Should the Wraith Return?

[Hadean]

No announcement or confirmation of it, yet it was probably the single coolest air unit the Terrans had. How could they NOT include the wraith?! And that banshee had best not be the replacement, nor should the viking.

[Major Willy]

They're scrapping Wraiths I think. There's the cloakable Banshee now which will make up for the Wraith's crappy ground attack and the Viking in ship form will take the role of air AA.

[BaneOfHumanity]

So the banshee is going to be like a mini bomber now?...

[Hadean]

The banshee is a knock off of the Orca Bomber / Fighter series from C&C. I want my Wraith. That thing was sleek, sexy and original. And theres no reason they couldn't make the wraith a little better against ground forces. Maybe have it shoot stronger lasers or even shoot it's missiles at ground forces like it did in Beta SC.

[zeratul11]

currently terran has only 4 air units, battlecruiser, dropship, and banshee, and viking fighter. (3 attacking air units)
protoss have temepest, phoenix, star relic, wapr rays, phase prism, and observer. (4 attacking air units)

so like terran has yet to reveal one more new airships. maybe it would be the new wraith or the new vessel.

[Major Willy]

Phase Prism doesn't count as air units now?

[zeratul11]

how come? its flying and it serves as a transport too (terran dropship?).

[Major Willy]

Oh you bugger. You edited your post a few minutes after I posted.

I saw that.

[zeratul11]

ah ok i actually forgot typing it. and i edited it before reading your post. sorry.

[Major Willy]

Aw. I thought I was going to feel powerful for a second.
You stole that. You stole that right from my heart and soul, leaving me just a shattered and broken shell.

...No I'm not 'emo'.

[Hadean]

Major Willy, I just realized, the Vulture portrait is based off a Blizzard artist known as Samwise. Lol.

Anyways, though. The wraith is seen in some of the backgrounds available so I'd like to think they're atleast considering it. But I expect to see it in the final copy or i'll be pissed.

[JudicatorPrime]

I hope there's another Terran air unit, there's a unit in the cinematic trailer that doesn't look like the Viking or Banshee... atleast to me it don't.

[burkid]

that looked like a scout to me, but that doesnt make sense since the scouts are scrapped.

[Itsmyship]

Neh....I personally won't miss the Wraith. Most likely they'll reveal another ship though, most likely a fighter.

[Exvasion]

I like having one air unit for ground and one for air (I'm assuming vikings are good at air-to-air). Instead of just having an all purpose fighter like the wraith who really was only mediocre at both. Though they are iconic I guess for the terrans.

[JudicatorPrime]

that looked like a scout to me, but that doesnt make sense since the scouts are scrapped.


Meh, I thought it looked bulky to be a scout, and also it seemed like a Terran world so...

[zeratul11]

im 90% sure that the flying unit in the terran world is a BANSHEE.

[burkid]

it is, i just watched it again. from the way it was flying, it looked like it had wings, but those were the propellers.

[zeratul11]

yes and you can see the missiles pod too like that of the banshee in images.

[burkid]

all the other times i watched that, i just assumed it was a scout so i didnt really look at it lol.

[zeratul11]

thats funny. no way in the world i can imagine that thing as a scout. looks really terran to me.
first time i saw it, my first impressions is that its the new wraith. and the moment i saw the banshee picture i quickly knew that the one in the trailer is a banshee without watching it again. ^^

[Dreadnought]

Wraiths were so useless for their cost. They couldn't deal with corsairs and they did virtually no damage vs ground units. Mutalisks and Scourge were far better. Terrans need a better anti air unit then the valkryie and a better ground attacker then the Wraith.. hence they made the Banshee and the Viking. I think the BC is taking over as ground + air attacker..
Dropships seem alot weaker now.. Only able to carry 4 units? Its more realistic for their size but cmon.. this game has never been all about realism. Its been about balance, fun, and diversity.

[Hadean]

Mediocre? Maybe at anti-ground, but the Wraith excelled in taking out air. Especially in co-ordinated cloaked packs. That was the one terran thing you had to fear in the air next to En masse BCs. One minute you're calmly making a drop, next minute "Hm. Thats funny the ground-art seems to be phasing out - Oh ****."

*edit* Couldn't deal with corsairs? Nothing could deal with corsairs cept for other corsairs and sometimes BCs. And if they were cloaked (which is what gives it such a helping of power) it could rape virtually any air unit and was the best for anti-air harassment, only beaten by 6 valks taking out your entire Zerg Supply line.

[ArchLimit]

I liked Wraiths for its surprise attacks. They were pretty versatile. Let's see how the Banshee holds up...

[Itsmyship]

Pft....with Viking and Banshee, Wraith can go into the scrapheap for all I care. I never liked Wraiths, Goliaths and Valks were all i needed for anti air.

[Exvasion]

Mediocre? Maybe at anti-ground, but the Wraith excelled in taking out air.


The wraith was only good at taking out air when it was cloaked though, that's the point, if it was detected or became uncloaked it got raped fast against basically any air unit. Surprise attacks are great and all but I want an air unit that can hold its own in aerial combat without being cloaked.

[Joneagle_X]

How do these Banshees fly in space without thrusters? You can't move with rotors if there's no air....

[burkid]

the same way mutalisks move in space by flapping their wings, and the same way guardians move... in general.

[Remy]

It's pretty clear that the banshee is the wraith replacement.  You can secretly call it wraith while everyone else call it banshee if you want.

I don't know why you would complain when banshee presumably has greater capabilities vs ground AND get to keep stealth.  Not to mention the coexistence of wraith AA, goliath charan booster, and valks was a design flaw.  They have eliminated overlapping responsibilities, encouraged unit mixing, and upgraded individual units.

Any serious Terran player really shouldn't complain, nor would they.  If you can't see that they've just upgraded everything for you, I don't think you really understood Terran.  You now have a better goliath, a better valkyrie, and yes even a better wraith.

