Cobra

[StormCrow]

As we all know the Vulture will most likely be replaced with a new, hovering land unit called Cobra. It is stated that Cobra can move while it's firing enemy units. This makes it really good at killing slow moving melee units without getting even hit by them.

What interests me the most about Cobra is that in the screenshot there appears to be four blade - like parts on its' sides.
Would this open the possibility to simply slice small enemy units into pieces by just driving over them? Don't know wether its balanced or not but is it possible?

take a look at it yourself.

http://www.starcraft2forum.org/gallery/4_20_07_07_2_30_08.jpg

( My first topic :deal: )

[Meloku]

Those look like some sort of hovering technology things, not blades.
Would still be funny tho XD

PS> say hello to the new vulture.

[generalrievous]

too bad they dont lay mines

[kehmdaddy]

We've got reapers to lay the mines now and they can just jump off a cliff to save themselves if they get caught ;D

[Darktemplar_L]

Will it even go as fast as vultures did?

[Itsmyship]

It'll go faster dude... or if not, just as fast. this thing's supposed to go really fast.

[sagrado_corazon]

damn, the vultures have always been the most annoying units (well, when used against you)

but man, i'd love to go slicing units around >.< lol

[Major Willy]

If this is the upgrade/replacement of the Vulture we know this thing will be freakishly fast and useful against smaller units along with a possible ability obtained through research.

[privateparts]

This looks to be the perfect counter unit for Thor in a terran v terran.

[Exterranminator]

Poor little zerglings or other meele suckers...u are in troubles if i get one of these ;D

[Major Willy]

And the Cobra has been confirmed to attack air units.

Might take the role of ground AA from the Goliath.

[Ych9]

The Cobra and the Stalkers are going to seperate the men and the boys for SC2.

Sending them in and attack moving, and you would get an useless Cobra/Stalker.
But with careful micromanagement, it is going to yield some satisfying results.

I can't wait to see the pros in tournments using these 2 units in action.

[Dxun]

Don't count Zerglings out just yet markus, and besides hydras will eat cobras all day long ;)

[zeratul11]

and thors will step on the hydras all day long.

i think they should change the look of the cobras. they need more details.

[bazzwano]

yeah I don't like the look, notice its colour is very different to the other units in the image.. looks more like protoss dark tech

[DontHate]

yes i agree. it's sort of pinkish... and bad. I wonder if the team colors will just be that.

[Nikzad]

I don't really know if I even like the model itself that much

it pales in comparison to the Banshee <3 <3

but maybe I like it more because I have seen it in the cinematic, who knows

[Shadowdragon]

Are you all thinking what i'm thinking?

COOOOOOBBBBBBRRAAAAAA!!!!

[DKutrovsky]

GLOBOGYM!

[SirBaron]

I strongly suspect the Cobra's going to be SC2's harassment unit nr1.

[Major Willy]

Or the Cobras could inherit their papa's speed upgrade from the Factory add-on.
C'mon Blizzard. Spider Mines. You know you want 'em.

[Major Willy]

It goes from Vulture (a bird) to the Cobra (a snake). We should keep the avian aspect in mind when we're coming up with names for this unit.
Right now I like Terran Eagle because you can say it fast enough to sound like tearinegle. But if you guys have any ideas feel free to post them.

And Blizzard better keep the grenades...

[Star-Crap]

pplz need to stop hating on the new units

[Major Willy]

I'm not hating, I'm glad the Vulture's returning but the name is a bit off.

This is my 3rd "issue" with something of Starcraft 2, and it's just the name.

[Itsmyship]

I'm not feeling Eagle too much. I like Hawk or Sparrow as names.

[Major Willy]

I was actually thinking of Sparrow a bit but now that I'm saying it out loud I like it.

[zeratul11]

what grenades? the vultures weapons in sc1? no way, we need laser for cobras now. ;D

FALCON is the name. sparrow sounds gay. hhmm. jack sparrow. ;D

[Major Willy]

I like the Terran using metal. Lasers for Battlecruisers were fine because they were the commanding ships. They get the technology first.

Except if they keep grenades they won't do the good 20 which can morph down to 5. If they keep it at like... 10 - 16 that'd be great.

Edit: Terran Sparrow and Falcon both do a nice job of keeping the name. If I worked at Blizzard HQ I'd start a strike to keep it Vulture.

[zeratul11]

i dont know, the look of the lasers in starcraft 2 just looks amazing. so im thinking adding up more laser attacks so the cobra having laser is nice. but yeh terran should keep it laser, bullets, and missiles. if they go all lasers it would be like starwars.

[Chris Benoit]

I think that the Terran Cobra should be renamed the Terran Hummingbird. The Obsolete Vulture from the original Star Craft was very agile. Cobras are not known for their speed. A hummingbird fits the description perfectly for it beats its wings at an incredibly fast speed. Hummingbirds are small birds in the family Trochilidae, native only to the Americas. They are known for their ability to hover (LIKE THE VEHICLE IN SC2) in mid-air by rapidly flapping their wings, 15–80 times per second (depending on the species). The Giant Hummingbird's wings beat 8–10 beats per second, the wings of medium sized hummingbirds beat about 20–25 beats per second and the smallest beat 70 beats per second. Capable of sustained hovering, the hummingbird has the ability to fly deliberately backwards (this is the only group of birds able to do so) or vertically, and to maintain position while drinking from flower blossoms. They are named for the characteristic hum made by their wings.The hummingbird is a small bird with a long, thin beak(the front of the vehicle looks alot like the beak of a bird). This elongated beak is one of the defining characteristics of the hummingbird, which, with an extendable, bifurcated tongue, has evolved in order to allow the bird to feed upon nectar deep within flowers. A hummingbird's lower beak also has the unique ability to flex downward to create a wider opening, facilitating the capture of insects in the mouth rather than at the tip of the beak. Hummingbirds vary in size. The smallest hummingbird, the bee hummingbird, weighs less than 2 g, while giant hummingbirds weigh 19–21 g. Most species, however, weigh 2.5–6.5 g and are 6 –12 cm in length. Hummingbirds bear the most glittering plumage in the bird world. They display sexual dimorphism, as male hummingbirds are usually more brightly colored, while females of most species display more cryptic coloration. Most males have iridescent plumage, in metallic red, orange, green and/or blue. Some have only an iridescent throat patch or cap, while others, such as the Coppery-headed Emerald are entirely iridescent. Hummingbird flight has been studied intensively from an aerodynamic perspective: Hovering hummingbirds may be filmed using high-speed video cameras. Writing in Nature, biomechanist Douglas Warrick and coworkers studied the Rufous Hummingbird, Selasphorus rufus, in a wind tunnel using particle image velocimetry techniques and investigated the lift generated on the bird's upstroke and downstroke. They concluded that their subjects produced 75% of their weight support during the down-stroke and 25% during the up-stroke: many earlier studies had assumed (implicitly or explicitly) that lift was generated equally during the two phases of the wingbeat cycle, as is the case of insects of a similar size. This finding shows that hummingbirds' hovering is similar to, but distinct from, that of hovering insects such as the hawk moths. Hummingbirds are found only in the Americas, from southern Alaska and Canada to Tierra del Fuego, including the Caribbean. The majority of species occur in tropical Central and South America, but several species also breed in temperate areas. Excluding vagrants, sometimes from Cuba or the Bahamas, only the migratory Ruby-throated Hummingbird breeds in eastern North America. The Black-chinned Hummingbird, its close relative and another migrant, is the most widespread and common species in the western United States and Canada.Most hummingbirds of the U.S. and Canada migrate to warmer climates in the northern winter, but some remain in the warmest coastal regions. Some southern South American forms also move to the tropics in the southern winter. The Rufous Hummingbird shows an increasing trend to migrate east to winter in the eastern United States, rather than south to Central America, as a result of increasing survival prospects provided by artificial feeders in gardens. In the past, individuals that migrated east would usually die, but now many survive, and their changed migration direction is inherited by their offspring. Provided sufficient food and shelter is available, they are surprisingly hardy, able to tolerate temperatures down to at least -20 °C (-4 °F).Traditionally, hummingbirds are placed in the order Apodiformes, which also contains the swifts. In the Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy, hummingbirds are separated as a new order, Trochiliformes, but this is not well supported by additional evidence. Hummingbirds' wings are hollow and fragile, making fossilization difficult and leaving their evolutionary history a mystery. Some scientists also believe that the hummingbird evolved relatively recently. Scientists also theorize that hummingbirds originated in South America, where there is the greatest species diversity. Brazil and Ecuador contain over half of the known species.Hummingbirds sometimes fly into garages and become trapped. It is widely believed that this is because they mistake the hanging (usually red-color) door-release handle for a flower, although hummingbirds can also get trapped in enclosures that do not contain anything red. Once inside, they may be unable to escape because their natural instinct when threatened or trapped is to fly upward. This is a life-threatening situation for hummingbirds, as they can become exhausted and die in a relatively short period of time, possibly as little as an hour. If a trapped hummingbird is within reach, it can often be caught gently and released outdoors. It will lie quietly in the space between cupped hands until released.

[burkid]

i quote sirbaron when i say "Paragraphs are your friends"

[Major Willy]

Wall of text hits you for 10 000.
You die.

[burkid]

d@mn! now i have to run from the graveyard to get ressd! stupid wall of text...

[kehmdaddy]

If we want to stay avian, I'm liking Terran Condor... it sounds a bit like Cobra, but it stays in line with the characteristics of a Vulture, haha! Have at it.

[Waller_Baer]

i think the 'cobra' idea comes from the two railguns....which are supposed to resemble fangs
but i think the idea of grenade shooter is more terran'ish and rugged

[PowerkickasS]

falcon is an alright name. im thinking terran peregrine ^_^ fastest speeds a bird could ever reach

EDIT: and i was like WOOAAAHHHx2 from seeing chris's avatar and the wall of text x_X gg

[Major Willy]

The two railguns could also be talons.

