Banshee

[TidalSpiral]

This is my favorite new Terran unit by far. It made me recall the days of playing Nuclear Strike or similar helicopter games, not because they worked so well but because attack choppers are neat. Granted it's not exactly a chopper but the propeller things are enough. I hope they do strafing runs, would be neat to see them sweeping over head while marines clear a valley of zerglings. Plus apparently they can cloak, making for sneak bombings.

Anybody else loving this one?

[Griffith]

Yeah I like it too, will be a good unit for killing miners swiftly.

[Itsmyship]

This unit has a particular significance for me because this along with the Viking were two units that I imagined...almost exactly as a matter of fact :P

Can't wait to use Banshee!! It'll make me feel like I'm using a B2 Spirit ;D

[TerranGod]

who doesnt like banshee? it would be so fun to use banshees :)
get like...5 of them and go to your opponents base every 2 minutes and kill their nexus/command center/hactery and run away come back and repeat

sounds stupid but its amusing to watch your friends squirm shouting WTF@!@ STOP

[Wlck742]

Haha, yeah, I could see some great strat with this. Anyways, this is a bomber, right? Cuz if all it had was a machine gun or lasers, that wouldn't be so cruel as a cloaked bomber.

[SirBaron]

I am so not looking forward having my Drones raped by these babies. Cloaked Bombers = omgwtfhawtkkmgawd.

[DKutrovsky]

Heh that would be funny if vikings are like vaklyries.

Vikings + Banshees come, kill all the overlords and the resource hatcheries and than go back. good times...

[SirBaron]

I'm scared enough already, don't make it worse!

:P

[zeratul11]

right now banshee is my second fave terran unit. i don't think there is anything that can overcome my favorite thor.

[SirBaron]

I agree, Thor is looking really shining at the moment (the fact that SCV's builds it is pretty awesome :) )

Just have to wait seeing it in action.

[DontHate]

The bansee looks alright. i think it's the terrans making up for bad Air to ground.

[leemen]

Banshee lack of air attack, which makes they must co-work with others. Viking is good for annoy. Have you see one of screens from swidish scan? Blizzard already used Viking in slaughtering Protoss's probes.

[Hadean]

It looks far too much like the Orca Fighter / Orca Bomber from C&C but the Orca series was cool, and this is too. I expect i'll enjoy the **** out of this Banshee. But I still miss my wraith :upset:

[PowerkickasS]

ahhh banshee - halo z0mgers :P

looks like byebye muta control. helloooo terran

[FlyingTiger]

lol oooooooo we don't know nothing about what the zerg can do! there is something prolly more insane than the banshee muahaha

[KaZoN]

Man, I'm drooling in anticipation of the bansee. Looks way better the wraith.

[Exvasion]

So I was thinking wouldn't a cool idea for an ability for the Banshee be a Cluster bomb attack? You know, like an anti-infantry or anti-weak armored units attack that is spread over a wide area. Then I thought, well, that would probably be overpowered, I mean, you could take a fleet of cloaked banshees and obliterate your enemy's entire army in one massive attack he didn't even see coming. But I mean, the idea still seems cool. Is there a way they could maybe balance an ability like this? Maybe they could make it take several seconds to hit the ground after its dropped, so they would have time to move their units. Any thoughts? What do you guys think of this idea?

[burkid]

the banshees already are bombers, and they already have an aoe, its on their normal attack.
edit: they can cloak too. forgot to mention that.

[DKutrovsky]

Yeah, thats like saying, you know what would be cool, if we make the siege tank into an artilery type of a unit, that can shoot very far for a lot of damage...But that means if you make like 20+ tanks nothing can reach them on ground within shooting range....

Sorry if its mean, but yeah, the Banshee already does that, AoE normal attacks.

[surr]

well banshee is the terran way of reavers?? air not ground

[burkid]

...what? im sorry, i just didnt understand your post.

[surr]

reaver aoe ground attack
banshee aoe ground attack

[TidalSpiral]

I think he's trying to say that the Banshee is like the Terran equivalent to the Reaver, except it flies instead.

[Exvasion]

An ability should complement and be characteristic of the type of unit that uses it, you wouldn't give a medic yamato cannon would you? I guess I can see your point, it may be a little redundant, and since they get a cloaking ability they probably won't get a second ability unless Blizzard decides to not give banshee's the ability to cloak. Also, since the Battlecruisers are getting that yamato torpedo attack there is already an attack for large air-to-ground damage. Yet again, if they get rid of that idea, a cluster bomb attack might be a nice addition.

Furthermore, how much of an area is the aoe of a normal attack going to be? Not that much probably, a cluster bomb attack that spreads a wide area with moderate damage would be a good supplement to the banshee. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and I still kind of like it, but whatever, doesn't seem like anyone else does.

[TidalSpiral]

I got the feeling the Banshee drops multiples of small bombs, not just one blast at a time which would kind of be like cluster bombs. Who knows till we see it firing clearly.

[burkid]

^i have a feeling its gonna have valkyrie-like attack that hits ground. or, a bunch of small bombs lol.

[Exvasion]

I'm pretty sure it shoots missiles, so it's not really a "bomber". If it in fact does drop bombs as its normal attack I am wrong and I would retract my idea.

[burkid]

ah. thanks for the translation.

[burkid]

missiles are sometimes called bombs. (watch the movie stealth). and i said valk-like attack. valks shoot missiles, but i put that thing on the end because it might just drop bombs.

[Exvasion]

Well just to clarify by missiles I mean a projectile that flies into its target through use of its own propulsion, bombs being just free falling munitions(guided or not). I think it will fire single missiles for its attack, more like an attack helicopter than a bomber. And I don't think it's going to shoot a rocket barrage like the valkyries, but who knows I guess.

[Joneagle_X]

Actually the Valkyrie fires concussion missiles which are supposed to "explode" before they reach the target and cause damage over a larger area. That's why you see the ripples in SC1. I would assume that the AOE attack for the Banshee will be something like if someone were to throw marbles at you... It has a kind of lazy effect where the balls fall using just gravity. So the faster the unit is moving the faster the "missile" fires.

