all speculating on what you thought about the Viking before it got moved to the Starport. Blizzard will make sure to adjust its stats so that it will fill the role that Blizzard has made for it.


The speculations are made around the fact that it would be silly to give the Terrans primary AA flyer a ground mode.

[ekulio]

Can't the Viking be built at the factory and then the air mode upgrade be researched at the starport instead? Makes sense and problem solved.

[freedom23]

Now thats the proper idea.. to put through.. the vikings definitely should go back to the factory and have the flight ability once the starport is built...

anyways back to the firebat.. im still against its presence and just want it to be a weapon upgrade for marines to choose between u-238 shells or flamethrower

[Overling]

Why not having more unit variety? Choosing upgrades individually would be bothersome. Better keep the choice to the production method and create some difficulty in attaining the Firebat. Allowing to choose the weapon after they are made would be too easy.

@ freedom & Ekulio: this could be feasible. AND would further compensate players that choose Reapers as raiders. Air-vikings were just too easy to attain, and getting Reapers will be a greater deal if the Viking air ability is left for later. Terran players getting Reapers would get a raiding mechanism much sooner than the ones that decide to go for the Vikings, by your way. I like it! ;)

[DKutrovsky]

Viking from factory limits its uses of taking damage, because it cant be healed and probably costs a good deal of resources. I dont think it will be effective vs zerg for the same reason goliaths werent a good choice.

Goliath and Vulture gone from the factory.
Vulture handled zealots and infantry, goliath was anti air. Solution, Viking for anti air > starport, Firebat from factory > infantry and good tanker since he can be healed by medics

Ghost is more of a caster,cant be massed to effectively counter zealots and zerglings.

[ekulio]

DKutrovsky, I don't understand your post.

The Devs probably decided the viking should go to the starport so that the Terran don't get air units quite so early, but the problem is that you get it too late then so the Viking's ground mode suffers.

An air unit that can land is ok...a ground unit that can fly is awesome.

[DKutrovsky]

Maybe thats it, its too early, and too powerful to get from the factory.

You can mass up a good amount of Vikings and just fly in someone's base not needing dropships or anything, and they are not as combat weak as reapers, reapers are only effective if they dont get hit. Vikings is a complete combat unit.

I think they moved it to the Starport for a few reasons:

1. Being what i said, overpowered in terms of time you get it. (Its ground form is still powerful, you get great Anti-air, but you get a Goliath if there isnt any Air enemy)
2. Not good enough to take on infatry units like zerglins, zealots,marines. Maybe its not good enough at taking damage, being armored and what not.
3. The firebat might have worked great the way it is right now, so they wanted to put in the game, and they are currently trying to see how that will work out when its built from the factory instead of the barracks(maybe its too strong to be made from the factory) And the firebat will be able to take more damage with medics than just vikings, so its a better unit to support the siege tank on the ground.

[ekulio]

You can mass up a good amount of Vikings and just fly in someone's base not needing dropships or anything,

That's why I say you should get the air form later, but the ground form is fine coming out of the factory. It's just a Goliath without missle launchers until you get the air upgrade, which won't come to early if it has to be researched at the starport.


2. Not good enough to take on infatry units like zerglins, zealots,marines. Maybe its not good enough at taking damage, being armored and what not.

This is the part I don't understand. Wouldn't "being armored and what not" make it more effective at taking damage?

[Overling]

Vikings deal extra damage to light armored units. This means they take the ground from any infantry unit (including Zealots) when they arrive. Thus, it is a clear and smooth way to tech if you get Vikings in the factory and make them flying when getting the Starport. A natural, logical succession of units.

Flying vikings are an all purpose unit, able to attack both ground and air, able to be ground or air, and with the best mobility. So generic that surpasses the Hydra as multi-purpose unit.

But as I just said that Vikings should beat any other infantry, perhaps they beat Firebats too. However, I still defend the Firebat: it might not win against a Viking in a fight, but fare better than he does in certain situations.

[ekulio]

Agreed, however Vikings and Firebats serve two different purposes. Firebats have shorter range, but do AOE attack, and are healed by medics, and by the look of things are probably almost as tough. I don't think Vikings are neccesarily the most logical choice in all situations. Furthermore, they are not at all more generic than hydras or marines or stalkers. The need to be an air unit to attack air units and to be a ground unit to attack ground units is just as much of a disadvantage as it is an advantage. Vikings can't attack tanks from safe above like a mutalisk/gaurdian/banshee/battlecruiser/warp ray/carrier/mothership nor can they attack phoenixes/scourge from safely below like a hydralisk/stalker/cobra/marine.