Terran Condor... damn I like that.
Condor... damnit Willy, flip the switch behind your ear and start thinking...

[AdmiralAckbar]

Your being really nit-picky in your criticism of the game, anyway cobra is better than vulture or any bird-related name. I kindof do like hummingbird though, ChrisBenoit made some very good points.

[kehmdaddy]

Hummingbird... are you surrrrious? I don't know, it doesn't strike me as any sort of attacking unit, or good unit whatsoever. I'd rather see that as some strange, annoying flyer- like a Terran interceptor.

[Major Willy]

Terran Carriers. Never gonna happen but a beautiful idea.

Ackbar, was the first part of that sentence because of what I said about railguns?
I wasn't getting angry because of that. I was just pointing out that it could be something else...

[Deadpool]

a humming bird would fit the description of the vehicle pretty good but i dont really like the name that much i do like the sparrow thou i think that sounds cool

[Major Willy]

I think Sparrow and Condor are the best choices so far.

[Deadpool]

i agree and if i had to pick between the 2 id prob pick sparrow

[DontHate]

the cobra sounds awesome. I mean, who cares if it's not a bird. The vulture didn't even freaking fly! The vulture was more like a fast land hoverer, and slithering is pretty close to hovering i think.

[kehmdaddy]

Sparrow would be alright, but it just sounds weak to me. Sparrows are little annoying birds... Condors are mighty birds of prey, like the Vulture. Eagle or Hawk sounds a little too majestic to me for this unit. Just my 2 cents.

[Chris Benoit]

Nevermind, I got to thinkin' and the best name for it would be Amazon Horned Frog.

THAT, OR COBRA.

[Major Willy]

Vultures are annoying little units, just not with feathers. Taking down workers and laying Spider Mines couldn't be more hair pulling.

Terranamazornefrog.

[capthavic]

Wall of text hits you for 10 000.
You die.


Saving throw!

back to topic. I think cobra is fine. It has those two barrels which look like fangs ^_^

[wuffle]

Okay guys, Cobra is okay. Viking doesn't carry an axe. Anyways, if you insist on bird names, Raptor would be badass.

[Deadpool]

raptor i like that thats good but cobra isn't so bad either

[Nikzad]

I was just thinking...they never used feline or canine animal names for the units...

I like panther, or puma, or ocelot for cats

Jackal or hyena?(if it had a peculiar sound for attack, I always thought vultures' attacks sounded funny)



PS -jk on ocelot

[capthavic]

^^^How about chupathingy?

[Major Willy]

I would love it if Blizzard did that. The guy that sits in the Cobra has to be named after one of the guys on Red team though.

[Deadpool]

i like the puma idea thats pretty cool or mayb Cougar

[burkid]

watch red vs. blue season1
"It looks kinda like a big cat"
"Like a Puma?"

[Itsmyship]

Hehe...I love that part

"It doesn't look like a warthog...it looks more like a....puma."

Oh and if the Terran guy was named after a guy from red team, i hope his name is Doughnut :P

[burkid]

"What? a Puma? what kind of animal is a puma? it is a warthog because it has these tusks. what other animal has tusks?"
"Umm, a walrus"
"Stop makin up animals! What are you gonna try next? a Unicorn?"
"Fine, its a warthog"

im guessing on most of that, its been a while since i saw it. i just know unicorn and walrus are mentioned.

sarge and caboose are my favorite.

[Itsmyship]

My favorites were Caboose, Doughnut, and Griff.

Yeah, I preety much guessed on my last thing also =P

[burkid]

i love in the newest season when Simmons is watching Griffs sister take Docs physical. hes a porn addict haha.

back on topic, cobras are pretty sweet.

[capthavic]

"The reds have a new vehicle"
"what kind of vehicle"
"I dunno it's like a big cat"
"What like a puma"
"Yeah there ya go"

Ahh RvB you may be over but your legacy lives on ^_^

[burkid]

its not over. season 5 just ended i think.

[GuiMontag]

didnt they stop at ep 100, then move to shadowrun?
on topic, cobra is fine :P

[burkid]

hmm. last episode i saw was 99, and it was cliff hanger-esque, and i thought it was the last episode of season 5. im gonna watch 100 now.

[Mokkat]

I think Cobra is way too C&C'ish

[burkid]

i dont.

@Gui and Ship, haha episode 100 was great. i guess red vs blue is over though. o well.

[capthavic]

Ya RvB is over and so is Shadowrun. I dunno what they are doing now. Maybe taking a break.

[zeratul11]

name it stinger or scorpion.

[DKutrovsky]

Its rather slow to be a counter for zealots or zerglings even when shooting while moving, we dont know the stats or at least i dont know them to see if its better to mass than vikings, even though it can shoot air units which is cool. Do you think one cobra will kill one stalker ?

Im somewhat confused with the Cobra and its role right now, it didnt seem to run circles around the Thor as i thought it would. The Thor still managed to shoot most of the time, and 6 cobras barely killed 1 thor +4-5 marines.

[GuiMontag]

its an anti tank unit, also in one of the blizzcon vids it shows a cobra taking down about 1 stalker and then being killed by another stalker soon afterwards.

FROM BLIZZCON:
130 HP
10 Damage +25 vs armoured
5 range
normal weapon speed

[DKutrovsky]

So how do you know whats armoured whats not?

So nothing from the barracks, zealots,dark templar,high templar. Everything else will take a serious beating....35 damage..Ouch...

What about zerg lol ? Is this unit going to be completely useless vs Zerg?

[GuiMontag]

i think armoured just means mechanical.

[DKutrovsky]

So zerg is completely out then

[Eye_Carumba]

It's the mixture of siege-tanks (normal mode) + vultures. I remember that siege-tanks and goliaths could be used to lure zergs and attack them while running because of their "shoot while moving" hability. Cobras can do the same, and are hovering units. I suppose they will take the place of land hit-and-run techniques, since vultures had to stop to shoot, and now that they can shoot while moving, and can overcome armored units like the STs higher dmg, they should have been slowed down anyway to make up for it.

[FlyingTiger]

except that it does only 10 damage to light armroed troops. To sum it up, the cobra is a mobile anti-armor.

[Eye_Carumba]

yes, it's a mobile anti-slow-armored units. But Ultras are armored aswell. They were very tough in the first, and they should count amongst these in the second. ^^

[MarineCorp]

Well Cobras poison slow units :P

[FlyingTiger]

yes, it's a mobile anti-slow-armored units. But Ultras are armored aswell. They were very tough in the first, and they should count amongst these in the second. ^^


I'm sure that'll be the case as is all heavyily armored whether it'd be biological or mechanical.

[Ghost]

Well, from what I am reading I'd use the Cobra for support fire, now that I know what a couple of cobras can do to a Thor I will be keeping cobras around my thor, not only marines.

[BnechbReaker]

So how do you know whats armoured whats not?

So nothing from the barracks, zealots,dark templar,high templar. Everything else will take a serious beating....35 damage..Ouch...

What about zerg lol ? Is this unit going to be completely useless vs Zerg?


units are going to have different armor types like in wc3, in sc1, the armor types were small, medium, large. this will definitely change.

so armored will be one of the new armor types

[Ghost]

They probably mean armored as in Large. But as we can see from the new screenies the SCV is Fleshy-Mechanical, so there will defently be new armor/unit types.

[Gasmaskguy]

They should do it maybe a liiittle faster, otherwise it wont be that worth it.
130 hp?? wow, the vulture had like 80, right?

[generalrievous]

fast attack vehicle, just like the vulture

[Ghost]

The vulture had 75 hp I think, Besides, the cobra will probably get a speed upgrade. There is not one unit in the game which doesnt get an upgrade. (Besides workers.)

[Eye_Carumba]

Yes, I'm sensing that the new units are somewhat of a mix from the old units, instead of new versions of them. Reaver was split into Warp Rays and Colossus. Arbiter was split between MotherF.Ship and Stasis orb. Dragoon was split between Stalker and Immortal. Twilight archon is half-archon half-dark-archon. Viking is half wraith-half goliath. Banshee is half-wraith half-valkirye. Roles are not beeing replaced, but rather divided into a new arrangement. That's what I think.

[Ghost]

How can a Banshee be half valkire? It cant even attack air!

[10-Neon]

So how do you know whats armoured whats not?


It states it right underneath the unit stats. It says "Armored" if a unit is armored, "Fleshy" if a unit is fleshy, etc.

--

I've used the Cobra, and I have to agree that I am not sure about its role either. It isn't nearly as mobile as an upgraded Viking, and I don't remember seeing any speed upgrade. I've also found that the best units for taking down Thors are not mid-tier armored units, but first tier infantry. They can get right underneath it and maneuver much faster than it can hope to turn. Of course, Siege Tanks are so powerful that you can nail a Thor with about four of them spread out.

As a side note, they were using a lot of the old sounds on units they hadn't completed the sounds for yet. The Cobra was using the old Vulture sounds.

[Gasmaskguy]

How can a Banshee be half valkire? It cant even attack air!


no, but it hits a large area

[Ghost]

Oh well, when you see it THAT way.. xD

@Ne's post: Damn I envy you...

[BnechbReaker]

obviously the cobra's supposed role was anti-armor, since it has a massive anti-armor bonus, whether it does it's job remains to be seen

[Ghost]

Thats why I think it should be support fire incase your lighter units get engaged by a large armored unit.

[BnechbReaker]

vulture was the perfect name, as it is a savager, much like the role played by the unit. scouting, harassing

[Nikzad]

well, for me, a Protoss player who loves Zealots, the accurate name for vultures (or their replacement, the Cobra) would be P.O.S.

[BnechbReaker]

haha vultrues owned zealots so bad in sc1, even their price is cheaper than zealots

[MarineCorp]

Cobra sounds fine by me due to it's role and that it hovers also it's swift and pretty fast as well

[Major Willy]

Have you been watching the same demos as me Corp?
The Cobras move at the same speed as the Thor when it's turning.