[burkid]

i said valk-like attack. not a valk attack. i meant that as a volley of missiles, not necesserily what the valks do.

[Remy]

If I'm not mistaken, I think that's how it was described in the source article(s). That the banshee ground attack is like the valkyrie's attack in that it is a volley of many rounds of shots.

[kehmdaddy]

I hope that that's true, because that sounds like the ultimate economy abuser. Just cloak 2 or 3, fly in from behind, run rounna back, and then all the unsuspecting drones, probes or SCVs just get blown to smithereens. That'd be very satisfying to do to someone.

[Remy]

I don't think the banshee would really be comparable to the reaver.  Just like corsair and reaver both had splash damage, but it's not really the same thing.  You couldn't really say corsair was the flying reaver or the that the reaver was corsair on the ground.

Anyway, banshee is a wonderful upgrade from the wraith.  Lovely.  It was about time that Terran air was a little threathening to Zerg, bring it on. :P

[Wlck742]

Valks were actually pretty good against Z, except everyone forgot about it. Shame...

[TheFearless]

at least the weak wraith has been removed

[AdmiralAckbar]

I like that they finally have a small massable ship that is good versus ground (aside from the gaurdian).

[Major Willy]

Banshees look like sexy beasts.

And cloaked good VS ground units with an anti ground bomb?
I'm going to have worker killing sprees.

[DontHate]

ah damnit. Do banshees cloak at least?

I like the idea of it except it looks so hideiously ugly.

[Major Willy]

It's a choppa.
Quick, get to the choppa... er, I mean Banshee.

[Star-Crap]

the banshee was made because the terren had no air to ground devastating attack unit. sure they had the battlecruser but the $$ was too much and hydras can pwn it.

[Major Willy]

Yeah it's kind of sad how easy Hydralisks can overwhelm it. That's got to be the reason why the BCs get the new Air to Ground ability.

Anyways I like the Banshee's look, even if it's not as sharp as the Wraith.

[capthavic]

I didn't really like the design for the wraith so I'm not missing it. I think the banshee looks awesome and gives terrans a low cost air to ground force.

[Shadowdragon]

First, I want you all to look at this,
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/divinebaboon/Reaperminebig.jpg

Now, you all see the probes, right? What about the circular thingy with the light bars around it? Notice how its right under the Banshee? So, I was thinking, maybe the Banshee can drop mines. That would be pretty cool, and a player could do alot of damage with a drive-by mine drop.

[Remy]

Reaperminebig.jpg...........

So far the unit that we know that can lay mines is the reaper, I'm assuming that's what it is.

[Shadowdragon]

I thought they had to put mines on the buildings. Did that change?

[Remy]

I don't think it was only on buildings, but I'm not sure as the details we have so far about the mines seem vague. But nontheless, the notion of air dropping mines seems a little unlikely.

[burkid]

maybe a reaper ran in, dropped a bomb, then went back to formation. or died.

[Itsmyship]

Or maybe he decided to go Kamikaze for the will of Terran God?

[Joneagle_X]

Sounds like a wraith ;) but minus the crappy ground attack ;)

Now the "wraith" unit for terran will actually be a decent raider even without cloak.

[CapMan]

cluster bombs would be pretty tight, but then as you said you could just cloak tons of them then sneek them in to destroy everything

[Indigent]

I think it would be nice if they had a second skill like dropping paratroopers that float down and shoot from the sky. Then they could attack zerglings before getting attacked, but then scourges would be able to smash into your marines. :o That way it would ballance out the whole phase prism zealots being digitizing into your base. (Kind of)
http://www.gamemeca.com/game_data/preview/2050/teran-3.jpg
Oh yeah and the banshees shoot missles (As in the self propelled ones) not bombs.

[spark32]

I don't have a problem with it, but I was just wondering how Banshees are supposed to fly around in a vacuum environment when their method of propulsion seems to be the same as many of today's helicopters and other rotor powered aircraft. What do you think will be Blizzard's explanation for this? Super gravity repelling rotor blades? ;D

[Eye_Carumba]

It's not the ship that repels the blades that repel the ship, it's the ship that repels the blades, and the blades repel the universe! O_O (lol)

[Ghost]

It probably has an alternate method like hover pads around the rims of the blades, blades are probably only for planets with an atmosphere.

[DKutrovsky]

Well put ghost, but im sure there is "interstellar" propulsion systems for all aircraft. You really need efficiency in space, its quite big

[burkid]

they fly around in space the same way mutalisks fly in space. and guardians fly... in general.

[spark32]

I lost my Starcraft manual years ago, but I think it had an explanation of how Mutalisks and Guardians are able to fly through space. Can somebody please confirm this? All I remember from it is that the Overmind was able to absorb a species of alien that was able to fly through vacuum naturally. Maybe they mixed and matched the DNA of several species to get the Mutalisk.

[Indigent]

First off, welcome to the forum spark. And I would like to know how banshees fly in space too. Maybe they have to be in the dock of giant Drop Ship or something. It makes more sense that banshees can hover. Wraiths just used to stay in one spot if you didn't tell them to do anything. How can they stay up without moving? No thrusters below them or anything.

[spark32]

Haha, I used to wonder about the Wraith hovering too. I also wondered how they land. That third wing jutting from the bottom makes using conventional landing gear a bit hard.

Blizzard should write a fat encyclopedia about Starcraft lore, explaining all of the things that Blizzard never really goes in-depth with and has the fans speculate on. I don't know about the rest of you, but that encyclopedia would be to me what Bibles are to Christians. Haha.

[burkid]

it doesnt say how they move in space in the manual (mutas and guardians), just that they do.

[LordKerwyn]

My guess would be Banshee are probally normally attached to a battlecrusier while flying through space but they porbally have a number of secondary engines for manuevering in a vacum

[burkid]

welcome to the forums :)

[ShdwyTemplar]

The Zerg Travel through Space with the DNA of a Behemoth. A monstrous creature the Overmind absorbed into the Swarm when he was on Zerus the Zerg Planet of Origin. The Behemoth is a creature capable of space travel.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth

Back on point. The Banshee Propulsion most likely doesn't travel in space, but, the Banshee most likely remains in the docking bay of a Battlecruiser when in space. Simple explanation. Besides whats the point of a Bomber in space... Not like they gonna perform a bombing run....