If you still don't understand, read here http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/index.php?topic=1222.msg33850#msg33850

[Major Willy]

I'm actually happy with the new Terran Air and I'm sure the Vikings in their ship form will be excellent AA.

I will miss Wraiths a tad though. Goliaths meh.

[Hadean]

My only concern is that the Viking in air will just be another Valk.

And I suppose you're right Remy. I read the other post as well, I suppose I romanticize them too much due to the cinematics and how effective they were for SC1 Terrans. I suppose a replacement to help beef up terrans is nice it's just. Why couldn't they just beef up the coolest looking air unit in SC1?

*edit* And as for redundancy. I didnt consider it as such. i felt that each of the AA units you could choose from had their own take on anti-air use. Therefore depending on the player that you were you could adapt a unit into your AA role. Throwing them all into one IMO sorta is annoying. Because theres no strategic thinking about what to build it's just: "I better build some AA! What to choose - Oh wait. I only have one choice."

*another edit* The wraiths would get raped by any air unit? Are you on crack? Sure. One on one with any air unit it'll more than likely lose, but in packs, given it's damage type, it's damage amount and it's rate of fire it was the deadliest thing in a pack short of sairs. Bro, a marine by itself was useless too, but 24 marines vs 18 hydras, guess who won? (I'll slap you in the teeth if you say Hydras)

[Exvasion]

Well I don't want to get slapped in the teeth so I'll concede, the wraith was indeed effective aa in a group. I do want a different air unit though.

Also, I seriously doubt that either air unit will be anything like the valkyrie. At least that is my hope, I don't want the same units from Starcraft 1 just with different names.

[Hadean]

How bout the same units with the same names? :D

I'm not saying it's mechanic's will be similar to the valk, I'm saying it'd be about as effective in the air as a valk (which IMHO was slim to none)

[LJYLJ]

Why dont people realise that viking as anti-air and banshee as air - ground it to easy to deal with.
one of the big things about wraiths was the element of surprise (and btw, wraiths is the best way to deal with devourers) that the first second they came as a flying mirror and ruined ur whole airfleet, then they started raping ur xpos...
so in my opinion wraiths is an awesome unit, (im winning alot on icCup and BwCleague with wraith hit and run tactics, and they work wonders for containing ppl in the start)

[Remy]

Actually devourer would be the counter to wraith, both in game design and practice. Wraith can't even cloak once it gets devourer's acid spore on it, basically always. But it's not like you'll have much success abusing wraith's cloak against Zerg anyway.

[10-Neon]

I am just worried that the new Terran air will be expensive. If nothing else, the Wraith was good because it was cheap for something that could scare your enemy into adopting entirely different strategies.

[AdmiralAckbar]

Wraiths were ugly units and weak too im glad its not one of the units thats coming back, as only a certain number of old units will return the wraith is the most expendable of all the units.
*another edit* The wraiths would get raped by any air unit? Are you on crack? Sure. One on one with any air unit it'll more than likely lose, but in packs, given it's damage type, it's damage amount and it's rate of fire it was the deadliest thing in a pack short of sairs. Bro, a marine by itself was useless too, but 24 marines vs 18 hydras, guess who won? (I'll slap you in the teeth if you say Hydras)

hydras arent on the same playing field as marines because the hydralisks damage type is weak to marines. and a "pack" wraiths will be beaten by a group of air units of any type if both "packs" are equal price or pop.

[LJYLJ]

Wraiths were ugly units and weak too im glad its not one of the units thats coming back, as only a certain number of old units will return the wraith is the most expendable of all the units.
*another edit* The wraiths would get raped by any air unit? Are you on crack? Sure. One on one with any air unit it'll more than likely lose, but in packs, given it's damage type, it's damage amount and it's rate of fire it was the deadliest thing in a pack short of sairs. Bro, a marine by itself was useless too, but 24 marines vs 18 hydras, guess who won? (I'll slap you in the teeth if you say Hydras)

hydras arent on the same playing field as marines because the hydralisks damage type is weak to marines. and a "pack" wraiths will be beaten by a group of air units of any type if both "packs" are equal price or pop.



mix a bunch of devourer with any airunit of ur choice (from zerg side) then engage them into an army of wraiths + some vessel...devourers will get raped like a 11yo withe girl in the ghetto

[Remy]

You are seriously mistaken if you think wraith is a better AA option than the devourer.

[DontHate]

dude... what you're saying is so random. Basicly ur saying mix a bunch of zerglings and hydras vs some zealots + some bc's.... zerglings will get owned.

of course the devs will get owned if there is a science vessel with them.

[PancakeChef]

I just hope the Terran get an air fighter unit other than the Viking, like the Protoss have their Phoenix. The Viking also doesn't start out as being able to transform into the air unit, I recall they said it was a researchable upgrade.

[venado]

blizzard is removing all classical units... Protoss only keep their zealot and probes... and maybe the reavers

[Remy]

Not really, Venado.

Returning units for Protoss: Probe, Zealot, High Templar, Dark Templar, Observer, Reaver. Twilight Archon practically counts as an Archon from what we have so far.

Returning units for Terran: SCV, Marine, Medic, Siege Tank, Ghost, Battle Cruiser. There is more to be revealed for Terran, so that might no be all of it.

Returning units for Zerg: Zergling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk. Zerg has basically not been revealed, so we're most likely gonna see the return of more classic SC1 Zerg units than what we have so far.

[Quanta]

Wraiths were among my favorite units in SC1. Granted, their ground attack was lacking but they had good AA and cloaked wraiths could do severe damage to an enemy fleet if they didn't get a detector to the location quick enough.