[MarineCorp]

Yep they do but Blizzard is still under construction so they are probably increase the speed of the Cobra plus i never expected the Thor to turn that quick to be honest

[Ghost]

I like the cobra as it is guys, its an LTH and a GTA unit that can fire while turning/moving, the desing goes with its role too, a support fire unit.

But yes, the name is abit dodgy, name it Typhoon xD

[Nikzad]

what do those two acronyms mean?

[Ghost]

Light to Heavy and Ground to Air.

[zeratul11]

yah just change the model add more detail and character to it. not a boring vulture look alike.

[paragon]

It goes from Vulture (a bird) to the Cobra (a snake). We should keep the avian aspect in mind when we're coming up with names for this unit.

That's the absolute dumbest reason for something needing a change. ZOMG IT CHANGESED THE ASPECTSFSSAGADHDSFASFASZOR

no offense

[burkid]

paragon, you make me laugh.

personally, i dont mind the name cobra, its better than some things they could have named it.

[BnechbReaker]

the cobras are really expensive compared to vultures

[Major Willy]

Christ yeah actually. What was it? 150/100?

[paragon]

It's as if it's a completely different unit with a completely different purpose :O
which it is...
WOW it HOVERS must be the vultures f**king replacement.

Sorry, no. The Reaper is the vulture replacement. ZOMG thats not named after a bird either. We should change the name of that to Peregrine or better yet, Maltese F**king Falcon.
The Reaper is fast
The Reaper is anti-small units/immortal
The Reaper has a f**king mine
The Vulture is fast
The Vulture is anti-small units
The Vulture has a f**king mine
The Cobra is anti-armor/anti-air
The Cobra is relatively slow
The Cobra DOESN'T have a mine

[Major Willy]

Paragon calm down. Just... christ.

[paragon]

see, you think i'm actually angry or whatever. In truth I think it's hilarious

[Indigent]

Well.. Cobras are vehicles... That is mostly why everone thinks its a vulture replacement. It looks like a moter cyclish unit only except I can't see the guy on it. Pretty sure that it isn't looks like it is a moter cycle with a top. And I HATE how they say that the cobra is a fast unit... Can't even compare to a vulture. If you make the cobra faster then a zealot then you can just shoot while driving away. The zealot charge is hella fast muhahaha.

[burkid]

this comes down to the same thing that happened with the dragoon.

lorewise, the immortal replaces the dragoon, but functionality wise, the stalker is the replacement.

lorewise(im assuming) the cobra replaces the vulture, but functionality wise, the reaper is the replacement.

[Remy]

Names I liked so far are Raptor and Jackal. My personal suggestion is Sidewinder. Cobra doesn't sound right.

But the biggest change that the cobra needs is a speed boost. Stop-and-shoot with vulture speed is superior to move-and-shoot at cobra speed(which is a speed directly comparable to the Thor in some way, how sad and pathetic is that?).

[paragon]

It's not a vulture. It's not a vulture replacement. It is a light tank. Not a hover cycle.
I'm sure if you have a thor and some cobras come up to it that you just want the enemy cobras to circle the thor with complete immunity because they will outrun the turning speed of the thor with no problem.

[burkid]

vultures did like 20 concussive right? so 5 to most things. Cobras do 10 damage +25 to units with the armor class 'armored'. that right there shows that vultures and cobras are completly different.

[Nikzad]

yeah i think before people saw it in action, they were just really hung up on how the chassis is somewhat similar and that it hovered. probably stuck in peoples' minds as a replacement even though it really isn't

[Remy]

I gives a rat's ass what the people think the Cobra is supposed to be, I'm talking about the move-and-shoot mechanic itself. Vulture is the best example for comparison because it was the fastest ranged ground unit.

When the move-and-shoot was revealed, I immediately thought what a cool idea, and how it would be deadly in the hands of skilled players with excellent micro. I don't know if the Cobra described as a fast unit was false info, but I was under that impression. Basically as of right now, the move-and-shoot mechanic is rather unimpressive, and the over slowness of the Cobra's movement speed takes away from it's micro potential.

Why would you bother circling a Thor when one of your Cobras(in fact, the same one) will always be taking hits? You might as well save yourself the trouble and stay still, it's the same thing. Actually, staying still then microing targeted Cobras away will probably be a better idea.

If Cobras changing the hella slow movement speed and move-and-shoot mechanic to fast ground speed and stop-and-shoot will make it more like a vulture, so be it. It is a superior mechanic in terms of ranged micro, no matter what unit it belongs to.

I considered the possible benefit of when Cobras take on melee units, but even then I don't think it will be all that. The exact worth of move-and-shoot vs melee remains to be seen and tested more extensively.

[BnechbReaker]

shooting while moving is not a new mechanics, tanks could do it in starcraft 1

[TerranGod]

vultures > cobras

i think everyone has to agree with that

[Indigent]

No they can't. I don't know why they said that on wiki. Even though it aims it's cannon at them while moving it doesn't shoot and the only way it can move and shoot is to micro it. Is that what you meant?
Yeah, I think the cobra should be different.

[MarineCorp]

... Well..isn't it great having Cobras able to shoot air?? they replaced the mine with air and Reapers have it now at least we are still able to use the mine who cares that the Cobra don't have a mine, when there's a mine there's a mine nothing different but what's different is that a different unit has a mine SO WHAT we still can use mine with a cheaper unit and Cobras are able to attack airs isn't that good? yes it is good. The Cobra's weapon is very powerful as well and yes it is slow but Blizzard is still progressing the game and still concentrating the Terrans just like the commentator said 'Nothing here today is FINAL'

[Remy]

shooting while moving is not a new mechanics, tanks could do it in starcraft 1


No matter how much you wanna believe that, that is not true. This has been discussed. Tanks only deceivingly appear to do so because of how they were animated, they're cannon/turret(whatever it is really called) pivot and turn to aim at their engaged target during attack cooldown. You can not keep a siege tank attacking continuously without stopping.

The reaper's "mine" is also closer to a grenade in function, it doesn't function like a mine in that whether or not it is triggered or not after activation has no effect on whether it goes off or not. But I personally don't really care that cobra has no mine and that the reaper mine is different.

[Indigent]

I thought that the mine was going to be a bomb... :( I thought you could plant them on units and buildings.

[Remy]

I think you're right about that, a time charge or something like that, just not a mine. I'm personally way more excited about the reapers' impact on gameplay with their awsome mobility and interesting tech mechanics. Bomb, mine, time charge, or whatever else is just extra gravy.

[MarineCorp]

Yeah i thought the Reapers is a very cool concept, making mass of them is very lethal for raiding bases and throwing a stack of bombs/mines

PS: is there anyone here who has more riddles for the 'puzzles and riddles thread (part 2)'???

[paragon]

vultures > cobras

i think everyone has to agree with that

apples > oranges

no, everyone does not have to agree with that

you're comparing an anti-tank unit to an anti-infantry unit. Oh-my-god!
you would not use a vulture to take out heavy units
you would not use a cobra to take out small units

[Indigent]

Really? I thought it was the way arround, and orranges got pwn3d by apples so baddly.

[Remy]

Orange is rotten, you don't need an apple to show you that.

[i2new@aol.com]

.......I liked Vultures better as anti-infantry. The only thing i want to know is a immortal considered big enough to take good damage from cobras or are the immortals considered infantry? And i would prefur if cobras go an attack speed upgrade or atlest a movement speed upgrade. Hell even both would be good.

[Indigent]

You mean enen both is BETER. It is too slow. And is the rail gun an actul rail gun? You shoot a mineral field next to a bunch of zerglings and they're all dead!!

[zeratul11]

i think the reason why they limited the cobras movement (not vulture like) is to AVOID ABUSE or spam of the cobra. micro this unit ONLY to win(vulture) sucks, starcraft 2 is different now, a group of cobra will die against a colossus thats why you need other units to take out the colossus.

starcraft 1 was limited in terms of using all units because higher tier units in starcraft 1 was not really useful in pro games. but now its different. and dont compare cobra with vultures.

[Indigent]

Hey, I just noticed something, Remy, why isn't your name green like all the moderators? I like red just as much as the next guy but aren't you supposed have your name in green?

[paragon]

And is the rail gun an actul rail gun? You shoot a mineral field next to a bunch of zerglings and they're all dead!!

um... what?

[Indigent]

Shoot through a long line of zerglings at once.

[Remy]

Hey, I just noticed something, Remy, why isn't your name green like all the moderators? I like red just as much as the next guy but aren't you supposed have your name in green?


It's one of two things I asked of the admin when he offered me the mod position, that I get to keep my red name color. I love red.

[Indigent]

Wow, do you like have the highest power level?

[TerranGod]

vultures > cobras

i think everyone has to agree with that

apples > oranges

no, everyone does not have to agree with that

you're comparing an anti-tank unit to an anti-infantry unit. Oh-my-god!
you would not use a vulture to take out heavy units
you would not use a cobra to take out small units


pro gamers and i use vulture MINES to take out heavy units
you CAN use a cobra to take out small units
apples > orange is definate
oranges suck unless tangerines count as oranges

[Ych9]

To be honest, I don't know why Blizzard made the Cobras an anti-heavy type of unit. Siege Tanks actually fill that role and I'm really not sure what is the point of the Cobras if they are an anti-heavy unit. Why would you build Cobras if your regular Siege Tanks is better at taking down those big units. It would make sense if Cobras are very fast units but from the looks of it, they aren't very fast. Only thing I believe Cobra is going to be better at is that they have the ability to hit air units. But why do you need it to hit air units if you have the Vikings around?

[hillzagold]

remember the ion thrusters? an upgrade for speed. it's pretty likely you can purchase and upgrade cobras to make them faster.