[burkid]

that doesnt say how individual units move in space, like mutalisks, which flap their wings.

[Ghost]

Well, now that terrans have a starport that flies, I would not find it unsusualy for all small aircraft to take garrison inside it.

[spark32]

Many thanks for the welcomes. The atmosphere in these forums is a lot more friendly than those on battle.net. One page without someone calling another person a dumbass or a noob? Impossible on battle.net forums.

Shdwy Templar: In several screenshots, the Banshee is seen on space platforms, flying around on its own.

As for how the Banshee flies in space, I'm starting to think that LordKerwyn's explanation is the most practical. In the announcement trailer, the Banshee (or something that looks remarkably similar to the Banshee) is seen flying between two buildings in a way that would seem impossible for normal rotor powered aircraft. I think it flies in a manner similar to today's F-35 Lightning II, in that it has a lift fan (fans, in the Banshee's case) for vertical take off and hovering and regular jet engines for all other purposes of movement.

As for Mutalisks... They defy physics? Nobody knows. :)

The concept for the Starbase is absolutely amazing. It's essentially a flying factory/aircraft carrier, which is perfectly fine in my book. Can't wait to try it out once the game is released.

EDIT: I forgot that the Apache and some other helicopters could possibly pull off maneuvers similar to the Banshee's in the announcement trailer, so let's just say that it would be really hard for a purely rotor powered aircraft to pull that stuff off. My mistake. ;D

[ShdwyTemplar]

Those platforms are not in space but an artificial atmosphere created on the platform. As the platforms are created by Terran for further expansion it also contained Electricity and Artificial Gravity so normal aerial fighters and transport would still work.

The Behemoth DNA strain has been spliced into all Zerg Air Flyers allowing them to travel in space. As the Zerg Flyers have the means to as in Wings and such. You wouldn't see flying Hydralisk.... Blizzard never explained it in full, but, that seems the most logical idea for it. I know nothing, I only speculate.

Also Welcome to the Forums Enjoy your stay. ;D

[capthavic]

1) Artificial gravity

2) It's just a game.

[spark32]

I'm well aware that it is just a game, but last time I checked, it is perfectly acceptable to speculate.

[BoydofZINJ]

None of the original Starcraft maps are pure space missions. While some are in outspace they were not deep space missions. Planetoids that do not spport life still have trace elements and particles held near the planetoid because of gravity. However, these elements would be so few that it would never, realistically, hold a light weight vehicle using blade proposion.

This is a game, first and foremost. This is also in the future and has fantasy elements. Let us applysome quasi logic physics to make this work. In both standard atmosphere and outer space missions these vessels use an injector unit that uses heated plasma andvents it like a rocket ship. The blades help control and regulate this plasma reaction which also causes life in both vacumn and atmospheric drives.

This vented plasma is a direct result of super charged particples being collected with a scoop device from the fusion device. This fusion device gives the ship great power for the electronics but has a side effect of heat. Nuclear reaction causes toxic waste - this type of fusion produce waste heat (plasma energy) which is the fuel for flight in my quasi logic situation.

[paragon]

Some banshees flying through the mountains.

[Chris Benoit]

Oh, those graphics look terrible! Blizzard needs to redesign them, add some detail.

[ArchLimit]

That doesn't look like a standard quality Blizzard cinematic. Where's it from?

[BnechbReaker]

hehe, is it another one of your "x unit is a rip off of x" post paragon?

[capthavic]

yeah where did you get this. It cetainly doesn't look like Blizzard made it.

[-LT-]

It doesn't look so good.

[burkid]

i think paragon made this one.

[capthavic]

heh then he shouldn't quit his day job ;D

[paragon]

i think paragon made this one.

correct.

heh then he shouldn't quit his day job ;D

you do better ***hat. I know I can do better. I bet you can't even do as good.


The quality is not "blizzard standard" for two reasons.
1) I didn't want the render time to be forever so I didn't do any of the fancy ****. A good one will take hours, this took 15 minutes.
2) It's a f**king teaser

Anyways, it does look better than the original starcraft's horrible horrible cinematics.

[burkid]

yeah it does.
is landscape real or did you make that too?

[paragon]

the landscape is just a photo

[FlyingTiger]

man paragon it'll be nice if you chill out a bit lol

[paragon]

big un
click it to make it bigger

[zeratul11]

its your sig.

dont worry its nice and you should be proud of it. i wish i could make something like this. =\

nice 3d model of the banshee too. paint it.

[capthavic]

heh then he shouldn't quit his day job ;D

you do better ***hat. I know I can do better. I bet you can't even do as good.
[/quote]

ROFLOL ah the classic comeback. So then only people who make videogames can review games?

Seriously, chill dude ^_^

[ArchLimit]

Nice looking model. Were you trying to go for low poly at all? It's hard to tell, which is a good sign if you were trying to go for low poly.

[paragon]

Yes, i was going for low poly. I don't really need or want a high poly model for what I'm going to do with it. That would make rendering times far more ridiculously long then they need to be.


So then only people who make videogames can review games?

Someone who makes video games will have far more insight into video games and could therefore review other games that they are not part of (due to natural biases) far better than anyone not in the video game industry.
Thats why a common marketing slogan is "Created by X for X" like "Created by gamers for gamers" not "Created by some random f**k who thought he knew what you wanted but really didn't for gamers." Some random person who does not play video games could think they know exactly what someone who plays video games would want in something but they really don't.

It's like all those dumb**** journalists who think they know about the CIA and have the "inside scoop" but really they don't know **** because they are not on the inside and have never seen the inside.

[capthavic]

Perhaps but that doesn't mean that they are the only ones who can give quality evaluations. Just because a person has never made something doesn't mean that they can't tell quality from crap. For example if you were to look at a beautiful hand made canoe, you would still compliment the craftsmanship even if you never made one yourself. And likewise if you were to see one that was warped and ill made you could still tell.