If they were looking for a way to give terran a better anti ground air unit then they could have simply made to different wraiths. Like actual fighters which can have their munitions customized for specific tasks. If you need air supremacy then you'd send in fighters loaded with AA missiles. If you need to destroy targets on the ground load them up with bombs.

Allow players to choose to build a standard wraith with AG lasers and AA missiles or a wraith with AG missiles and AA lasers. It would be similar to Zerg choosing between Guardians and Devs.

[burkid]

thats why there are 2 specialized air units quanta. vikings and banshees. one is loaded with missiles, and the other is loaded with bombs.

[DontHate]

Wraiths were among my favorite units in SC1. Granted, their ground attack was lacking but they had good AA and cloaked wraiths could do severe damage to an enemy fleet if they didn't get a detector to the location quick enough.

If they were looking for a way to give terran a better anti ground air unit then they could have simply made to different wraiths. Like actual fighters which can have their munitions customized for specific tasks. If you need air supremacy then you'd send in fighters loaded with AA missiles. If you need to destroy targets on the ground load them up with bombs.

Allow players to choose to build a standard wraith with AG lasers and AA missiles or a wraith with AG missiles and AA lasers. It would be similar to Zerg choosing between Guardians and Devs.

cloak wraiths then run into minerals and kill all scvs with missles :O.

[PancakeChef]

Well the thing is with the Viking, does it come from air unit producer or ground unit vehilce producer building? I mean it will just start out as a ground unit. They don't initially start out with being able to transfrom into the air version.

So that means if they only have the banshee and viking for a anti air fighter or whatever the only thing to make would be to make the ground vikings and then research the ability to transform into the air unit. So you would not have a initial air unit like a mutalisk or phoenix. See the point I am trying to make?

[JudicatorPrime]

Bleh, I miss the Wraith... good unit. Hopefully they'll "Transmit Coordinates" over to Blizzcon and we hear from it there.

[Remy]

PancakeChef, the viking is built from the factory, you have to research the air form. But it's actually not something to worry about, nor is wraith lower tech than viking air form like you seem to believe.

The factory is a pre-req for the starport. Both the wraith and viking air form fall around the same place on the tech tree, based on SC1. As a matter of fact, all early air is roughly about the same, none are at the beginning of tier 2, they all require one more building(stargate, starport, spire).

Factory --> Starport --> Control Tower --> Cloaked Wraith
(wraith inaccessible) (wraith buildable) (cloak researchable) (ta da~)

Factory --> Factory addon-on or Starport --> Viking Air Form
(viking buildable) (viking air form researchable) (ta da~)

By the above example viking would actually be better because even though the air form and wraith are both at the same tech depth, you could already be building vikings as soon as factory goes up. So by the same tech at which wraith was previously available, you would have more air form vikings around, because wraith production starts at starport-tech while viking production starts at factory-tech.

However, this is just a simplified example to make a point to show you why wraith isn't lower tech PancakeChef. There could still be other factors such as requirement of add-on at starport or an additional research to make viking air form better AA. None of which have been mentioned so I didn't bother with it for now, but there is still some possibility. But in any case, wraith doesn't have the advantage over viking as you thought so.

[naduo]

i personally would like to see a new battleship, that way it seen more like fleet.
of cuz i also want the wraith back too, Terran is my FaV

[PancakeChef]

Well Remy, it doesn't nesscarily have to be a wraith and its not the place in the tech tree that concerns me its the fact you have build the base unit first, then have the research upgrade and then transform the unit into it instead of just having a air fighter you can just build off the line of a production building like a mutalisk or phoenix. That and it seems like the viking is more of a multi purpose unit than a basic air fighter unit but then again that could also be how they are trying to make each race more unique etc.

Just my personal preference though I would like the Terran to have a basic air fighter unit, ill say again doesn't have to be a wraith could be a whole new unit.

[Shadowdragon]

Never used wraiths. Vultures made better scouts, and I would much rather spend the money on getting science vessels (something I used quite a bit).

[Remy]

PancakeChef, it is still pretty much the same since the air form upgrade would be universal and you don't have to do it for each individual viking. Where you would need to take time to build the starport, you would just research the air form instead. And since you can amass vikings before you have the air form research completely, it should still allow you to have more air at around the same timing when a wraith would be available.

And the multi-purpose aspect of vikings is not really a drawback as you can go back to ground form to avoid turrets and spores. Where you would have relied on wraith for tactical air strikes hitting ground from air, you would just use banshee instead. And banshee is presumably much better at it than wraith. Although it's not certain, there's really no way that splash damage missile volleys will be weaker than wraith's measly 8-damage toy gun.

[Hadean]

*edit* Nm. You said banshee.

And bro. Nothing gets the blood going better when you have a hot-key'ed group of 12 wraiths cloaked and you use it for wiping out that drop that was supposed to cripple your economy. Or wiping out those carriers moving in to reinforce a battle. Theres just something so enjoyable and sinister about being able to assault ambush giggle and retreat. And I dont care if the viking handles AA or if the Banshee handles AG and can cloak.

I WANT SOMETHING THAT CAN CLOAK AND RAPE AIR! RAAAAH!!

[Remy]

I can't really argue against the sheer sweetness of wraith's cloaked AA, just can't do it. But I'm still looking at the big picture and see a stronger Terran than before. A lot of issues have been address, especially that of valk's inadequacy.

Wraith will be missed, but really don't think cloaked AA is gonna happen for Terran in SC2, considering how nice everything else is so far.

[Hadean]

Meh. I just cant believe they would leave behind the symbolic unit of Starcraft man. Like someone before me already said, they used it for the bloody desktop icon man! Thats literally iconic!

[Remy]

Now that, I am glad about. It better be a Zerg unit as the icon this time.

[burkid]

im gonna laugh when the icon ends up being a soul hunter. haha.

[PancakeChef]

Well now, with Blizzcon underway two new air units came up on the tech tree, one being the Predator anti-air fighter.