[Indigent]

Yeah.. But you don't know if they really are coming back yet. They didn't even show the medics in the little movie thingy. They are coming back, though. Pretty sure..

[american_rdm]

The Medic is back go to Starcraft2.com and look in the screenshots.

[Indigent]

Yeah, I saw it too but the medics too, although, should have been released.

[paragon]

The Cobra is more mobile than the Siege tank is. I don't know how fast or slow it is but it's faster than being immobile. Also the cobra is probably less expensive than a siege tank. So, you've got a cheaper light tank for dealing damage to their large units and the siege tanks can deal with masses of small units due to their splash damage and to static defenses. I believe both units have their uses and that the Cobra is a good unit.

[GrahamTastic]

The thing is, you need an Armory to build a Cobra, which makes Siege Tanks a bit easier to get.

I think Cobras should be the initial Factory unit instead of the Viking. Adding a Tech Lab will get you the Siege Tank, and adding an Armory will get you the Viking.

[Major Willy]

It makes sense for the Viking to be first because it isn't that great until a bit later while the Cobra can do something other units can't ("drive by's"). So the Cobra needing the Armory is fine with me.

I can build one relatively quick because I like to get my metal out there ASAP.

[hillzagold]

if you circle around enemy troops during a battle, it might piss off the other guy, right?

[Major Willy]

At the speed of granny using her walker.

[paragon]

You needed an armory to get the Goliath and I still ended up with more of those than I had tanks. I think it is good for it to be an armory unit.

[Indigent]

The goliath is more of a support unit while the tanks are the ones actually blowing up immobile defenses and other units. Goliaths are placed around your tanks so they can attack air units and attack when units get close enough. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention there are supposed to be more goliaths then tanks.

[paragon]

Same with cobras, they are support. That was the point of my post. You have played into my hand perfectly... muahahahahaha

[Indigent]

Nooo!! You evil!! Evalll.... Stinky pants!

[freedom23]

As the word implies them (Cobras) maybe nothings wrong with them becoz cobras are sneaky creatures even able to take out large victims... so basically what we are looking forward to is a raider unit for support... i mean come on,, the siege tank is a heavy duty unit but they cant move while doing heavy damage in siege mode... the only thing i want to change is for them to lose air attacking ability.. coz the vikings already fill the spot for the ground to air mech atcker... perhaps they can shift that to the Thor .. or not lol

[ImaGiNe.]

The Terran Cobra's role in the Terran arsenal is to be an anti-armor attack vehicle from the information we have garnered so far. I think that the Cobra makes for the perfect candidate for the lockdown ability. The lockdown ability targets mechanical units shorting out circuitry of target, rendering it immobile for about 60 seconds. With this additional power, I think the Cobra would be a lot more devastating. If Blizzard does not increase it's speed, Blizzard should give it lockdown to compensate.

[Fenix]

The Cobra is the one that attacks while moving, is it not? Totally imba if it gets that ability.

[paragon]

I agree with fenix on this one.
Besides, zergs have heavy units that are going to be susceptible to cobras but they aren't mechanical. So it doesn't always fit.

[Fenix]

Imagine if you have a line of siege tanks guarding your base. If the Cobras hover up, launching Lockdowns, they'll blow right past the core of your defense.

[Nuclear Launch]

To me the biggest problem with the cobras is that they just look so ugly. It´s the unit who looks more like a toy at this point.

[paragon]

nonsense they look kinda like the IFT-T tanks from starwars

[ImaGiNe.]

The Cobra is the one that attacks while moving, is it not? Totally imba if it gets that ability.

Does not mean that it cannot stop to cast the spell. Take for example all spell-casting units in StarCraft, they needed to pause to cast them. Also, it could also cost an incredible amount of energy to launch a single lockdown missile.

I agree with fenix on this one.
Besides, zergs have heavy units that are going to be susceptible to cobras but they aren't mechanical. So it doesn't always fit.

Ghosts had the lockdown ability even against Zerg if you researched (and wasted valuable resources) on it. I am just saying that the Cobra could have this ability researched to make it more formidable against the technologically advanced races.

Imagine if you have a line of siege tanks guarding your base. If the Cobras hover up, launching Lockdowns, they'll blow right past the core of your defense.

You seem to forget that Siege Tanks have an incredible firing range, If the Cobras can get through and survive the line of fire, then maybe they might be able to lockdown a few. Also Cobras are farther up the tech tree and generally suck against everything else according to other people's BlizzCon 2007 accounts.

But if Blizzard does in fact give the Cobra a speed enhancement upgrade, then I am pleased and we can all disregard the thoughts of lockdown.

[paragon]

I was just talking about your justification of giving it lockdown because it is an anti-armor unit.

[BnechbReaker]

The Cobra is the one that attacks while moving, is it not? Totally imba if it gets that ability.


balance should never be used as an argument to dismiss an idea, everything can be balanced.

if something is not balanced, change some numbers to either power it up or nerf it. simple

[Shadowdragon]

I like the idea. Lockdown is by far the best way to deal with heavy units, so it makes perfect sense. Sure, it isn't useful against the zerg, but a partially usefull unit is better than a worthless one. After all, this kind of unit is to easy to overpower or under power with raw strength, so an ability may even things out a bit.

[Nikzad]

you really think so?

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/rv/cl_tank_Aat.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/8/8c/Cobra.jpg

not to be a jerk but I don't really see it

[DKutrovsky]

It does sound right to give the anti-armor unit lockdown, its a really neat ability. Like BnechbReaker said, everything could be balanced.

I really miss Irradiate and Lockdown to be honest, didnt really use lockdown as often, but heck did Irradiate work wonders vs zerg...

[BnechbReaker]

@Shadowdragon

sorry for not pointing out clearly, my comment was aimed at fenix's first reply to this thread, i'll edit it.

[paragon]

IFT-T not AAT. Christ.
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/809/1094232208.jpg
anyways, I said kinda, not a lot.

[Nikzad]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Ift-x.jpg
ahh ok i guess i can see it...remove the pontoon-ish things and the chassis is similar

[BnechbReaker]

it's those 2 guns on the side that make them look similar

[hillzagold]

how about if it used up alot of energy, all of the enrgy a cobra could have. also, it slowed the cobra down to, say, reaver speed

[Shadowdragon]

Than it would be utterly useless. One or the other, not both.

[Nuclear Launch]

IFT-T=cool
Cobra=toy

[zeratul11]

cobra is actually better looking than the AAT, just make the cobra a little bigger. and get rid of the feets, add some more detail, and the rail gun should look powerful. anyway i like the idea of having 2 pilots on it, driving and controlling the rail gun.

[TerranGod]

lockdown on cobra? worse idea so far...

ghosts should have it

screw drop pod, i want lockdown

[paragon]

Also, I'd like it if SOME units don't have activated abilities. So far the cobra is one of the only ones.

[hillzagold]

marine....scv, i guess...cobra.....................uh.....actually, marines have stim pack...

[paragon]

scv - build, repair, advanced build
marine - stim
reapers - stim, throw explosive charge
viking - turn into air/ground
cobra - none
siege tank - siege mode
thor - artillery strike
banshee - cloak
predator - intercept mode
battlecruiser - yamato or plasma torpedo
medic - heal and flare
ghost - nuke, drop pods, cloak
drop ship - transports units
nomad - repair with nanobots, emp, defense matrix

[Nikzad]

lol good one zeratul11...your post made me laugh

that's like saying "I like this car, just get rid of the tires and rims, change the chassis, replace the engine, and make it twice as big"

[Indigent]

It has no tires but get rid of the rims chasis the engine but I think it is a good size since it is a light armored unit. And the rail gun should actually be a rail gun! Shooting through a zergling to the zergling behind it..

[Remy]

I have given much thought to why they came up with the cobra.  I think the basic concept in the beginning might have been to come up with a unit that compliments the viking.  Where the viking's ground attack is only good vs small units, the cobra is aimed to be the opposite and good vs armored units.

However, since the Terran really isn't lacking in the firepower department especially with siege tanks around, the main selling point of cobras for Terran players would be the move-and-shoot mechanic.  But since the cobra themselve lack mobility, move-and-shoot is rather pointless.

The Terran army isn't a mobile one.  Terran rely on momentum and firepower, and there is already siege tanks providing the backbone to that style of play.  So in order for cobras to have any meaningful use and not be redundant, they would need to be able to be a separately detached self-sufficient raiding party.  But like I said before, cobras are just very lacking in the mobility department, and thus, can't really pull that off in any meaningful manner.  You would need to be able to drop in and pull out swiftly enough to not suffer too much from enenmy fire to make it worth your while, but right now, cobras can't really fight without constantly taking hits.

At this point, I much rather they bring back the vulture in place of cobras.  They can easily modify the stats, and more importantly, the role of vultures to fit the anti-armor job description.  Vulture are different because they were the fastest moving units in the entire game of SC1 bar none, faster than any and all air units in the game.  Even without spider mines, an air attack, and move-and-shoot, with a killer ground speed and +25 bonus damage ranged attack vs armored units, vultures would still be way more useful than the current version cobras because they can serve as a high mobility detachment.  Even during all-out battles, skilled players can micro fast vultures to flank enemy armored units swooping in and out quickly.

With most of Terran looking incredibly promising and delicious right now, I just can't see the cobra being very lovely units to have fun with.  They just don't look too useful.  Especially the move-and-shoot mechanic, it's useless, nothing more than a gimmick on paper.

The hell with cobras, gimme vultures or some other unit.  They better change the nomad in a quick, fast, and a hurry too.  And before more detail is available, I find the usefulness of the predators very questionable at this point as well.

[paragon]

I know you just love zerg and they are the fastest race but Terrans CAN BE a mobile force and don't have to rely on momentum and firepower. Vikings, banshees, dropships, ghosts. Stagger the attacks to create a beachhead in the enemy's base first with a ghost calling down a nuke on the perimeter defenses and then calling down drop pods. Then vikings and banshees coming in to deal out the initial AA and AG damage and finally dropships in to unload your siege tanks. Quick lightning attack to reduce the enemy base to rubble.