Similarly most, if not all, of the reviewers for the various well known game review mags and websites have had enough experience and knowledge of the process to make informed opinions. You may disagree with it but thats all any review is, an opinion.

I have seen countless flash, CGI, etc. of various quality and even dabbled in animation myself. And imo it wasn't that good, but that's just me. I would have liked it much better if you had made them stand out more and got a better look at them.

Sorry that you took it so personally but really you do need to lighten up.

[ArchLimit]

Well, not to toss myself into an argument, but the only thing I really have to offer to Paragon is that it's normal to have difficulty taking criticism. I, myself, often times get defensive when a critique comes from a seemingly low-credible source.

However, personally, I think anybody in this forum should be considered to have very valid opinions, including Capthavic. We are all very devoted to the outcome of this game, and one of many aspects of the game is art, and video game art in general. We are the fan base, so it would be silly IMO to think that our opinions don't matter for whatever reason.

But the most important advice, should you decide to take it, Paragon, is that in retrospect I think some of my best improvements were made as the result of a criticism. They are helpful and they are your friends. I think you will learn a lot from what ppl have to say about your work, whether it's good or bad.

[paragon]

It goes from Wraith (An apparition of a living person that appears as a portent just before that person's death) to the Banshee (a female wraith). We should get rid of the wraith aspect when we're coming up with names for this unit.
Right now I like Terran Raptor because you can say it fast enough to sound like... actually nothing cool. But if you guys have any ideas feel free to post them.

And Blizzard better keep the lasers...

[burkid]

do you mean just the name, or the whole unit?

i like how the unit is right now.

i think that the whole 'wraith aspect' is because of cloak. but beside that, im fine with raptor.

[Itsmyship]

I like Raptor. I also like Crusader and for some reason...Mustang and Stallion appeal to me for it.

[burkid]

what about your precious Praetorian? i really like that name too, but i believe i spelled it wrong.

[Itsmyship]

Nah, its spelt right, firefox has spell check :P

That too! Sorry...I'm not in too much of a thinking mood which also includes remembering stuff

[burkid]

ok, i couldnt remember if it was -ean or -ian at the end.

Praetorian or Raptor... ooh... both are good... i cant pick.

[zeratul11]

lasers for banshee? they need those missile for massive AOE damage on ground.

banshee looks nice. but needs more explosion effects on the ground and this goes out for all terran siege units too.

anyway im glad predator have lasers or it would suck. im not sure tho. terrans needs more lasers from units aside from the battlecruisers.

any idea what the cobra weapon is? gause gun? correct? so is it laser?

[shadow]

c,mon paragon, gimme a break blizzard knows what they are doing (no offens).
i dont think the terrans need more lasers, protoss got enought of em.

the name could be interesting to change.
the pilots are females, so banshee could be good.
also lots of the other names are good. mabye draggonfly could be a good name, thinking of now they move. :)

the cobra mounts twin railguns just to answer your question

[zeratul11]

so what are rail guns? what comes out of it? lasers? sorry.

[Indigent]

It's a rail gun. Zerglings will line up for your cobra to shoot straight through them with a laaazzz-zzerrrrr.
I think the cobra should be renamed though.

[Chris Benoit]

I think it should be called something cool... like... Banshee.

[Itsmyship]

Cobra = Sparrow
Banshee = Raptor, Praetorian, Mustang

all imho

[ArchLimit]

Anybody like the name Raven? It's kinda used quite a bit but I've always liked the sound of it...

[nortonanti]

I like the name raptor

[paragon]

oh jesus christ i was mocking the cobra thread. the first post is almost exactly the same in both threads. The banshee is fine just the way it is. i like the name and everything else.

[Indigent]

Raven sounds a little emo.. I love it.

[MarineCorp]

Um... Banshee should be renamed into something that is similar to banshee, ghost, wraith anything that is ghostly kind of name plus Raptor sounds cool but any similarities??? we were all complaining about the names that are not reasonable but i am trying to think of a word to rename the banshee...um...

[Indigent]

I don't know.. I just got a funny name. How about the wraith? Just kidding I don't know. Is there anything else ghostly that you can think of beside ghost, wraith, and banshee?

[american_rdm]

Now this is getting stupid... The Banshee is fine please stop with these threads. The Nomad on the other hand is not fine.

[paragon]

The banshee is perfect everyone. Okay?

[Indigent]

You were the one who started this thread, though.

[Quanta]

I'm glad this is a snark. I found that Cobra needs a change thread rather annoying. Why on Earth complain about the units name. It really doesn't matter what they call it. It is going to end up being abrieviated anyway.

[paragon]

You were the one who started this thread, though.

It was a response to how ridiculous the "cobra needs a change" thread is

[slugonice]

mice model. you should sell it on BIDSHOT

[paragon]

you see the banshee in the cine trailer for less than a second and you see next to no detail on it. :O

fast ships move fast and create motion blur.

[ninerman13]

Anyone else notice? The Terran Banshee has been added on the Starcraft 2 website!

[ArchLimit]

Ah, thanks! They look great! Haha, Paragon's gonna cream when he sees it :D

[joshin]

So the banshee just went up on the starcraft2 site and I think it looks awesome....
well anyways,
do you guys think that the AoE will hurt allies like the tank's splash?
or
will it be like the lurker's AoE that doesn't affect allies?


(i usually write this, but sry mods if there's already a thread like this up)

[shadow]

most likely it would damage alies, check this out

banshee has gained a nasty reputation as a Dominion terror weapon because it has been used more and more often in urban conflicts, where its indiscriminate attacks have killed countless non-combatants.

then its almighty attack gets a limitation. :)

[-LT-]

It's great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[brc9210]

Lurkers attack did hurt allies it just didnt hurt your units, tanks splash actually does hurt your own units.

[hillzagold]

i thought that tank splash only hurt your own buildings

[BirdofPrey]

It has counterrotating rotors yet they still felt the need to put a tail roter on it. What the crap is that

[Unentschieden]

All Terran Splash will hurt "themselves" that is the actuall benefit of Melee for the Aliens. In the best case scenario it doesn´t matter as every Terran combat unit is ranged and every enemy dies before he comes close enough to attack (as I said BEST case scenario).