So the speculation that the viking will be replacing as terrans anti air fighter seems to be have blown out of the water with this new information. Personally I am very glad to see this and not too surprised either since as I said the Viking seemed more like a multi purpose unit. I'm very glad though to see the terran have a fighter similar to the Phoenix and Mutalisk the catch though is it can't attack ground right but that is what banshess are for. The starports are also suppose to be able to upgrade and be able to produce air units WHILE lifted off.

[burkid]

banshees cloak isnt personal cloak, like the wraiths, its a cloaking field that works on nearby units too. still costs energy though.

[Hadean]

Any description on what the pred looks like? Cool name btw.

[PancakeChef]

As far as I know the only thing known about it so far is that it comes from the Starport is an air fighter and has no ground attack.

Also makes sense because since the Starport can produce while lifted off, the addition of a air fighter to be produced along with the banshee from it etc, will make it a viable assualt platform.

[Hadean]

If any mod could close this topic for me. I'd appreciate it. Since we now know theres no Wraith, nor a possibility of getting one (unless it's like an extra unit in the map editor) not much point in having a topic.

[surr]

DO you think the much respected terran should return?? I think the terrans are sort of lacking that kind of air to air fighter.. somehow the viking sky form dosent seem to be enough to counter air. Please vote and discuss. :)

[-LT-]

It should return but it won't. :(

[surr]

care to tell me why?

[Smokiehunter]

well it is being split between the preditor and the banshee at the moment so I like it being replaced by other units.

[surr]

predator... oh ya hmm i never understood what it does can u explain it properly please?

[LordKerwyn]

The predator is a AA only fighter with an attack similar to the corsairs but slower and it has ability to transfrom into an intercept form (the predator cant attack while in this form) that probally (i dont think anyone knows exactly how it works) can intercept only a certain number of projectiles (not just missles) per second.


As for the topic atm i voted no because the terrans have no sole air to air unit the units they do have are ambiguoes enough to slow down/stop air attacks while still doing something else.

[freedom23]

lol wraiths arent suppose to return coz thats one of the former weaklinks for the terran back then for support with the BCs so now they build the new Predator (ATA) + interceptor ability turning into somekind of defensive unit protecting a certain area or radius base on what ive read on some site and Banshee = cloak + good air to ground atk for raiding.... Vikings are the new wraith type missile atkers if im not mistaken... ;D

[ArchLimit]

I liked the Wraith but it was one of those units that just seemed... I dunno, sorta boring after a while? I dunno if that makes any sense. They were just kinda too weak for me unless u'r doing the sneak surprise attack thing, especially on miners. Banshee should do that wonderfully, and Predator sounds like it'll be pretty sweet in its own way. I prefer the additional roles offered by these two new units as opposed to just the one wraith, who also happens to absolutely suck at ground attacks. So yea, I'm willing to let it go IMO.

[zeratul11]

no! we have the more powerful and exciting predator now.

[DontHate]

i wish the wraith would return but it's not going to be very usefull. the viking has it's anti air and the banshee has it's cloak. it'll be fun to play him in the map maker tho.

[capthavic]

IMO the wraith wasn't that useful, and especially so now. They have viking, banshee, battlecruiser, and predator. The wraith would be a waste.

[-LT-]

care to tell me why?
It's already replaced by other units. ;D

[hillzagold]

i dont see how a wraith could stand up to the to the protoss thing...

[Gold]

i dont see how the predator and the vicking can exist in the same army.
dont they both do the same thing?
i would really like to see the predator becuase if its got a better model than the banshee (which i reallly like) then i would rather the banshee have the predator model and get rid of terrans having so much AA

[kenshin72]

wraiths are the thing in the past we have to move on guys

[Hunter]

Wraiths won't return.. but the terran fleet get's other, I think better units.

[freedom23]

the answer to your poll number and is already filled in dividedly by the form of banshee and viking

[Snubble]

i dont see how the predator and the vicking can exist in the same army.
dont they both do the same thing?
i would really like to see the predator becuase if its got a better model than the banshee (which i reallly like) then i would rather the banshee have the predator model and get rid of terrans having so much AA


The Viking can also land and attack ground units so its not just an AtoA fighter. I also think I remember reading somewhere that the Viking gets a damage bonus against "Armored" units and thats why Pardo mentioned that they were good at taking out Capital ships. The Predator however shoots a burst of 4 lasers in rapid succession that only do 4 damage each. This will make them pretty weak against heavily armored ships, but stronger then the Viking against lightly armored fliers.

I think theres room for both.

[Gold]

so its an anti anti air?
and the vicking is more or less the same as a warp ray in air mode.
still seems odd to me, seems like to much anti air, between vickings, missle turrets and most other range units there jsut dosnt seem to be much point in predators.

[Itsmyship]

It should not be in SC2. In SC1 it had a horrible horrible ground attack, and even in anti-air, the Goliath did just as much dmg and was far cheaper, and it had a decent ground attack. Now you say "they gots Cloak." Well, in reality, Cloak is far better suited to the Banshee than it really ever was for the Wraith anyway. Predator, Banshee, and Viking are all far better suited they job than the Wraith ever was.

[MarineCorp]

I'm really happy the way it is at the moment it looks quite promising and the Wraith of course has a horrible ground attack but a excellent air a attack but now it's SC2 it's time to re-imagine things and i am happy with the Banshee even though it looked like the Orca from C&C and i'm also happy with Viking (Fighter mode)

[Protosscommander]

Much better if the wraith is gonna be return. :)

[Steve22x]

There's no real versatile air fighter like the protoss have with the phoenix (Im assuming it can attack ground as well). If the wraith will not make a return I think the predator should be allowed to cloak as its role as support suggests.