And instead of brining back your coveted vulture and making it anti-armor (making a hover bike anti-armor does not make any sense) just give the cobra a speed boost. Much simpler and much more effective way of dealing with the problem.

And as stated before, you already have vultures. They just lost their bike, got a jet pack, and jump up and down cliffs. They are called reapers.

And maybe, just maybe blizzard already tested out the cobra as a super fast vulture-esque unit and realized that it was way to imbalanced to be able to have something zip around the battlefield, destroy enemy armored units, and zip out without taking much damage. I mean, that sure as f**k sounds imbalanced to me.

[Nikzad]

wow...I'm impressed...a multiple-paragraph post by paragon that isn't a diatribe and doesn't chew anyone out! *claps*

yes, it would be much more logical to speed it up rather than scrap it totally

@ Remy/anyone else - aren't Terran supposed to be the most mobile race? Buildings can lift off to cut down on transit time to the front, infantry with stims, vikings can transform to overcome obstacles, reapers can jump cliffs, etc...

[freedom23]

basically giving its name was the real problem... why give a slow unit the name cobra hence cobras are sneaky assasin creatures.. the change is should be model and speed coz it really looks more like an air unit than a ground to me.... ^_^

[Remy]

Paragon, all that good stuff can perhaps work in fantasy land or noob city, whichever, where people let you march up to their front door and nuke their asses. But in truth, Terran play IS momentum and firepower. There are obviously other things like early M+M, mid-game vultures, wraith strikes, tank drop, etc., what kind of boring race would it be without some options on the side? But the truth remains that the main power of the Terran is their momentum.

But regardless, ghost is late-game, nuke is hard to pull off against better opponents, and two of the units you mentioned are under development for the yet-to-hit-beta SC2. Your example is purely theoretical at best.

A hover bike being anti-armored makes no sense but a hover craft being anti-armored somehow makes more sense? A vulture could easily be made into a larger craft in SC2, use the cobra model, and have a role change. Call it vulture or cobra it doesn't really matter, it's the same thing. Tweaking the vulture to be anti-armor with the cobra model or jacking up the speed of the cobra, there is little difference. It's the same thing as the carrier/tempest situation. I fail to see your point on how one is easier than the other when it's just using whichever namesake and just using the SC2 unit model. All the rest is yet to be balance tested and tweaked any damn way.

And yes, a super fast zippy-zappy-never-stop-to-shoot hover craft that knocks out enemy armored units "sure as f**k sounds imbalanced to me" too. And move-and-shoot right now is the most worthless mechanic there is, not much different from stop-and-shoot, not worth extra micro, and is needlessly the limiting factor on how fast the cobra can be. Since A and B both suck, a high speed ground unit that stops to shoot sure sounds a hell of a lot better than those two options right there. And if that's the case, why wouldn't I just call it vulture for simplicity's sake, even if it's just for the purpose of the discussion at hand in this thread and this thread only?

Call it what the hell you want, it doesn't matter. The truth remains that the cobra as of now sure looks like a piece of **** with a gimmicky mechanic. And just to point it out 'cause it's starting to annoy me, I've been saying that the reapers are vulture replacements almost as soon as I found out about the reaper and their cliff jumping. That's probably before you were even here, perhaps even before I got here and was posting stuff elsewhere, but so what? I was also the first person to fully understand warp-in and had it down pretty accurately since way back. I was perhaps the first person out of any site to point out that resources are deducted when you warp-in, but so what?

I really don't gives a rats ass and can care less if OMG my ass was the one who got **** right with my otherworldly intelligence, superior analytical skills, and unmatched SC knowledge. Who gives a ****? Stop bringing up "reapers are vultures" when it's the cobra's inadequacy that's in question. Coveted vulture my ass, I have no loyalty to unit designs or lore, it's function and balance in multiplayer above all.

@ Nikzad, in actual multiplayer, Terran is overall the least mobile. Terran rely HEAVILY on momentum and firepower. Being able to lift off the CC has its benefits, but overall, the buildings are just mobile, but not highly so. They lack speed to make their mobility useful, kind of like another piece of junk.

[Nikzad]

nice post Remy, as usual
but can you explain to me what you mean by momentum? firepower is pretty self-explanatory but I'm not sure I know what you mean by momentum

[Indigent]

Wow, I could really picture Remmy in real life making that speach behind an american flag with four guys with kazoos going. DOoo- Do- Do- Do- Do- Do... Doooo..Do.

[Remy]

Terran has a full march at mid-game(referred to as the "Terran's one-shot" by Koreans) once siege tech is available and enough tanks are online, it's pretty text book. Terran units by design are not self-sufficient and rely on the synergy of a balanced mix of units. M+M is weak against hydra/lurker by themselves, tanks are weak against leg-upped zerglings and air by themselves. Also, Terran must rely on their units for base defense, more so than the other races. Siege mode tank is what provides the backbone to the firepower that is needed for momentum of the full march, so it doesn't come until at least mid-game.

With all of the factors combined, it is harder for Terran to make quick assaults against the opponent, especially striking multiple locations simultaneously or make multiple assault in quick succession. Terran also have a harder time dealing with repeated annoyance tactics themselves, especially when they do march out, because they have to move their army together in formation and can't quickly alter troop movement, and also because Terran units are very slow in general. This is why repeated small scale assaults using annoyance tactics serve to slow down or at least delay the Terran. Terran players who are skilled but not at the highest level will often lose because they failed to keep all of their ground forces moving together when dealing with annoyance tactics, hits on the expos, or ambush tactics.

Once the Terran is ready for the all-out offense, they move out in unison in attempt to first take dominance of the open ground in the middle of the map, then systematically advance the entire formation toward the enemy's base. The one-shot is always there and can always be expected, it is only a matter of when and how well it is pulled off. The opponent's job is to delay the one-shot as much as possible with early rushes, hit-and-run tactics, and assaults on expos, until it is more favorable for the non-Terran, such as having defilers out.

Vultures play a role in this because they fill the gap at early tier 2 before enough tanks and siege tech is ready for the full march all the while riding the same factory tech as tanks. Basically they buy you the time you need while also doing some damage to the opponent at the same time. You would use vulture's speed to assault the enemy's mineral line while avoiding full-on confrontation as much as possible, killing workers even while taking some enemy fire. Vultures also provide the cushion needed during that gap in timing to keep units like zealots in check as well as reinforce the Terran defense against heavier assaults with spider mines.

Terran rely on their whole ground army more than any other race, but their full march is very deadly because it carries so much momentum. To play Terran well at higher skill levels, it takes a lot of micro, a good understanding of the overall game-flow, and most importantly, great discipline.

[paragon]

Sorry for the long post and sorry for all the quotes but I had to point out each thing I was talking about and most of my responses are longer than the quotes they respond to.


Paragon, all that good stuff can perhaps work in fantasy land or noob city, whichever, where people let you march up to their front door and nuke their asses. But in truth, Terran play IS momentum and firepower. There are obviously other things like early M+M, mid-game vultures, wraith strikes, tank drop, etc., what kind of boring race would it be without some options on the side?

I was under the impression that all the races needed firepower to win... by like... shooting at stuff. And obviously there are always other ways to go but you seem to be saying "no that's dumb (yes thats right I see you belittling my idea saying it belongs in noob land or whatever. hey maybe someone will power down you for saying my idea was dumb in different words? no, didn't think so http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1983.msg49504#msg49504). Your idea of what terran strength is is not the end all be all of terran strategy. I give an example of someone else terrans COULD DO and you dismiss it. "Terrans CAN BE a mobile force" and "don't have to rely on momentum and firepower" were my exact words.


But the truth remains that the main power of the Terran is their momentum.

This is a rather vague term in this usage and you have not explained it as of yet. It's like saying "the strength of the protoss is in its pizazz. The typical reaction would be "um... what? care to explain?"


But regardless, ghost is late-game, nuke is hard to pull off against better opponents, and two of the units you mentioned are under development for the yet-to-hit-beta SC2. Your example is purely theoretical at best.

I just threw in the ghost in the end as an afterthought. I could do it without a ghost too. And EVERYTHING about how units in starcraft 2 play is theoretical


A hover bike being anti-armored makes no sense but a hover craft being anti-armored somehow makes more sense?

The design of the Cobra lends itself to being a light tank that happens to hover. For just one of many examples, the Warrior is a British light tank that is often fitted with TOW anti-tank missiles.


A vulture could easily be made into a larger craft in SC2, use the cobra model, and have a role change. Call it vulture or cobra it doesn't really matter, it's the same thing. Tweaking the vulture to be anti-armor with the cobra model or jacking up the speed of the cobra, there is little difference. It's the same thing as the carrier/tempest situation. I fail to see your point on how one is easier than the other when it's just using whichever namesake and just using the SC2 unit model. All the rest is yet to be balance tested and tweaked any damn way.

So you would change the vulture into an anti-armored role and give it the cobra model and call it either the cobra or the vulture. As vulture might confuse some people about the role and the change in appearance lets just go with cobra. So it's got the cobra's name, model, and role. How is it in any way related to the vulture?


And yes, a super fast zippy-zappy-never-stop-to-shoot hover craft that knocks out enemy armored units "sure as f**k sounds imbalanced to me" too. And move-and-shoot right now is the most worthless mechanic there is, not much different from stop-and-shoot, not worth extra micro, and is needlessly the limiting factor on how fast the cobra can be. Since A and B both suck, a high speed ground unit that stops to shoot sure sounds a hell of a lot better than those two options right there. And if that's the case, why wouldn't I just call it vulture for simplicity's sake, even if it's just for the purpose of the discussion at hand in this thread and this thread only?