[pro]

whats a banshee lol

[pro]

some crazy flying machine

[pro]

is that the new wraith?

[pro]

why are they renaming terran units

[Mokkat]

So far I've found most Starcraft 2 units original and cool. Starcraft 1 re-used units and most new ones. The ones I can tolerate are the cobra and the colossus, one a bit too c&c'ish and the other copied from War of the worlds, they're still cool SC units though :P.

But

The Banshee, I don't like it, not one bit. Where the cobra is somewhat c&c'ish, the Banshee is way over the top :(

Soo, heres a Banshee and an Orca
http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/thumb/6/6e/Banchee.jpg/200px-Banchee.jpg http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetcnc.gamespy.com/images/oldsite/clusterimages/orca1141706617.jpg


Not only does the Banshee resemble the classic orca in appearance, it also has a similar fast rate of fire missile weapon system.
Even the banshee -name was taken from a Nod bomber in C&C Tiberian Sun.
The only thing that sort of makes this unit a Starcrafter is its cloaking ability, since the wraith had it.
- But if im not mistaken, the first C&C in 95 invented RTS stealth units with its "Ezekiel's Wheel" tank. In the first SC the wraith was a unique RTS unit, and its cloaking abilities was perfect for its role as a fragile hit n run unit. But with the Banshee already having C&C written all over it, I just find it even more Nod'ish :bad:

So, all in all, Blizzard made a Nod Orca ???



Anyways, if we're going to keep this unit in the game, the graphic for its rotors should be better. There should be more blurring of the blades to make them seem like going too fast for the eye to percieve, like on a genuine helicopter. At the moment I'm surprised that those Banshees can stay airborne :S

[paragon]

Things use lots of things as reference. The Orca was probably copying off something else (actually I know it was but I don't want to go find the thing yet again). There are not very many completely new designs anymore. Marines look like Space Marines but most people don't complain about that anymore.
Besides, it looks like it fits in StarCraft 2. It's not like it was a direct copy.

Though I do agree about the propellers

[pro]

it looked just like a wraith to me

[hillzagold]

then you dont know what a wraith looked like

[somiao]

haha yeah paragon is gonna cream...

[Chris Benoit]

It looks like a ****ing helicopter with two enclosed rotors on the top to give it lift. Not a terribly unique concept that anyone or anything can claim to have thought of first. As for the name Banshee - a banshee is the name for a spirit in some old folklore, not invented by Tiberian Sun.

[BirdofPrey]

The only thing I find amiss is the fact that it has two counter rotating rotors yet thy felt the need to put a tail rotor in which is only needed on single rotor craft. That makes it looks stupid

[[LightMare]]

it also reminded me of the Manta or something in Unreal Tournament. i think they should move the rear rotor back a lot. the spinstas are too close together.

[capthavic]

All this topic does is show that people can (and will) **** about anything.

[evolved326]

The only thing I find amiss is the fact that it has two counter rotating rotors yet thy felt the need to put a tail rotor in which is only needed on single rotor craft. That makes it looks stupid



+1

Thats the first thing I thought too when I saw the tail rotor. And its not going to make sense when its flying about on the space playforms. I dont think rotors work in space the same way they work on a planet.

[Lunatik]

I agree, the first time I saw the banshee which was like 5minutes ago hehe i thought it looked pretty crappy :(

[Hunter]

I don't mind if units are something like in other games.. I know Blizzard will give much different abilities and role for them on the battlefield.

[BnechbReaker]

apparently the banshee is a planetary ship, meaning it can't fly in deep space, i wounder how is it going to work in space platform tiles.

[BnechbReaker]

it's been confirmed that bashees are planetary ships, meaning they can't achieve escape velocity to fly into outer space. i wonder how they are going to work in space platform tiles...

[AcE_01]

i bet ya in campaigne u cant use banshee in space. but since its to complicated for multiplayer...they will let player use every unit, whatever the terrain is

lol...

[ijffdrie]

i think the attack of the banshee is really awesome, the bansee itself sucks

[paragon]

There is probably a light atmosphere on space platforms.

[venado]

I like the design anyway...
But the rotor are useless in space, with no air... I'll change them for something more... "sofisticated"

[Smokiehunter]

even on the site it says that the banshee needs to be trasported to other planits and has no space ability. and I bet that a space platform has air and gravity and probably even atmospher, because every thing needs to breath and no other unit looks changed on it.

The only thing i have to complain about it is that they say they are making terran defencive but they're putting in all these base raiding units (Reapers, Banshee, viking) that make them the biggest haraser in the game so far with protos only haveing DT.

[-LT-]

It's a game. Who cares. I's cool.

[Sikhye23]

well i like the banshee because it can take a hit, they work great in numbers, and they have cloak. (finally a tough terran unit that doesn't look like its just asking for it [haven't you ever wanted to just rip apart all clunky terran units by putting your hands inside their doofy metallic crevices and tearing them asunder? {like the marine/tank/viking]) Anyways, i think the unit really works for the Terran.
But as much as i love the unit ... GYROCOPTER ... ahem.

[string_me_along]

They can fly into outerspace when powered by blizzard to do so.

[Drafter]

Russian what?Why is the back ground so erm...greenish,field?
First off,I liked the banshee's missile attack and whereas for the banshee itself I must say its C&C style...
And logically it can't fly without air,in space that is...but sc isn't based on real world or real weapon so I guess Blizzard can do pretty much what they want with it...

[Moogle]

some crazy flying machine


Only way that would happen if a goblin from warcraft 3 was flying it for a crash drive test.

Banshee most likely will be balanced out like every other unit near massive patches =/

[venado]

they fly around in space the same way mutalisks fly in space. and guardians fly... in general.

Yes, I think so... but how guardian fly?

Quoting myself:

But the rotor are useless in space, with no air... I'll change them for something more... "sofisticated"

There are people talking about this in that post too...

[Hunter]

Yeah I was thinking on this either.. And I figured out it makes no sense for me:D I like the banshees look

[Indigent]

That's because it has a good look.

[burkid]

they fly around in space the same way mutalisks fly in space. and guardians fly... in general.