[hillzagold]

what does the predator interceptor mode work on? phoenix missles? BC lasers? warp ray lasers? carrier interceptors?

it would be stupid if it only worked on turrets and vikings

[LordKerwyn]

All blizzard has said is the intecept mode will work on prohectiles not just missles. (I dont think they have completely decided which projectiles though)

[LJYLJ]

so its an anti anti air?
and the vicking is more or less the same as a warp ray in air mode.
still seems odd to me, seems like to much anti air, between vickings, missle turrets and most other range units there jsut dosnt seem to be much point in predators.




in starcraft1 terran got marines, goliath, wraith, valkyrie, vessel (for zerg), ghost, turret, BC witch can damage air and in pro games muta's are still a viable problem you know...

what i would like to see is more anti-air with CONCUSSIVE damage since wraiths, goli, turret all do 50% dmg vs muta (all this if mutas still are the only air-rush threat)

[Quanta]

I loved the wraith and enjoyed cloacked raids against enemy fleets and resource gatherers but I don't think it should return. The Banshee will be far better at raiding bases and the Predator/Viking will be excellent anti air support.

[Joneagle_X]

The wraith was a single unit stretched to cover a number of purposes.

It was meant to be a base-raider, anti-air unit, cloaked assassin, and cheap attack plane.

The Valkyrie was an attempt to rectify its plight, but it didn't really solidify Terran air too much.

It seems the Terran race is aiming to take control of the skies with a more versatile and diverse air strategy.

[BirdofPrey]

I liked the wraith but I think these new units will work out nicely.

[PSIchotic]

Whatever the wraith can do; the banshee can do better, and valkyries were better for anti air anyway.

[Hadean]

i'm gonna laugh so hard when SC2 comes out, cause i'm going to make a map using the wraiths in the map editor vs every other unit. And i'll wait for everyone to say "Oh. Wait. Yeah, we should have kept the wraith." It's superior to the Pred in every single way man. And I guarantee by the end of testing they'll nerf the pred because from the sounds of it that intercept may be too imbalanced. All you'd need to do would be mass 20 Preds and bring 6 battlecruisers and those battlecruisers would never be touched.

[Darktemplar_L]

I voted Yes but different unit with same role. I feel that the wraith is valuable to the Terran army, and people use wraiths with ease when thinking of strategies. the Predator seems basically useless, and the Banshee can only attack ground so, what do you ban a banshee up with that doesn't cost a bunch of resources, thats also able to fly?

[hillzagold]

i'm gonna laugh so hard when SC2 comes out, cause i'm going to make a map using the wraiths in the map editor vs every other unit. And i'll wait for everyone to say "Oh. Wait. Yeah, we should have kept the wraith." It's superior to the Pred in every single way man. And I guarantee by the end of testing they'll nerf the pred because from the sounds of it that intercept may be too imbalanced. All you'd need to do would be mass 20 Preds and bring 6 battlecruisers and those battlecruisers would never be touched.
odd, i was under the impression that the viking and wraith do the same fcking thing

[Hadean]

Yeah, you know I was too. Theres so many similarities. Like how one transforms into a ground mech, and one cloaks. Isn't that so ****ing similar? Omg. You know what else is similar? The ghost and the marine. One has stim and the other one drops nukes, zomg Blizz be original!

****ing nub.

[BirdofPrey]

I need to see more of the pred to make a definative decision but with the viking seems to be an apt replacement and the Banshee is the bomber I always wanted

[hillzagold]

Yeah, you know I was too. Theres so many similarities. Like how one transforms into a ground mech, and one cloaks. Isn't that so f**king similar? Omg. You know what else is similar? The ghost and the marine. One has stim and the other one drops nukes, zomg Blizz be original!

f**king nub.
well, at leat blizzard is original enough to not give them the same attack. oh wait, they did!!!11oneone!1!111!

[ijffdrie]

both the wraith and the viking excel at air and can be used to target ground, the vikings use is as blizzard originally implented the wraith to be used

[Hadean]

Two scout looking missiles i similar to the Wraiths missile attack? K. Explain further, please.

[hillzagold]

they dont look like scount missles

[Hadean]

they look like big yellow torps, i remember it from the video at blizzcon, with the Viks attacking BCs

[AdmiralAckbar]

The wraith and everyones personal favorite unit from SC original should return, who needs a sequal when you could have a remake!

Torpedos are underwater weapons, vikings shoot missles.

[Sir_Wezlo]

I personally say no because you could use them for pratically everything and the fact that they could cloak made things easier. The Wraith is now being replaced by more modern Terran air strikers. Sure it may make things more complicated now that the Terrans don't have a Bread & Butter A-A and A-G attack aircraft thats cheap and can cloak. But from what I've seen so far about StarCraft II so far they're focusing more on strategy rather than brute force and numbers for both the Terrans and Protoss. The Zerg on the other hand we'll find out their end of the bargan when they release the unknown terrors that maybe some of us hope that we would never see... Blizzard knows how to make a damn good game, I'm putting my trust in them to make a hell of a game, even if that means replacing some units IMO and remember, Blizzard knows what the Terrans and Protoss have to defend against... we don't fully know yet...

[hillzagold]

they look like big yellow torps, i remember it from the video at blizzcon, with the Viks attacking BCs
it doesn't matter how they look, it's the same attack

[Hunter]

Two scout looking missiles i similar to the Wraiths missile attack?

But they are much faster, and I think cause more damage. And look nice too. lol

[Wrathbringer]

I voted no for the return of the Wraith. Why? Because Terran need some NEW UNITS. If they brought back the Wraith, then that would essentially kill off the Banshee and the Predator, and I do NOT want to buy a prettier version of SC1. This is SC2, where there are supposed to be completely NEW units, not just revamps of older ones.

[Hadean]

Torpedos are underwater weapons, vikings shoot missles.