Well what if you were, say, retreating for whatever reason. And hey, maybe you even have some siege tanks. These are pretty slow units relative to other units. But you are being chased down by stalkers for instance. They keep blinking up close to you and shooting then blinking again and shooting. Now, you could just group your cobras and siege tanks together and, since units will go the same speed if they are in the same group and told to move at the same time, you can have the siege tanks in front with the cobras behind them constantly shooting at the stalkers AND retreating at the same time. Sounds better than ordering the siege tanks to retreat and then microing the hell out of vulture/cobras that will have to stop/shoot/catch up to the stalkers whenever they blink. There's one use. I could think of more.


Call it what the hell you want, it doesn't matter. The truth remains that the cobra as of now sure looks like a piece of **** with a gimmicky mechanic. And just to point it out 'cause it's starting to annoy me, I've been saying that the reapers are vulture replacements almost as soon as I found out about the reaper and their cliff jumping. That's probably before you were even here, perhaps even before I got here and was posting stuff elsewhere, but so what?
And? I knew the reaper was a vulture replacement from the moment I saw them do their thing on the gameplay trailer the day starcraft 2 was announced. Since you know the reaper is a vulture replacement why would you "much rather they bring back the vulture in place of cobras." That would make 2 vultures.


I was also the first person to fully understand warp-in and had it down pretty accurately since way back. I was perhaps the first person out of any site to point out that resources are deducted when you warp-in, but so what?

Again. And? Funny sentence structure though. You state some great thing you believe you did (being the first) and then say "so what?" as if what you said doesn't matter at all. So... so what? Why even say it at all. By the way, my first impression of what warp in did from the initial game play trailer was spot on. Doesn't mean I was first. I'm sure lots of people correctly guessed what it did when they saw the game play trailer.


I really don't gives a rats ass and can care less if OMG my ass was the one who got **** right with my otherworldly intelligence, superior analytical skills, and unmatched SC knowledge. Who gives a ****?

I'm having difficulty finding where I did any of this in my post... Sure I've said that I've gotten things right in OTHER posts but none of those are in this thread.


Stop bringing up "reapers are vultures" when it's the cobra's inadequacy that's in question. Coveted vulture my ass, I have no loyalty to unit designs or lore, it's function and balance in multiplayer above all.

YOU'RE bringing up the vulture. Note that my post prior to yours was all about how it sorta looked like a hover tank from star wars. Your post compared it to the vulture and how you would much rather have the vulture than the cobra summed up pretty good in this statement by you: "I much rather they bring back the vulture in place of cobras."
Also, no cussing. Rule 3. I bleep out mine.


Terran has a full march at mid-game(referred to as the "Terran's one-shot" by Koreans) once siege tech is available and enough tanks are online, it's pretty text book. Terran units by design are not self-sufficient and rely on the synergy of a balanced mix of units. M+M is weak against hydra/lurker by themselves, tanks are weak against leg-upped zerglings and air by themselves. Also, Terran must rely on their units for base defense, more so than the other races. Siege mode tank is what provides the backbone to the firepower that is needed for momentum of the full march, so it doesn't come until at least mid-game.

You are describing units and stats from a game that the cobra is not in, StarCraft. The cobra exists in StarCraft 2 where there have been significant changes to Terran. And sure, it's all only theory for StarCraft 2 but hey, that is where the cobra belongs. With the other units in the theory-crafting. And no race has really self-sufficient units, as they shouldn't, terrans do seem like a faster race in StarCraft 2 compared to StarCraft. Quicker AAG (Air Anti-Ground) provided by the banshee where before the only real AAG threat was the BC. Quicker AA/AG with the viking's two modes. Also, you forgot dropships in your assessment of terrans. Dropships can make terrans incredibly mobile in place of a slow and costly push/full march.


With all of the factors combined, it is harder for Terran to make quick assaults against the opponent, especially striking multiple locations simultaneously or make multiple assault in quick succession.

Reapers, banshees, vikings, all these are oriented towards quick assaults.


Terran also have a harder time dealing with repeated annoyance tactics themselves, especially when they do march out, because they have to move their army together in formation and can't quickly alter troop movement, and also because Terran units are very slow in general.

Dropships are relatively fast. Just because a unit could just walk somewhere doesn't mean it should. Also, dropships offer you with more choices for where you want to deploy your troops rather than a direct assault on a choke point. Combine this with banshees, vikings, predators and you shouldn't have too much of a problem.


This is why repeated small scale assaults using annoyance tactics serve to slow down or at least delay the Terran. Terran players who are skilled but not at the highest level will often lose because they failed to keep all of their ground forces moving together when dealing with annoyance tactics, hits on the expos, or ambush tactics.

This is a weakness to all races in StarCraft. Protoss seem to have a better way of dealing with this in SC2 that they had in SC with warp in and while zergs had nydus canals, i haven't seen too many cases of them being used. Although zerg does have small and fast units. Protoss units are generally slow. So hitting a protoss expo fast and then moving on would occur before the protoss army got there just like with terrans.


Once the Terran is ready for the all-out offense, they move out in unison in attempt to first take dominance of the open ground in the middle of the map, then systematically advance the entire formation toward the enemy's base.

I must have missed this in Terran 101. I had no idea there was only one way to play terran. All these years I've been playing completely differently. It's a wonder I kept winning...


The one-shot is always there and can always be expected, it is only a matter of when and how well it is pulled off. The opponent's job is to delay the one-shot as much as possible with early rushes, hit-and-run tactics, and assaults on expos, until it is more favorable for the non-Terran, such as having defilers out.

Why would someone just let the other person pick away at them while they build up for some massive all out attack? To quote you "what kind of boring race would it be without some options on the side?" You seem to be saying that terrans only have this one option. What kind of boring race WOULD it be...


Vultures play a role in this because they fill the gap at early tier 2 before enough tanks and siege tech is ready for the full march all the while riding the same factory tech as tanks.

Sometimes I skip vultures cause it delays my getting the siege tank.


Basically they buy you the time you need while also doing some damage to the opponent at the same time.

They buy the time you need by wasting time being on the queue?


You would use vulture's speed to assault the enemy's mineral line while avoiding full-on confrontation as much as possible, killing workers even while taking some enemy fire. Vultures also provide the cushion needed during that gap in timing to keep units like zealots in check as well as reinforce the Terran defense against heavier assaults with spider mines.

All good uses of the vulture. And these will probably be the uses that the Reaper will be tasked with aside from the spider mine (although with proper timing you may be able to catch some units with the explosive charge if you can provide a good enough distraction)


Terran rely on their whole ground army more than any other race, but their full march is very deadly because it carries so much momentum.

The only race that really balances it's reliance on air and ground in starcraft is the zerg. The protoss could get scouts, corsairs, or carriers. Wraiths are more prevalent than Scouts. Corsairs are more prevalent than valkyries. Battlecruisers and Carriers are about even in prevalence. Terran and Protoss rely on air about the same amount.


To play Terran well at higher skill levels, it takes a lot of micro, a good understanding of the overall game-flow, and most importantly, great discipline.

Same goes for zerg and protoss...

[StarCraft144000]

That Corba is fine I like attack and go at the same time but if it can go a little faster it would be great for hit and run tactics.

[Indigent]

Hey Paragon can you summarize everything you just said in.. Less sentences?

[paragon]

No. I only want responses from people willing to read the whole thing anyways.

[Chris Benoit]

So you want no responses?

[paragon]

I figure remy will respond
and if he doesn't then i'll add another notch to my stick

[Nikzad]

I was under the impression that all the races needed firepower to win... by like... shooting at stuff. wow! nitpicking! how unique! ignoring the fact that Terran have the siege tank, AND the huge-ass Thor! Splendid!

(yes thats right I see you belittling my idea saying it belongs in noob land or whatever. hey maybe someone will power down you for saying my idea was dumb in different words? no, didn't think so http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1983.msg49504#msg49504).

Did you read my post? What does it talk about? Word choice. You called Sagathox's idea dumb, flat out, and put it down. Remy may have called your idea dumb, but he has more grace. You'd think that with 2637 posts (at the time of this post) you'd have picked up on subtleties and word choice. Apparently not.

Edit: You didn't PM me to complain about being powered down (and THAT'S the correct way to reference it, not "power downed")this time...realize that you deserved it or that it's not other peoples' faults that they don't like you?

I just threw in the ghost in the end as an afterthought.

Regardless of when you threw it in, it's there, don't try to backpedal just because you posted something inaccurate or weak and got called out on it.

I'll leave the rest for Remy, if he chooses to respond.


and if he doesn't then i'll add another notch to my stick

congratulations to you if he doesn't
http://plig.org/things/pictures/tn/arguing.med.jpg

[Indigent]

Dude, that thing is funny.

[Remy]

I was under the impression that all the races needed firepower to win... by like... shooting at stuff. And obviously there are always other ways to go but you seem to be saying "no that's dumb (yes thats right I see you belittling my idea saying it belongs in noob land or whatever. hey maybe someone will power down you for saying my idea was dumb in different words? no, didn't think so http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1983.msg49504#msg49504). Your idea of what terran strength is is not the end all be all of terran strategy. I give an example of someone else terrans COULD DO and you dismiss it. "Terrans CAN BE a mobile force" and "don't have to rely on momentum and firepower" were my exact words.

Every race shoot stuff and win, the end.  So all the races are the same?  When did I say only Terran has any firepower?  I belittle your idea when it's not good.  You seemed to have enjoyed much belittling all over the forums, now you have a problem when it's done to your ideas?  It is indeed true that my idea of what Terran strength is ain't the be all end all of anything, but your example with a ghost nuking to provide mobility sure as hell ain't nowhere close.  Your example sucked, which is exactly why I'm belittling it.  And it's noob city, not noob land, not noob town, not noob ville, I said noob city.


This is a rather vague term in this usage and you have not explained it as of yet. It's like saying "the strength of the protoss is in its pizazz. The typical reaction would be "um... what? care to explain?"