Yes, I think so... but how guardian fly?

venado, i said that because i was getting a point across that blizzard doesnt necessarily follow the laws of physics with their units. in SC1, mutalisks flew in space by using wings, which makes no sense, and guardians were flying crabs with no visible means of propulsion or way of staying airborne. therefore, i dont care that they are making banshees have the ability to fly in space, as it is still an amazing unit, regardless.

[ijffdrie]

the banshee flies on the blood of zergling that he just shot to smithereens

[[LightMare]]

http://images.abovetopsecret.com/comanche.jpg
It was a failed attempt at the Boeing-Sikorsky Comanche RAH-66 Stealth Helicopter.
A Russian helicopter primarily used for recon or tactical missions.
the Blizzard design sucks. I prefer CRAZYyoda's one on starcraft.org.


drafter, please take your GEO lessons? Russia has a lot of green. and a lot of white. so what. it is a russian helicopter

[paragon]

Russian? The Comanche is an American helicopter and both Boeing and Sikorsky are American companies. I don't know where you got Russian from.
And it wasn't a failed attempt. It passed every test the only problem was that the Army decided to use the funding to renovate their existing helicopters and because UAVs can take on the role that the Comanche was going to have.

[SirBaron]

Someone mentioned that the Banshee's rotors won't work in space - well, being a Zerg player i can just relate to the Mutalisk... it shouldn't be able to flap it's wings in space (or rather, build a momentum by flapping it's wings in space), but as you all know it has no whatsoever problem conquering airless vaccum.

[Gah345]

what if they replaced the dual rotors with dual jets that swivel and angle when they move and turn?

would kinda remind me of those hover-jet-mech-flyers from Terminator 3

( yes jets work in space according to newton's 3rd and obviously the fact that we use them in space today :) )

[hillzagold]

the toss have the phase prism/warp gate combo, the stalkers, and colossus. and phase cannons aren't totally useless against the banshee. bring in a phase prism that wont get attacked, and you're set.

[Drafter]

]
drafter, please take your GEO lessons? Russia has a lot of green. and a lot of white. so what. it is a russian helicopter


Ok,I'm not really good at it but I'll try harder.......oh I forgot,they barely teach Russia geo in my school or is it that I don't pay attention(nah can't be)...anyway I'll keep in mind that Russia has a lot of white and green.

[Skylark]

Wow, dig the quadruple post, pro.

And yes, if memory serves, the Siege Tank's splash did, in fact, hurt friendlies as well. This is also true the Reaver, which damaged friendlies via splash-inducing Scarabs. Friggin things were useless defending an ally's base.

[Gah345]

I made a 3D rendering of a Banshee but i replaced the rotors with jets

you have to download it from savefile but its only 175 KB http://www.savefile.com/files/1005868

http://dl1u.savefile.com/thumbs/c3c90c4d2298bc02c9af60e6a7a14668/0.jpeg

[string_me_along]

Wow, dig the quadruple post, pro.

And yes, if memory serves, the Siege Tank's splash did, in fact, hurt friendlies as well. This is also true the Reaver, which damaged friendlies via splash-inducing Scarabs. Friggin things were useless defending an ally's base.


I believe the main difference here is that the siege tank hurt ones own units not just the allies. Whereas the reaver hurt allies, but not your own units.

And other than the "rotors in space" aspect of the banshee, I really like it. I just think it might be a little slower than the jets that the other races have. I don't know about mutalisks. They have wings, but there must be some other manner of propulsion for them in space.

[ijffdrie]

the mutalisk's don't fight much in space, they have a limited amount of gas for propulsion, but most of the time they travel trough rifts in the space time continuum or are bombarding a planet.
the gaurdian only has this amount of gas, but i guess he extracts more from the atmosphere to hover, maybe he is fille with helium
the devourer is very large and can contain much gas, so he is the main zerg space fighter

cant remember where i read this

war
:thumbup: :thumbup:

[BirdofPrey]

Dude Pro WTF use edit please.

I am going to bet the AoE is damage allies but not your own units. I think it should either hurt all units in an area or have no splash but that's just me.

[Hunter]

Lurkers attack did hurt allies it just didnt hurt your units, tanks splash actually does hurt your own units.

Yeah, and I think the same will be true for the banshee.. so we have to use it wisely.

[BirdofPrey]

Lurkers attack did hurt allies it just didnt hurt your units, tanks splash actually does hurt your own units.

Yeah, and I think the same will be true for the banshee.. so we have to use it wisely.
If they really want you to use it wisely they will make it hurt your units too. As much as you want to believe it isn't true most people don't give a damn about your units and wheather they get caught in your attack.

[StarcrafterKid]

How does it fly in space with propellors? There is no air in space?

[ArchLimit]

Hehe... welcome to the forum StarcrafterKid.

Marines shouldn't really be able to breathe now should they?

[cereal]

Marines shouldn't really be able to breathe now should they?


Why not?
From the official website's marine description:
"The heavy armor worn by marines is effective against small-arms fire and provides them with full life support and NBC (Nuclear/Biological/Chemical) shielding for operation in deep space and other hostile environments"

Oh btw, I <3 your avatar ;D

[Exterranminator]

Why does the banshee fly in space? CUZ MUTAS FLYES, THATS WHY! ;]
Anyway this flyer looks prety strong. Fast, cloacked and with fast firing missiles it coild be great hit and run unit for isle maps etc.

[manaplague]

It's not a starship, it's for planetary conflicts only,(it's consructed at the site or transported through other means) and before you get at me about to clip, it must have some kind of artificial air on it or some of the units would have a very hard time breathing.

[string_me_along]

It's not a starship, it's for planetary conflicts only,(it's consructed at the site or transported through other means) and before you get at me about to clip, it must have some kind of artificial air on it or some of the units would have a very hard time breathing.


I have a hard time believing that blizzard won't let you use them on space platform levels and the like, even though there should be no air to use for lift. They say it's a planetary vehicle but I'm sure it will be used in the space missions as well. Marines + medics have their suits. And we don't really know if the protoss or zerg need to breathe at all.