You're officially an idiot. A torp is not a torp because it's underwater, a torp is a torp because of it's propulsion. Since you cant have combustion underwater, not a stready stream of it anyways, they had to use another means. And oo isnt that crazy. You cant have combustion in space either.

[hominiddd]

Wraith in SC1 was only good for sneak attack, but most players know this strategy so they always have a detector or two such as cannons around. Since wraith was so weak against ground a couple of cannons can take out a group size wraith. Not only were they weak against ground they were also fragile. I think they have something like 120 hp. Their only redeeming quality is that they have cloak. In my opinion their A-A was only average. They lose to most other mass air. I can't think of anything they might beat except maybe against some capital ships but otherwise late game they are useless. The Viking seems to be a better replacement. They seem to be at least as powerful as wraiths in A-A but is more versatile with their ground form which I guess would do more damage than wraiths ever did.

In SC1 I never used wraiths all that much because they are simply too easily countered. Heck a couple of marines and a few medics (with detectors) easily takes out a group of 12 wraiths. That's just not a good trade! I need not mention dragoons, other air, hydras...etc...

[Smokiehunter]

the wraith was really only a raiding unit with a bit of anti air. the banshee has replaced the raiding 10 fold and the anti air has been replaced with the predator (haven't seen it fight so can't judge how well it replaced it). so the wraith has been split to ensure the use of multiple units (looks like blizz is heading in that direction) but fully replaced its slot has been filled and I wont miss it that much.

O and you can have combustion in space you just need to have the oxygen with you. and you usually are fighting on a planet any way (and if your not you are using lasers).

[GrahamTastic]

There is no need to have the wraiths in the game at this point. The Predator takes over their anti-air capabilities, and the Banshees take over their stealth role.

[BirdofPrey]

Sure the wraith was a good unit but the new ones are better. It has been replaced

[roderek]

i think the wraiths in SC1 were pretty good idea and maybe they were fragile cause seemed that cloak was an advantage, unfortenately in the not so big maps on SC1 u cant really use this ability a lot cause when u start to get onto some unprotected units, detector came really quick so u had to micro a lot, its a great unit if u know how to use it, but i agree in wich is not made to mass... my humble opinion would be nice a comeback but with better weapons, crazy idea what if wraiths could create ilusions maybe like a projection or something that works just like the allucination of high templars

[manaplague]

Wraith has been made useless by the new units like the Banshee and Predator. Even cloaking went to the Banshee.

[StarCraft144000]

No the Preator is better.

[PSIchotic]

I voted no for the return of the Wraith. Why? Because Terran need some NEW UNITS. If they brought back the Wraith, then that would essentially kill off the Banshee and the Predator, and I do NOT want to buy a prettier version of SC1. This is SC2, where there are supposed to be completely NEW units, not just revamps of older ones.


Amen to that.

A lot of people here sound like those old farts who still think vinyl is better than CD 'cause it sounds better. Fact is it doesn't, but they're just too stubborn to realize it and consider something different might be better.

[Hadean]

And you're the kind of guy who thinks these new japanese cars look better than a good ol fashion corvette or mustang.

[PSIchotic]

And you're the kind of guy who thinks these new japanese cars look better than a good ol fashion corvette or mustang.


They don't look better, but they sure are more reliable and fuel efficient

[BirdofPrey]

Not really a comparisson since the new units look better AND are more efficient

[DontHate]

i'll miss the wraith, but i really like the look of it, especcially the ***** gun. it looks very space age.

[surr]

i really cant see how the predator would work. the missles it intercepts porbaly move fast like swarms of interceptors.. so it would be like teleportaiton trying to get to the lasers/missles/ whatever the zergs got now.

[PSIchotic]

Torpedos are underwater weapons, vikings shoot missles.


You're officially an idiot. A torp is not a torp because it's underwater, a torp is a torp because of it's propulsion. Since you cant have combustion underwater, not a stready stream of it anyways, they had to use another means. And oo isnt that crazy. You cant have combustion in space either.



I'm sorry to burst your bubble buddy, but AdmiralAckbar is absolutely correct. Let me refer to wikipedia


Self-propelled torpedoes

From World War I onwards, the word torpedo was used only for self-propelled projectiles that travelled under or on water.

The first working prototype of the self-propelled torpedo we know today was created by a chance commission placed by Giovanni Luppis, an Austrian naval officer from Fiume (today Rijeka, Croatia), a port city of the Austrian Empire, on Robert Whitehead, an English engineer who was the manager of a Fiume factory.

Methods of propulsions have included:
1 Compressed air
2 Heated torpedoes
3 Wet-heater
4 Compressed oxygen
5 Steam
6 Wire driven
7 Flywheel
8 Electric propulsion
etc.

You should really double check your "know how" before you flame somebody...

[Associate]

they should introduce something thats new but still retains wraith's ability to cloak and are capable of engaging ground and air units, the kind of concept they have right now, a separate anti air and ground aircraft will cost the terran side many resources and supplies than a single all around unit. plus it reduces the effort to micromanage your forces

[Yrcrazypa]

If it doesn't return, I hope it will be in the map editor, along with all other non-returning units from Starcraft. Could make some cool air battle maps to see which unit is the supreme air unit. (Obviously, units that have no defense against air would be left out, as they would just be annihilated.)

[ijffdrie]

the first thing im gonna do is create a sc1 mod for sc2, so terrangod won't complain anymore

[Major Willy]

Blizzard has confirmed that scrapped Starcraft units will be in the SC2's Map Editor.

[asdfasdf9876]

i hope they make another ship that can shoot air ground and can cloak. the one thing i loved about the wraith is that it can cloak and **** with both ground and air targets. the banshee is cool but there is no cloakable ship to use agains a bunch of air units coming at ur base.

[coreyb]

That sound's like a very powerful ship!!!