[Overling]

Agreed, however Vikings and Firebats serve two different purposes.

Glad you agree, but why 'however'? You just said the same I did:

But as I just said that Vikings should beat any other infantry, perhaps they beat Firebats too. However, I still defend the Firebat: it might not win against a Viking in a fight, but fare better than he does in certain situations.


Also:

I don't think Vikings are neccesarily the most logical choice in all situations.
I wasn't making a comparison. I was only pointing out that Viking is a natural smooth succession, very differently than it was choosing between Goliaths and Wraiths. Now you get "Goliath", and upgrade it to "Wraith", all in the same unit.

And to the last part, dude, I never said it was equal to any unit or unoriginal. I said it is multi-purpose, and it is. It can attack anywhere, it can be everywhere. All other air-units can't be ground units, and all other ground units cannot be air-units. Vikings can be both. That's multi-purpose above all else.

[ekulio]

I guess I just misunderstood you then.

I think an air unit that can attack ground and air without having to land is much more multipurpose than a Viking. It's not quite as much of a jack knife unit as everyone thinks.

[DKutrovsky]

Vikings being armored units will take A BUNCH of extra damage from units designed to kill armored units. The thing is +damage to armored units is more, like, a tank does 50+50 to armored units, whereas a viking will do 10 and maybe +10 to light units see where im going?

Biggest advantage of the firebat is his ability to get healed by the medic this will increase his lifespan by A LOT.

They may deal extra damage to light units, but the firebat will still manage that job better.

The Vikings' weakness as mech form is ground dedicated units like tanks, stalkers etc. Its not meant to be a ground superiority unit, it can do it, but there are units who do it better, such as a firebat.

[Chax424]

Well that seems like a good thing to me.
Every unit needs a solid counter, and we've all seen that Tanks utterly destroy Vikings.
Also, for the record, SCV's still have the rapair ability right? Well then that could up the Viking lifespan by a wee bit, eh?

And Firebats...I duno. I've heard some persuasive stuff, but I just don't see 'em fitting back in to the new Terran arrangement.
They don't seem necessary.
I guess I need to see a game of Terran vs Protoss and see what a rush looks like. We don't really know how Marines and Reapers will fare against Zelots, theyre my main concern.

[DKutrovsky]

Not just zealots, you have dark templar, high templar (psy storm will still own marines/reapers), Twilight archons, colossus(firebats wont die as easy from these).

And god knows what the zerg will have.

[Chax424]

yes but by that point Terran players will have more units avalible.
Im just talking about early game.
The Terrans need a way they can counter rushes and execute their own.
Off hand I think the Cobra will tear up Zelots.

[Overling]

Oh yeah, Cobras are meant to counter melee ground units. They're the ones who will rape Zealots. And if they keep their anti-armor damage, Stalkers too. Cobras might end up as anti-Protoss units. But if you think about it, Firebats are not a rush-able unit. Terran rushes require Marines, as they are the first units available.

[hillzagold]

so uh, how does firebat compare to archon?

[Chax424]

...


I was just compaing it to SC, where you rushed with Marines and Firebats.
In SC2, yea, no Firebat rushes.
and yes, I agree with you about the Cobra


so uh, how does firebat compare to archon?


Off the top of my head Id say the Firebat may be a bit weaker, but then again they have AoE attacks dont they. Different purposes. In a dual, my money would be on the Archon.
Again, I can only compare it to SC though, were the Archons were somewere around Tank and Goliaths.

[hillzagold]

firebat replaces goliath now though.

personally, i think archon would still be a bit stronger, but since you have to make templars and then fuse them, firebats might be cheaper or faster to make.

[Overling]

I'm not sure if Firebats now replace the Goliath, as Vikings can do Goliath's job. Goliath's were about single unit damage, and anti-air fire. So far, ground-anti-air is still missing. Firebat could be an alternative to getting vikings, in which Marines would remain useful as main field anti-air.