[Gasmaskguy]

Atleast not protoss. Zerg should need to breath, otherwise it wont feel right :P
wonder if all zerg buildings breath too...?

[ijffdrie]

space platform= is a platform with artificial air and gravity

:thumbup: war :thumbup:

[AdmiralAckbar]

Why was this thread even started? Nearly everything in Starcraft was influenced by somthing else, you might as well start a thread for every unit. You personally may not like the Banshee but its not Soulhunter gay, so theres no reason to get up-in-arms about it. Imagine if everyone on the forum started a topic everytime they didnt like somthing. You're making the forums too cluttered with nonsense topics, instead of having a streamlined site with information and serious discussion about Starcraft 2.

[ijffdrie]

i actually agree with you ackbar, btw, i removed 1 of your powerdowns, now you only have -10

[SOGEKING]

Anyway the Orca is a copy of an helicopter seen in "the Big O - act 8 - Missing cat". An anime from 1999.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WCFRRPoXEiM Just see the first five SECONDS to confirm what I said.

[AdmiralAckbar]

Too bad C&C came out way before 1999

[Gasmaskguy]

i personally love the banshee. not as much as i love the siege tank, but still. anyway, giving it jets would make it less unic. And who cares if it can or can not fly on space platforms? Why dont you wonder how much a Thor weights instead? Or how a guardian can float?

[Protosscommander]

Well i think its Triple of the Banshee, thats what i think ???

[Indigent]

I would like it if the wraiths had actually fought like seekers and go around flying and shooting up or down like banshees did in the Halo Wars demo. Or all air units.

[SID]

I'd love the banshee if it could shoot at any direction while moving.... gotta luv the unit design of this cloakn sleek flyn machine

[BirdofPrey]

By far mah favorite choppa

[Major Willy]

I'd love to get to this choppa.

[Avrorius]

Hi, i like how this unit moves and looks and i personaly like the way the Bliz-guys've been managing the whole development of SC2 so far ( you need like the noble-prize award or smtn just for creating the masterpiece like SC alone!!!). But there are some things that just keep buggin me lately bout design, some things seem a bit out of sync. Take this banshee unit for ex, can anyone enlighten me bout the function of that rotating thing it's got at the back called the PROPELLER, what use is that in the VACUUM OF SPACE??? ;) I mean i'm all 4 improvement, but that looks like a step-back, doesn't it? i mean if it's suppose to replace wraith...(which performed great both in space and on surface of a planet). Although it's may be better on surface of the planet with some atmosphere, there's like no way it's gonna even move in space with those fans. Just give it some thrusters, or even better combine those two ( the fan and thrusters) to make it perform good in space and even better on surface (more speed) of some "rock with gas". If it'll move faster it'll be perfect as a emergency back-up unit, 4 hit and run air-missions and stealth backdoor charges.TNX. And then there's a marine... ;) ^_^

[burkid]

if you read the posts on this thread, youll see that banshees movement in space is majority of the discussion.

[Gasmaskguy]

and it doesnt even move through space! Its for planetary operations ONLY. The spaceplatforms got some kind of artificial air (i guess) and, it also shoots antiground missiles. What purpose would THAT serve in space? there is no ground units there... So its totally understandable that it got fans.

[Avrorius]

Hi, bout those bunshees flying abilities. All that there's on this thread bout the space-solution is that there must be some air on those platforms.
And saying " it's just a game" as another solution, is just an excuse 4 being too laisy to explain or think of a credible solution 2 the problem yourself. (It's like instead of thinking bout the issue, say the god made it 4 a reason and drop it, or else you might hurt yuorself and/or go to hell ^_^ :-\).

I don't remeber any glitches like that in original...are there any? It's just a game alright, so why than create smtn even remotely realistic or credible-looking or PC-games in general 4 that matter, let's just play good ol footbal or smtn.( i me self play tennis but that's not the friggin point ;) ^_^)
Why compare Mutalisk with Banshee?(or zerg and any other ter-unit?) they are like worlds appart!!! :-\ Zerg use bio-based evolution and Terrans develop all kinds of technology-based units, both have like totally different principles.
Anyway Bunshee looks and moves just fine, JUST GET RID OF THEM BLOODY ROTORS, can i hear "yeah!!!" ;D ;)TNX.

[Hadean]

Av. You dont need rockets to move through space. Infact, a simple burst of pressurized air is enough to move you at a fair speed. This would be all thats needed in space. And on a space platform, there MUST be air, so this is not just "a lazy excuse" Humans need air to breathe. They build space platforms. Therefore, spaceplatforms require air to host the Terrans. Regardless. In deep space, Banshees wont be going there anyway? They're meant for land operations as someone said before(Think it was gasmask man) they'd be completely and utterly ineffective in space.

[Gasmaskguy]

thanx for the suppport Hadean :)

@Avrorius
just think about why they NOT should have rotors! i mean, its gotta be story-wise cheaper than a bunch of rockets/thrusters! Those consume a lot of fuel! And the fans can also be very quiet, wich is perfect when it is cloaking!

[Avrorius]

Hi, Gasmaskguy, Hadean ^_^.I agree with you bout "presurised air burst" that'll be surely enough to move them, but if you compare this tech with thrusters it's not very efficient( comp with Wraith), is it?( no coordination in movement, lack of speed..)If they're meant 4 ground-ops, WTH are them terran air units gonna do without decent backup in space and all.
Terrans got those suits to breath, and all those other terran-units are sitting&chilling in them tech-war-machines. And i don't quite get why there MUST be air in space and round those platforms, but hey...
Bout them rotors, Wraith didn't have them as didn't Valkyrie and they performed just fine (no financial issues too aparently), so i don't think that argument gonna fly too ;) ^_ :)

P.S.Hey If i'm being too crytical just say so guys( i'll lay back ;) ^_^), but you got to see where i'm comming from... i want to see people give all they've got to achieve creative and other heights, and not use some secondhand ideas and hide behind statements like "there's no originality left in the world" to excuse their lack of inspiration, which maybe hush but hey...that's how it is sometimes ;) :)TNX

[Vindicatormsc]

i never really liked the idea of the Banshee's fans.it's too wierd for my liking.just give them some rocket thrusters or something like that,it would make much more sense

but if you don't,Blizzard,you better NOT do the "you can't use banshees in space maps" thing.trust me,DON'T...