[BirdofPrey]

Yeah I liked the wraith but the laser sucked so bad. We need something that drops bombs. No ***** ass laser, no missile swarms, just a good large AOE damage at once bomb bomb.

[SOGEKING]

I disliked the wraith. Too expensive, too many time to build it, too long to wait for the load of energy to cloak it, and too fragile against any enemy. Good bye wraith !

[TerranGod]

predators better be good...they do only 4 damage from what ive seen (maybe higher? i dunno)

but wraith does 20 damage ea which kills air units faster...

i like the wraith but it should come back in sc2 as only A-A fighter

[BirdofPrey]

How quickly does the Pred fire because damage is only part of the equation

[Broodling]

Predators fire 4 shots at normal speed for a total of 16 damage altogether.

[BirdofPrey]

The Wrath's attack was 20 wasn't it

[Remy]

Yes, but the wraith's air attack is replaced by the viking air form. The two have the same role, as far as AA goes.

[Major Willy]

I thought the Predator and Banshee replaced the Wraith while the Viking replaced Valkyrie.

And I still think the Wraith gone is fine. The AA has been replaced, the Cloaked ground harassment has been handed to the Banshee.

Although I do miss the design of the Wraith...

[Inpox]

yes its design was cool, but now we got a cheaper unit with slightly better AA attack, a very better Air to ground unit and its engines was placed on reapers lol

[burkid]

I thought the Predator and Banshee replaced the Wraith while the Viking replaced Valkyrie.

no, viking and banshee replaced wraith as the wraiths attack was effective vs heavy air and the viking gets a bonus for damage vs heavy air.
predator (im assuming) will be effective vs light air, therefore replacing the valkyrie.

[Hadean]

Yeah the pred fits an almost "corsair" sort of role from what I've seen where their strength lies in their abilities not in their stats.

[Remy]

So basically, the wraith is no longer needed. That's the conclusion I came to.

Hadean, who is that girl in your avatar that keeps giving me the "I want you look?" My wife won't be happy if she finds out.

[Major Willy]

Epic Remy. Just epic.

Yeah Wraith will be missed for a little bit until we get into the Starcraft 2 Terran groove with our Vikings and Banshees. Death from above has never been so menacing.

[Associate]

don't you people think that building separate squadrons of Vikings and Banshes for ground and air attack will cost the terrans more resources and supplies than building a cloakable all-purpose ground and air attack unit like the wraith?

[Remy]

No, because the viking is all-around more useful than the wraith, and you can have more around for general purposes without them quickly becoming a liability. Of course, the viking does not have cloak, which is only logical considering balance. The cloaking aspect is picked up by the banshee, which absolutely rocks the pants off the wraith in terms of assaulting ground.

The wraith was all-purpose yes, but it wasn't equally effective in all aspects, its anti-ground pew-pew was hugely lacking. The main reason that limited the wraith from having a better ground attack is that very all-purpose nature, not only did it have a good air attack, it had the superior mobility of an air unit, and on top of that had cloak. So for balance purposes, they had to chop one of its balls off.

It's better to have two separate units that are extremely useful and effective in what you get them for, than to have a single unit that is often ineffective and not useful. That's what Terran does with everything else already anyway. There is no all-purpose Terran unit that is just generally useful and effective on its own. Anything that gives you a better ground attack, is something that you should consider to be a good thing until proven otherwise.

Anti-ground is much more important than anti-air, AA can be taken care of one way or another, it isn't something that you really need to worry about IMO. But the AG aspect is hugely significant because it applies to every thing in every game. Combat units on at least the entire first half of the tech tree(which would in turn be more prevalent, because they are available earlier and you spend longer time at producing them), workers, buildings, static defense(towers), are all things effected by AG, but AA is merely situational. You don't always deal with air, and you can expect that every race will be given multiple tools of dealing with it when you do anyway.

Lichking, you are evil. * frantically logs into wife's e-mail *

[Hadean]

Remy, her name shall remain undisclosed because that is my future wife and I will allow no meddling.

All jokes aside, her real name = unknown, her stage name is Silky Juno.

[TerranGod]

so viking does the same damage as wraith now?

in my opinion ppl will use viking for A-A more than ground harrass
from what ive seen, viking sucks at ground attacks

[Remy]

You can get them for either but use them for both. Just switch over to whichever mode the situation requires, I think that's why the viking is so sweet. It's ground form can't possibly suck more than wraith's pew-pew, so it's all good.

[BirdofPrey]

Yes Viking > wraith due to good ground attack

[Hadean]

TG, did the goliath suck at killing ground? No. therefore, will the viking suck at killing ground? No.

[Major Willy]

Goliaths are sexy M&M support.

[Vindicatormsc]

i think they should add a new unit to actually take on wrath's role.as of now,we have a good air ATG unit,and a good air ATA unit,but not an air unit that can attack both air and ground.yes,Viking can hit both air and ground by switching modes,but that's more like a lazy solution to me,even though i like the viking quite a lot(correct me if i am wrong,and the viking's air mode DOES hit ground units,thou).what they should do is simply upgrade the Wrath,with some ATG missiles or some new ability,perhaps.that's what they did with the Zealot(new ability),and i really wonder why can't they just make the Wrath an upgrade,instead of completely replacing it with TWO units,because that way,you'd need to spend much more with air units:you can't build just,say,Banshees and BCs to make your air fleet,because you will be more vulnerable to ATA attacks.same thing with vikings

the Terran lack an all-around air unit,and the Wrath was that unit...

[Associate]

blizzard claimed that the viking was an advanced replacement for the goliath, if so, then don't they think its reasonable to enable it to fire against air targets while in mech mode without switching to fighter mode?

[Major Willy]

Maybe they could get their ATA missiles in ground form and do something else in Air mode.

[Vindicatormsc]

if they really are an advanced relacement for the Goliath,they should be able to hit both air and ground targets while on the ground.