In this sense they would be in the same position as Goliaths used to be. But I don't know if they can really tank that much.

[hillzagold]

....bloody hell


of course goliath's role isn't taken over by firebat, but it's spot it taken.

goliath and wraith had similar roles anyways. viking replaces them both.
before you start talking about flying and cloak, that was given to the banshee.

[Overling]

I only mentioned the ground-anti-air. And I stick with it. Not so sure if Cobras can do it so effectively. That's why I'm the only person who wants the Thor skill to be AoE vs. air and not ground. Anyway, I see the Firebat as merely an alternative to ground Vikings.

Firebats could be launched by drop-pods, in theory, and work better with Ghosts and Medics. Vikings are a good transition to Starport units, once it starts to fly, getting them as back-up. Looking at the terran tech-tree, if you wanna build Reapers and goto Covert Ops., Firebat might be better, imo. While if you wanna get to air and get BCs, you might wanna build preferentially Vikings and get air, since its halfway to BCs.

That's how I see them working. After all, Special Ops. is in a totally different direction from Thor or Deep Space relay. Those are clearly the 3 terran tech-paths, just like the Protoss also have 3: Templars, Air and Robots. Even if ultimately you get acquire all three and combine them.

Since they're making teching smooth, they might add the Firebat as a connection of the 'Ghost-branch' to the other two.

[ekulio]

I wish firebats were built at Barracks. How else am I sposed to counter zealot rushes? Marines and Reapers will get shredded. Especially with that charge ability.

[Gasmaskguy]

Charge is a tier 2 or 3 upgrade, and the new bunkers have more hp, and the CC can be upgraded into a Planetary Fortress... so Zealot rushes will be balanced.

[ekulio]

Well, that is helpful. Didn't know that thanks.

[Thalion]

Well, I'd rather see Vikings in Factory than in Starport. Look, it's nice because it versatile. It's raider > So, you should mass it > It shouldn't be expensive > It should be litlle weaker - so no primary terran airfighter... air mode is for moving and bypassing enemy defences.

Of course, Firebat may be produced in Barracks, but it means that barracks are able to produce five types of units... why not in Factory 1st slot?

EDIT:
hey, how about Reapers from Starport :PPP

[Gasmaskguy]

Firebat+rax=5 rax units? Marine, Medic and Ghost makes 3, not 4. Did you get the Reaper mixed up?

[Thalion]

Right, I've forgot that reapers come from that ridiculous 'Merc Haven'... Prison, should be...

[Heavyarms2050]

there is no sense into build a building just to make a single unit

[Gasmaskguy]

By building the haven, you gain access to the Covert Ops...
So it's not just a unit producer, it opens up new tech.

[Overling]

And its not ridiculous. They've undergone re-socialization programs. If they needed to be in prisons, they wouldn't be controllable either. It is nice that they appear in a Merc-haven, looking like a bar. I like the notion that they're dangerous humans under a thin control, but controlled. Setting prisoners free in a war would be like suicide. I say NO to prisons and YES to Merc Haven!

And it needs to be a secondary building because too many reapers can be made at one time. Their limiting factor of how many can be spawn is the number of Merc havens. For each Merc haven you get instant 4 Reapers when buying them, no building time required. That's what is great about it.

[ShasOkais]

Suicide you say? Since firebats die a fiery death why shouldn;t they harm their enemies surrounding them in the process?

Was I in the middle of something ;D...

[ekulio]

Aren't a lot of the marines criminals too?

[Gasmaskguy]

Yes, they are. I think that ALL of them are, actually. The ones that aint criminals sits in Vikings and Siege Tanks etc.
Btw... Is the Firebat a criminal too?

[ijffdrie]

no, blizz said it changed from 90% criminals to 50%

[NateSMZ]

They've undergone re-socialization programs. If they needed to be in prisons, they wouldn't be controllable either. It is nice that they appear in a Merc-haven, looking like a bar. I like the notion that they're dangerous humans under a thin control, but controlled. Setting prisoners free in a war would be like suicide. I say NO to prisons and YES to Merc Haven!

"Potential marines who prove too intractable even after resocialization are instead sent to the "Icehouse" in the Torus system, where reapers are trained." - SOURCE: Official Starcraft II site.