I've already explain in reply#122.  Your inability to comprehend the existence is your problem, don't confuse it with reality.  I sure am wondering why if it's so vague and you are so clueless why you didn't ask before your ealier reply.  The Terran's main strength is firepower and momentum, as opposed to Zerg's strength being flexibility.  Believe in your pizazz if you want, but I have no idea what that is.


I just threw in the ghost in the end as an afterthought. I could do it without a ghost too. And EVERYTHING about how units in starcraft 2 play is theoretical

And I or anyone else would know or care why you threw in the ghost is because......??  You threw in the ghost and with it a theorycrafted strat, a crappy one at that, and now you're wondering why I have no respect for that reply in particular.


The design of the Cobra lends itself to being a light tank that happens to hover. For just one of many examples, the Warrior is a British light tank that is often fitted with TOW anti-tank missiles.

They could make drones anti-armor if they wanted to.  Why would it matter from a game design point of view if an anti-armor unit is a light tank or not?  I still fail to see your point why a hover light tank can be an anti-armor unit but not a unit that was a hover bike in SC1 but could just as easily be made into a hover light tank in SC2.  M136 AT4 is the standard anti-tank missile used by infantry, so does it mean the marine should really be the anti-armor unit?
[/quote]


So you would change the vulture into an anti-armored role and give it the cobra model and call it either the cobra or the vulture. As vulture might confuse some people about the role and the change in appearance lets just go with cobra. So it's got the cobra's name, model, and role. How is it in any way related to the vulture?

On this one I actually don't really disagree to be completely honest.  As I said, you could really call it anything, but it is the cobra in SC2 for now.  I only bring up vulture to draw contrast between having move-and-shoot but slow ground speed vs stop-and-shoot with very high ground speed.  Since vulture is the fastest unit in all of SC, there is no better example.


Well what if you were, say, retreating for whatever reason. And hey, maybe you even have some siege tanks. These are pretty slow units relative to other units. But you are being chased down by stalkers for instance. They keep blinking up close to you and shooting then blinking again and shooting. Now, you could just group your cobras and siege tanks together and, since units will go the same speed if they are in the same group and told to move at the same time, you can have the siege tanks in front with the cobras behind them constantly shooting at the stalkers AND retreating at the same time. Sounds better than ordering the siege tanks to retreat and then microing the hell out of vulture/cobras that will have to stop/shoot/catch up to the stalkers whenever they blink. There's one use. I could think of more.

First of all, is the gay unit movement speed limiting pseudo-formation thing from War3 confirmed to be in SC2?  They couldn't come up with anything better?  Well, anyway, so your saying that the move-and-shoot would be a useful and valid mechanic when running away and when the anti-armor role of cobras don't matter one bit?  Yes, please do think of more.  <--- And this isn't me trying to be difficult, that was a genuine request, belive it or not, whatever.  But since you seem to be way more enthusiastic about the cobra than I am, you are much more likely to come up with something before I do.


And? I knew the reaper was a vulture replacement from the moment I saw them do their thing on the gameplay trailer the day starcraft 2 was announced. Since you know the reaper is a vulture replacement why would you "much rather they bring back the vulture in place of cobras." That would make 2 vultures.

No, because I said there would be a role change.  You can bring back anything, but you don't have to keep anything as they were in SC1.


Again. And? Funny sentence structure though. You state some great thing you believe you did (being the first) and then say "so what?" as if what you said doesn't matter at all. So... so what? Why even say it at all. By the way, my first impression of what warp in did from the initial game play trailer was spot on. Doesn't mean I was first. I'm sure lots of people correctly guessed what it did when they saw the game play trailer.

Wow really?  Sure didn't hear you voicing your "spot on" impression on the warp-in mechanic early on when people were confused as hell and all.  With your high post count and all, I would've thought you would've clarified everything for everyone else more than a few times.  In fact, I think I even kinda remember a thread where you didn't sound so sure about it, let me do some digging on that later.  But anyway, my whole point?  You think you are high above everyone else and you're extremely impressed with your own accomplishments(go read you own "Do you hate Paragon" thread, it starts with a long list of kissing your own ass, need I explain more?), but many people post great ideas and make great discoveries but no one makes a big deal about it like you do.  No one likes your attitude around here, why do you think you have such a low power level, especially compared to your post count?  I have personally never powered you down before, but I've powered you up plenty of times, yet this is the result.


I'm having difficulty finding where I did any of this in my post... Sure I've said that I've gotten things right in OTHER posts but none of those are in this thread.

Read the above paragraph, it kinda all tie in as one anyway.


YOU'RE bringing up the vulture. Note that my post prior to yours was all about how it sorta looked like a hover tank from star wars. Your post compared it to the vulture and how you would much rather have the vulture than the cobra summed up pretty good in this statement by you: "I much rather they bring back the vulture in place of cobras."
Also, no cussing. Rule 3. I bleep out mine.

What is this, read partial quote day?  You brought up the "reapers ain't vultures" thing many times before all this, some earlier in this thread and some elsewhere.  I much rather they bring back Apple that was good in place of Orage that appear to suck like hell.  Is "****" not allowed here?  I almost never say "f*ck," not even bleeped out.  But I say use the words "ass," "damn," and "*****" very often, "****" much less often although much more actual spoken language.  If "****" is now allowed I apologize sc2forums.


You are describing units and stats from a game that the cobra is not in, StarCraft. The cobra exists in StarCraft 2 where there have been significant changes to Terran. And sure, it's all only theory for StarCraft 2 but hey, that is where the cobra belongs. With the other units in the theory-crafting. And no race has really self-sufficient units, as they shouldn't, terrans do seem like a faster race in StarCraft 2 compared to StarCraft. Quicker AAG (Air Anti-Ground) provided by the banshee where before the only real AAG threat was the BC. Quicker AA/AG with the viking's two modes. Also, you forgot dropships in your assessment of terrans. Dropships can make terrans incredibly mobile in place of a slow and costly push/full march.

Although obviously not completely so, dragoons and hydras in good number are much more "all-purpose" than anything Terran, muta is another good example in the right situation, and carrier vs noobs -_-;;.  Since theorycrafting is stupid, I reference SC1.  Terran does indeed seem to be a lot better mobility wise in SC2, which is one of the main reasons why I'm very happy and pleased with Terran development so far.  And no I didn't forget dropships, I mentioned the tank drop.  You can't use the dropship in place of marching out normally, for two reasons.  One, because dropships themselve take up food and you can't have enough for all of your troops and have enough combat units.  And two, because when caught during transport the Terran would lose the fight on equal terms 90% of the time.  Terran units rely on good formation(unit placement and distribution) but also need to be ready to siege or stim at a moment's notice.  The Terran army is quite worthless and trashy when used in a click-and-send manner of play.


Reapers, banshees, vikings, all these are oriented towards quick assaults.

It is looking very hopeful for Terran in SC2 so far.  Back then, the biggest tool for a secondary assault was just the tank drop, now there seem to be more options.


Dropships are relatively fast. Just because a unit could just walk somewhere doesn't mean it should. Also, dropships offer you with more choices for where you want to deploy your troops rather than a direct assault on a choke point. Combine this with banshees, vikings, predators and you shouldn't have too much of a problem.

I've already explained this about two paragraphs up, where I mentioned dropships.  Dropships take up food, Terran base defense rely on units(which take up food), Terran army rely on a good mix of units more so than the other races, and this is more food.  You just don't have too much spare food to put into many dropships for hauling big squads around.  But like I said, it seems it would be much better this around for Terran, I agree with you on that.


This is a weakness to all races in StarCraft. Protoss seem to have a better way of dealing with this in SC2 that they had in SC with warp in and while zergs had nydus canals, i haven't seen too many cases of them being used. Although zerg does have small and fast units. Protoss units are generally slow. So hitting a protoss expo fast and then moving on would occur before the protoss army got there just like with terrans.

It is a weakness of Terran in particular.  Terran has limited static-D or automated base defense.  While those are not the be all end all in base defense, they buy you time.  Terran players are faced with the task of trying to balance units put into base defense and units used for assaults on the enemy.  Terran also have a harder time of quickly dividing its forces and moving to the hotspot quickly because the reliance on unit synergy and the need to ready fighting positions.  Zerg can just zip around since everything is fast and burst unit production is also fast, and Protoss have cannons which are all-purpose and a couple of hi-temps can also slow down light assaults considerably.


I must have missed this in Terran 101. I had no idea there was only one way to play terran. All these years I've been playing completely differently. It's a wonder I kept winning...

Believe what you will on that, but it's pretty common knowledge among Koreans who pay any attention to pro games, which is like a lot of Koreans.  The commentators make reference to the Terran's one-shot on a regular basis, such as when a Terran player isn't doing so well "but don't forget there is always the Terran one-shot, and that can always be very deadly and turn the tide of the game."


Why would someone just let the other person pick away at them while they build up for some massive all out attack? To quote you "what kind of boring race would it be without some options on the side?" You seem to be saying that terrans only have this one option. What kind of boring race WOULD it be...

Why?  Because it's game ending, it's that strong when done right and pulled off successfully.  It's very hard to handle when the Terran momentum is at its height.  If one person just need one clear shot because he can knock out that fast jabbing skinny ***** in a single punch why wouldn't he just look for his chance to land it once?  It's not really like the Terran doesn't do anything at all like you think, but it is the true strength of Terran so it makes more sense to push for it in most cases.  But I don't really expect you to know or understand this, 99% of the people I've seen on many different forums don't properly understand the game-flow of SC1 and what options are available to different races at different timings in a game.


Sometimes I skip vultures cause it delays my getting the siege tank.

That's perfectly fine, it's up to the individual and the situation at hand.  There is no golden rule that says Terran players have to get vultures every game.  I merely mentioned their advantages.


They buy the time you need by wasting time being on the queue?