[BnechbReaker]

although it "should" it's not good in terms of game play mechanic, having the ground form shoot air will reduce the role of the air form and eliminate the viking's weakness

[ijffdrie]

so what if the viking requires more micro than the wraith, id you want a wraith play sc1, dont complain about sc2 not being exactly the same as sc1

[Vindicatormsc]

okay now...calm down will ya ?? no one is yelling on caps "OMG TEH VKING IZ TAH SH1T!!BRING TAH WRAITH BACKZ!!!111!!!!!11111",so no need to do so.

@BnechbReaker:actually no,because,from the videos i saw,the Viking seens to be very fragile.they are not hit-absorvers,capable of taking hits from lots and lots of units.wether they had air attack in ground form,that wouldn't change the fact that they are still fragile.the Goliaths weren't uber because of being able to hit ground and air,for they weren't very resistant(125 hp,if i am not mistaken).yes,Vikings can transform,but during the transformation time they are completely defenseless to attacks,so this would negate a possible scape attempt.

[BnechbReaker]

my point is giving goliath a "free" air form would make it too good, so something had to be taken away. the viking could still attack both ground and air, just that in each mode it has a specific weakness, but transforming enable it to "swap" its weakness to suit the current needs, which is a fair mechanic

[Vindicatormsc]

hum...i see your point,it's true that the at it's core,the Viking IS capable of hitting ground and air,only that it needs to transform in order to do so.my main concern about is that the transforming time may turn out to be too long,thus making the fragile Viking more vulnerable to enemy attacks than it should be.due to this,i thought about it being able to hit air and ground in one form.

but it's likely blizz will adress this before launching the game.we are still in alpha anyway...

[ijffdrie]

it takes approximately 2 seconds to transform

[Major Willy]

I caught that the millisecond the Vikings went from Ground to Air in the Terran Video, the Siege Tanks couldn't hit them.

[Vindicatormsc]

yes,because they start to hover right away,but they can only do anything else when the transformation is complete

[BnechbReaker]

still one of the major weakness of the goliath in sc1 is it's clumsiness and it's lack of mobility, since as a ground based anti-air unit, it's mostly used to counter air, but the fact it's fighting air on the ground made it quite ineffective, especially against muta.

statistically, goliath is cheaper and stronger than muta, but in practice a zerg player massing muta totally owns a terran player massing goliath, the flyers are able to use hit and run tatics while the goliaths gets trapped between ramps and narrow paths. even boxer at his height couldn't win using goliath against muta.

mobility is a huge advantage, it's true that the few seconds of delay during transform in order to hit air is a weakness compared to the original goliath, but the ability to fly more than makes up for it.

[Remy]

Viking is fine as is. People need to abandon idea of all-around units and stop chasing that elusive dream. Even SC1 units all have had built-in weaknesses for the most part. They're stressing balanced unit mix even more in SC2, what makes anyone think it would be any less important for units to have obvious weaknesses this time around?

Really, the wraith is not needed. Not only will it be redundant, it will actually be worse than what Terran has now.

[BirdofPrey]

I was always annoyed with the fact that a marine is more dangerous to ground units than a Wraith despite costing less anyway. Always wished to have a bomber. The Banshee (an attach helicopter) is good enough though

[BnechbReaker]

banshee will totally own at mid game harassment, it is just perfectly built for it. good aoe damage, flying and cloaking. what more could you ask for

[BirdofPrey]

Air to air missiles

[Remy]

Hope you're joking.

[BnechbReaker]

you wouldn't need air to air missiles if you only want to harass, unless you want to kill overlords but by the time you get banshees, zerg will already have many overlords and killing one or two wouldn't make much difference

[BirdofPrey]

Hope you're joking.
Yes I am

[Inpox]

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/trashcat_410.jpg

[-LT-]

Why do you post cat pictures everywhere?

[Inpox]

well its only in the spamm threads but i just couldn't resist here, it matched so perfectly :P


but ok i will stop

[-LT-]

You like cats don't you?

[Inpox]

yup yup. got 3 myself :)

[-LT-]

That's great. I love cats. I had one once. Awww They're so cute.

[Inpox]

yup yup. anyways back on topic

Banshee is gonna pwn for harassment, a stealthed group of may by 5-7 can wipe all workers from an expansion or base in a matter of seconds, its a worthy progressor

the viking is going to be a good air to air unit because it got good damage and is cheap, and good for base raiding in early game

[BnechbReaker]

your guys are turning a wraith thread into a cat thread...

[Inpox]

there is a cat thread now :P

[Remy]

Might as well, there is really nothing else to say about it. The answer is a resounding no. Case closed.

[Inpox]

yeah, lets lock up this thread now

(or let it die)

[Remy]

Inpox, you need to tone down your cat images outside of space junk. Promise?

[Hadean]

Muhahaha I've cheated into making the majority believe they WANT the wraith! Godbless editting your own polls.

[ijffdrie]

redo it hadean


NOW!

[BnechbReaker]

i just want to say the the original wraith was an awesome design, one of the best in the history of rts. the viking looks crap in comparison. it's too fat.

[Recon]

the wraiths design looked cool but they were useless compared to the viking. i dont think the wraith should come back but the viking should get a new look.

[DontHate]

yea, the i agree with recon. Maybe the viking air fighter could look more like the wraith. Also is it just me or does anyone else hate the way the viking looks in ground mode? looks like a chubby crusader knight.

[BnechbReaker]

the concept was pretty good but the 3d rendering made them fat!! the wraith still looks better though

http://www.starcraft2.com/features/terran/images/viking-thumb3.jpg

[Remy]

Don't you guys think everything looks fat in SC2? I don't mean literally everything, but quite a few unit models give off that fatass vibe.

[BirdofPrey]

Not really. To me it all screams utility vehicle converted for military use