Reapers are in fact not resocialized. They represent criminals who the resocialization programs will not work on. Reapers are controlled under the threat of brutal force and the far-off promise of potential freedom. They are not, and should not, be controlled with parole-style temporary freedom, perks of any kind or positive reinforcement in general. Reapers follow orders because they don't want to die... that's it. So yes, they should be housed in a prison setting, not a bar.

"Reaper troopers are chemically altered to make them even more aggressive before being subjected to weeks of brutal training in close-quarters combat and the use of their jet packs. A reaper who survives two years of duty is granted a full pardon and freed, his debt to society fully paid. In five years of service, the Reaper Corps has yet to have a single trooper survive more than six months." - SOURCE: Official Starcraft II site.

[Overling]

Yeah, this lore they made up sure is dubious. I mean, for Marines they meant that they were on front but undergone re-socialization, and for Reapers they wanted to make them even more scary. But that creates a dilemma, of how would they even obey your commands.

My bet is that they created these "scary" profiles so the players wouldn't feel so guilty to spend Marines so easily. Making them "evil" would take away the moral dilemma of throwing them into certain death. Reapers then, as even more sure of death and even more spendable, would be the criminal beyond the point of no return. And that is settled by the fact that you know Marines are gonna die but you don't want them to, and it can sometimes be avoided. Reapers are suicidal fighters that go into the enemy base and might never make it back, with even less odds than Marines.

To me, that's what caused them to make these profiles.

Barracks, as shown in the Marine video, are some sort of prison. The Marine is set free while getting his armor on and goes directly into the battlefield. Reapers could be inside there just the same way.

[Thalion]

By building the haven, you gain access to the Covert Ops...
So it's not just a unit producer, it opens up new tech.


I don't understand why Merc Haven should allow you to build Covert Ops... Purposes of these buildings have nothing common - Merc Haven is about training and equiping criminals, where Covert Ops is devoted to secret tactics and special agents - Ghosts, psionically gifted humans...

Another thing is that gamers don't like buildings like Citadul of Adun (imho best analogue to Merc Haven), which has only one upgrade in it and allowed you to build Templars Archives...

[LxMike]

the Reaper Corps has yet to have a single trooper survive more than six months[/b]." - SOURCE: Official Starcraft II site.


yeah and a Marine have a average life or 6 secondes...

[Overling]

Yeah. They really do last very little. I remember Marines as the crappiest unit in SC1. It really is funny how they pumped up its image for SC2. It's like promoting a game by making the lamest unit look very cool.

[LxMike]

well I won't say lame

as

Marine + SCV = bunker rush
Marine + Firebat = counter zergling rush
Marine + Medic = counter hydralisk, muta
Marine + Ghost = counter BC&Carrier
Marine + Siege Tank = counter ultralisk
Marine + dropship = economic attack
Marine + Siege Tank +dropship = economic attack from high ground
Marine + Wraith = easy counter zergling+Gardian attack
Marine + Sc vessel = counter lurker
Marine + goliath = own air unit
Marine + Vulture = own Zealot
Marine + Valkry = underused
Marine + BC = underused
Marine + nuke = ::)

so in general

Marine + Tanks= close quarter support
Marine + air unit = protect unit from scourge
Marine + low budget = cheap meat shield ;D

[Shadowdragon]

You forgot;
Marine + 159 Marines = death

[Overling]

Marines + Medics doesn't counter Hydra. I won't repeat the discussion that I had on another topic, but trust me.

Marines + Ghosts counter BCs? Only if the armor upgrades are still undone (and the BC is alone against the Ghost and zounds of Marines). Marines + Siege-tanks vs. Ultras is fun to watch, as the marines don't make a difference. And once the Ultra gets to the ST, neither does he.

BTW, you forgot Marines + reavers = own zerg ground; Marines + Lurkers = own ground non-detectors; Marine + air-unit = remaining scourges and Marines standing by. Marines + Siege-tanks = SCVs + Siege-tanks; SCVs + BCs > Marines + BCs; Marine + Wraith = SCV + Wraith = critter + Wraith; Vultures > Marines + Vultures; and Marine + Goliath = waste of minerals that could have gone into more Goliath production.

[Joneagle_X]

Seems it turned into a Reaper discussion a bit here...