Go read the thread about suggestions on new Zerg mechanics, and search for my idea of "Genetic Code Index."  I explained what timing rushes are there.  Basically tanks are relatively useless and not very scary between the time of putting down the first factory and the completion of siege tech research.  And around that timing, it's still early to march out with tanks, but you don't want the opponent's economy to go unchecked, so you use vultres who can get that done quick.  You don't need very many vultures, which is why it's an advantage because your riding the same tech but you bought yourself a brand new assault option.  Vultures are also very good against Protoss mid-game.


All good uses of the vulture. And these will probably be the uses that the Reaper will be tasked with aside from the spider mine (although with proper timing you may be able to catch some units with the explosive charge if you can provide a good enough distraction)

Yup, reapers will do just fine, lovely little guys.  I'm really not too excited about the time charge/grenade/bomb thing(what IS the real name for that?), but I'm sure will find some interesting uses for them later on when the game is more complete.


The only race that really balances it's reliance on air and ground in starcraft is the zerg. The protoss could get scouts, corsairs, or carriers. Wraiths are more prevalent than Scouts. Corsairs are more prevalent than valkyries. Battlecruisers and Carriers are about even in prevalence. Terran and Protoss rely on air about the same amount.

Yes, Zerg is the best.


Same goes for zerg and protoss...

Protoss require less intense micro than Terran or Zerg to be successful because there are less units and each unit is much more resilient compared to Terran or Zerg.  Zerg require less discipline due to the race's immense flexibility.  Zerg can be played more loosely because the player can quickly make up for minor mistakes or adapt to different situations quickly.  Zerg can quickly produce batches of replacement units quickly so every minor defeat at the frontlines is far less devastating.  Terran units are quite easily killed just like Zerg when compared to Protoss, yet they do not have the ability to pump out quick replacements, so when a Terran position fall it falls quickly and hard.  Which is why I said great discipline(which means also patience) is required to play Terran successfully at higher levels, because Terran needs to judge and analyze situations more carefully, more so than Protoss or Zerg.  Terran really can't afford to make hastey decisions because they have neither the most resilient units nor the best unit production capabilities.  Terran players need to be able to tell when taking a loss at an expo is not a disadvantage.  At lower levels anything can work, but against more skilled opponents Terran has a stricter style of play.

Whew~ that's everything.  I can finally go get some cigarettes.  Hope you're satisfied Paragon, you kept me away from my nicotine.  Sorry if there are numerous spelling or grammatical errors, I can't be bothered to check that now, I gotta go get cigarettes.

EDIT:  Hmmm, some posts got in the way between the time I started the reply, made dinner, ate dinner, and came back to finish.  The atmosphere here has turned to the strange everyone vs Paragon or at least it sure seem like people are edging me on to attack Paragon.  Just for the record, I don't hate Paragon at all.  I always post what I think, and my attitude and position toward something in most cases pertain only to the post or the thread.  I don't really care who posted what, it's what is posted that I give a damn about and argue for or against.  OK, now I really need to go get cigarettes.

[paragon]

wow! nitpicking! how unique! ignoring the fact that Terran have the siege tank, AND the huge-ass Thor! Splendid!

and zerg have guardians and protoss have colossi/had reavers. :O every race has a unit that deals high damage holy f**k.


Did you read my post? What does it talk about? Word choice. You called Sagathox's idea dumb, flat out, and put it down. Remy may have called your idea dumb, but he has more grace. You'd think that with 2637 posts (at the time of this post) you'd have picked up on subtleties and word choice. Apparently not.

Yes cover for the moderator who is being a **** and dont do s**t about the moderator who posts porn and racist comments in the same post/picture (JBL) I notice that picture is still up. http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1984.0
You can sugar coat **** as much as you want. It's still ****. How you phrase something doesn't matter when the intent is the same.


Edit: You didn't PM me to complain about being powered down this time...realize that you deserved it or that it's not other peoples' faults that they don't like you?

And it's not my fault people have dumb ideas. Oh sorry I mean all those ideas can perhaps work in fantasy land or noob city, whichever, where people let you build up to 200 supply or more and then walk up to their front door with a big ass army.


Regardless of when you threw it in, it's there, don't try to backpedal just because you posted something inaccurate or weak and got called out on it.

I was describing my thought process. And then I said that the ghost is not a pivotal part of the example so the example is the same without the ghost. I COULD have said "you're taking the most insignificant part of the example and capitalizing on it to find a weakness. anyone who thinks about it for more than a second should be able to realize that you don't need the ghost there and the rest of the units should be able to do the job fine." But I didn't. I was being nice about it.


I'll leave the rest for Remy, if he chooses to respond.

You do that. He's better at it.


congratulations to you if he doesn't

Having a debate about something and having a petty argument (which that statement refers to) is completely different. But hey, if you want to say all arguments/debates/discussions on the internet are retarded then why the f**k are you on a forum for a game that has not been released where a good 90% of the posts are arguments/debates/discussions. By your logic just about everyone here (including you) is retarded.

oh good, remy posted. i'll read that one now.

[Indigent]

Wow.. I need to get out of the line of fire.. Inocsent bystandard walking though... Don't hurt me...
*Runs away*

[paragon]

Every race shoot stuff and win, the end. So all the races are the same? When did I say only Terran has any firepower?

You said it was one of the strengths of the terrans. I say they all have that as a strength so saying that one of the terran strengths is firepower is like saying terrans have units that shoot. a zerg strength is firepower and a protoss strength is firepower. I never said that you said only terrans had firepower. I was saying that it's a strength of all the races.


I belittle your idea when it's not good. You seemed to have enjoyed much belittling all over the forums, now you have a problem when it's done to your ideas?

everyone b***hes at me for belittling people so when you do it I'm going to b***h at you.


It is indeed true that my idea of what Terran strength is ain't the be all end all of anything, but your example with a ghost nuking to provide mobility sure as hell ain't nowhere close. Your example sucked, which is exactly why I'm belittling it. And it's noob city, not noob land, not noob town, not noob ville, I said noob city.

Use some common sense. You took one insignificant part of the example and capitalized it to find fault. I said that the ghost doesn't matter to the example(though you have not gotten to that part of my post yet in this part of your post).


I've already explain in reply#122. Your inability to comprehend the existence is your problem, don't confuse it with reality. I sure am wondering why if it's so vague and you are so clueless why you didn't ask before your ealier reply. The Terran's main strength is firepower and momentum, as opposed to Zerg's strength being flexibility. Believe in your pizazz if you want, but I have no idea what that is.

Look closely. I replied to this post and then saw you had another post (#122) and replied to that post in the same post. So, all the replies to that post are below the replies to the prior post. So, at the time of posting that I had not read #122. I even said "as of yet" to rule in the possibility that you would explain it later. As for pizazz, note that I said "It's like saying..." thats a common phrase said before giving an example. And your reaction to it is the same as my reaction to you first saying momentum. As for not talking about it in my previous post. It was not an important part of your post so I didn't think it needed explanation at that point since I could just think of something that you could mean it to be and it wouldn't change anything else in the post. In your next post you made a big deal out of the momentum of terrans so it was better to get your definition of it rather that rely on what I thought you might mean by it.


And I or anyone else would know or care why you threw in the ghost is because......?? You threw in the ghost and with it a theorycrafted strat, a crappy one at that, and now you're wondering why I have no respect for that reply in particular.

How would you know if it's a crappy strat or not (take out the ghost by the way, I already have) have you tried this strat on starcraft 2? no? hmm well maybe it does work and maybe it doesn't. If it does work I'll enjoy beating people with it that much more.


They could make drones anti-armor if they wanted to. Why would it matter from a game design point of view if an anti-armor unit is a light tank or not? I still fail to see your point why a hover light tank can be an anti-armor unit but not a unit that was a hover bike in SC1 but could just as easily be made into a hover light tank in SC2. M136 AT4 is the standard anti-tank missile used by infantry, so does it mean the marine should really be the anti-armor unit?

They also put anti-tank missiles on pickup trucks. So yes, the possibilities are near-endless for what vehicle someone could put an anti-tank weapon on. But try to find an industrialized nation that uses pickup trucks as anti-tank vehicles. Based on their size they do not lend themselves to have enough armor to survive long enough to be effective against a tank. Same goes for a bike/hover bike. They are small vehicles that could not realistically have enough armor to get close enough to a tank to deal real damage to it before being blasted to pieces. Also, infantry use anti-tank weapons in urban environments. StarCraft 2 does not have this type of environment. It is not supported by its game play. You would have to have units that could hide in buildings or alleys or rocks to have a useful anti-tank infantry unit. Since nothing hides in starcraft 2, it is best to have an anti-tank unit be able to stand up to the punishment that would be receiving from the units they are meant to counter. So it shouldn't go to a marine and it shouldn't go to a bike. And don't play the "it's a game realism doesn't matter" card because your argument is using things from reality too.


First of all, is the gay unit movement speed limiting pseudo-formation thing from War3 confirmed to be in SC2? They couldn't come up with anything better? Well, anyway, so your saying that the move-and-shoot would be a useful and valid mechanic when running away and when the anti-armor role of cobras don't matter one bit? Yes, please do think of more. <--- And this isn't me trying to be difficult, that was a genuine request, belive it or not, whatever. But since you seem to be way more enthusiastic about the cobra than I am, you are much more likely to come up with something before I do.

I was assuming stalkers are something other than light units. They aren't infantry and they are dragoon-like so I would guess medium. Being anti-armored could mean large and/or medium units. So the fact that cobras are anti-armor would matter. But whatever. I could give the immortal example but then you could say "well the hardened shield could be activated by cobra attack" so I won't go there. Lets say siege tanks are about to be attacked by ultralisks (yes, I know we have no idea whether or not they will be in the game but every other example is just a theory so why the f**k not. for all I care it could be a large zerg ground unit with melee attack or even better, ranged attack and not called ultralisk). If any ground unit that the terrans