I agree (a bit belatedly) with Remy's assessment of the situation, as I outlined in the Warcraft Developers (http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=4412.0) thread. I discussed how moving the Viking is a huge mistake and is quite obviously an attempt to compensate for the fact that the Viking is too powerful at the factory position, and yet is not powerful enough at the higher tier.

The Protoss have some powerful weapons in their new mechanics, such as warp-in, etc. that the Viking is needed to counter. But when the Viking was in place to counter these mechanics, it was overpowered, so they resorted to the age-old Terran solution: rely on the Seige Tank.

To me this is a mistake because I've been praising Blizzard's development of a *GASP* second Terran offensive (and defensive) option in the emphasis on infantry and use of the Viking. Going this second route would effectively put the Seige Tank in a support role rather than its traditional on-the-front-lines and bang it out type of offensive that has been lovingly referred to (by Remy first of all) as the "Terran one-shot momentum."

The introduction of the Viking is such a lauded position was effectively the end of the Terran reliance on this strategy and opened up a whole new world.

We've talked in a number of threads about the persistent need for a Terran anti-infantry option in SC2, especially if Dark Swarm were to make a reappearance. In fact, since the Firebat is again in the current build, I'm pretty convinced we'll be seeing a similar spell from the Zerg, and that's one of hte main reasons the Firebat made it back, especially at a higher (Tier 2) position.

But even though Terran does need an anti-infantry option, this wasn't the correct way to go. We've talked about Reapers with a Flamethrower attack and a number of different options, but nowhere do I remember anyone saying a mechanized Firebat was a good idea. And now that it has come up, I still don't think it's a good idea.

To me this is Blizzard's way of saying "we like the Protoss mechanics so we have to buff up the Terran to make them able to cope instead of coming up with new things for the Terran, including a way to mitigate between the Viking and overpowering the other races."

I think I'll be sending Blizzard a quite clear message in this month's report about our opinion of the new role of the Firebat. :D

[longlivefenix]

i dont like the new firebat either

i would rather see a completely new idea that is at least somewhat of a multi-level helpful unit
kinda like the hydra
it was low tier low cost highly efficient bone crusher
except with the terran it would be a less versatile (for balance)

i dont see a very good use for the firebat right now
why would you want an expensive, overspecialized, MELEE unit?
hydras will crush them now because if you simply spread them out the now expensive firebats will be to expensive to be an effecient hydra killer

heres a better way to say it:
and every new firebat can kill 3 hydras (1:3)
which means 3 hydras kills on firebat (3:1)
but as any good microer knows to focus fire
and if you use the hit and run / jump around / run 'n gun you can spare your hydras
the micro makes the firebats useless

another example:
zerglings vs expensive firebats
the zerglings will out number the firebat
lets say the firebat attack 4 units at once (2 more than regular sc - correct me if im wrong)
and 12 zerglings surround each one at a time
the firebat could only kill maybe 4/12 if its luck (the zerglings are gods when it comes to damage)
the fire bats will be much to expensive to create a force just to kill lings or any other small massers

[i2new@aol.com]

well lets correct you. first zerglings do get owned in sc1 by firebats easly. and lets also add who says the new firebats are ganna be expensive??? who says they wont have stim with there added armor and life. whos to say meds and any ablitys the fire bat my get wont make hum unstoppble?? and zergling surrounding firebets??? you must play on highly open maps too much.

[longlivefenix]

i was kinda assuming they were (at least at that stage of the game)
also i was going out on a limb with no meds healing them
i apologize for not stated the assumptions

but i still don't like em

[i2new@aol.com]

I understand where your coming from. Altho the new firebat is not something you want to see because we all want to see something new the firebat is still an ass whooping force mid game. even tho you dont think there ganna be useful. At this point from what we have seen you need to fear the new ghost marine and medic combo with newly added reaper. Also from what i can see terrans now can spit out units faster with the reactor add-ons. And let me add one more tidbit off heart breaking information from what i hear about old reporsts getting money is easyer for some odd reason. The way the game was made the miners are flawless, only the person is to blame for lack of money meaning you lack skills.

[Hodl pu]

firebats will actually take a better role than sc1. Firebats DO have stim and can still go inside bunkers. Now with more health, they can withstand more damage = they have more time to burn lings and other things. The model they made for the bat is boring and looks too mechish for me and I hate it. But the IDEA of using the firebat again for SC2 is actually good.