[Quanta]

They'd never do something like that. Could you imagine the balancing issues of the Terran not being able to use their main ATG attacker and cloaking base raider???

[brc9210]

Avorius do you think that the marines have built in labs in their suits that just create oxygen? People LIVE on these platforms presumably so yes there would be some sort of atmosphere surrounding the platform. Also for deep space fighting you have the predator, Battlecruiser, and the Viking. Also just because Wraiths and Valkyries worked fine, if banshee's are better at their role and also more cost efficient(keyword more) then yes banshees are more useful.

[Bizarro_Paragon]

Terrans got those suits to breath, and all those other terran-units are sitting&chilling in them tech-war-machines...


Sorry Avrorius, but that's not necessarily true. Now, I'm not aware what the breathing situation is with Marines, Ghosts, and Firebats, so I won't touch those ideas.


And i don't quite get why there MUST be air in space and round those platforms, but hey...


However, you'll remember that in the Brood War expansion, there was a mission in the Terran campaign called the Dylarian Shipyards. If memory serves correct, this was the second Terran mission. The goal was to get as many Pilots into stolen Dominion Battlecruisers as possible, and then to use those stolen Cruisers in combat. The Pilot models were the same as the Civilian models.

http://entropyzero.org/files/zz_civilian.gif

Civilians, and thus, Pilots, can clearly be seen in the above picture as not having any breathing apparatus. Aside from his (completely random) cybernetic eye, and his microphone headset, he appears to be in standard clothing.

From this, we can draw the conclusion that not only is there an atmosphere present on these platforms, but the atmosphere is close enough to the atmosphere of a hospitable planet as to allow freely roaming humans.

As for battle that is completely in space, I assume the Terrans still have Wraiths for those. Unfortunately, none of the missions are ever in space (thankfully), so we won't be able to experience it.

[Quanta]

I am pritty sure space platfroms don't have air. For one thing, how would they hold an atmosphere in the first place? Second, I don't think your example proves that there is an atmosphere on space platforms. In a game where multalisks are seen in cinimatics as flying is open space, every clearly no where near an atmosphere of any kind, I don't think they care that much about those little details. Hence, why we have helicopers in space. It is no less logical that the multalisk.

Terran infantry, marines/firebats/medics/ghosts and presumably reapers have suits with full lifesupport. They can run around with in a vacume no problem. As for civilians, I just don't think Blizzard cares that much about such little details.

[Bizarro_Paragon]

Ah, but you forget that Blizzard explained the idea of mutalisks flying in deep space.

Specifically, they explained it by saying that they have no idea who the f*k they do it, they just do.

So it appears they do pay attention to the little details, Mr. Smarty Pants. :good:


EDIT: Oh, and it's the future. We can create artificial atmosphere already, so why wouldn't they be able to do it on a bigger scale in the future?

If we have any problem with fighting on space platforms, it should be how on earth they replicate gravity so well.

[Quanta]

touche

[Avrorius]

Hi, however bugging i might find the banshee's rotors, i think that Blizz-boys will eventually make things right. They've probably got like an army of great designers and smart ppl working 24/7. So If the Banshee is to stay than one can always find some believable explanation for it's functioning in space, especially coz it's future and ScFi-RTS theme ( OR maybe fewer space missions 4 terrans, given that the most of ter-conflicts happen on the ground, and they excel at those rather than space-warfare unlike protoss) Anyhoo, i just hope it'll be really good one( explanation i mean) ;) :).TNX

[DE.50]

I personally can't see space platforms having atmosphere, that just doesnt really make sense when you realize that all those platforms are square instead of a circle, which would be much easier to have a atmosphere around.
I think the banshees should have a something along the lines of a antigravity flotation device. This would work well with the stealth and noise matter, and would make the banshees capable of moving on platforms.
Also, in a pure space battle banshees would be useless as they are AG, and they would face all air units. So in that sense the fans make sense in that the banshees only need to be able to move where infantry can move.

[ninerman13]

All you guys who are saying that it doesn't make sense for space platforms to have atmosphere are thinking too close to the present. In the future/Starcraft era the problem of artificial gravity and air is probably pretty trivial. Also, we KNOW that artificial gravity is present (otherwise units would float away), so it is not far of a leap to assume artificial air as well.

The Banshee as it is now most likely does not function in deep space, but works fine on space platforms due to the artificial gravity and air, so unless Blizzard includes a deep-space Banshee in a cinematic, let's not worry about it.

As far as the Mutalisk goes - it is a Zerg. It is unknown how they function in deep space and for all we know the wings could simply be aesthetic or help maneuverability when in an atmosphere.

[ijffdrie]

the wings are for within the atmosphere, mutalisks almost never leave it, they got just enough gas in them to fly to a planet from a space-time rift the gaurdians and devourers got the most gas and tap it out of the atmosphere, they are in space in game actually, the creatures fart their way through space

[BnechbReaker]

well there are no pure space maps where there are no ground to build on, so i don't see what's the problem with the banshee. blizzard has already "explained"


Procyon Industries has been the latest to tackle the problem by approaching it from a different direction. Instead of attempting to adapt existing aircraft designs for a role they were never intended to fulfill, the technicians at Procyon designed the banshee from scratch. As a planetary craft, the banshee wouldn't need high-powered engines to achieve escape velocity and fight in orbit, so instead technicians fitted it with economical twin turbofans. Any air-to-air weaponry was deemed unnecessary: the banshee would only hunt ground targets. Thus, it was equipped with powerful air-to-ground cluster rockets.

The resulting aircraft was cheap, relatively robust, and well suited to its intended role of making tactical strikes on the battlefield. The banshee was adopted by the Dominion as a light infantry support craft that could be quickly transported to any world. Despite the banshee's many fine traits, Dominion commanders initially derided its apparent inflexibility and relegated banshees to a minor support role in backwater militias.

[Gasmaskguy]

Bout them rotors, Wraith didn't have them as didn't Valkyrie and they performed just fine (no financial issues too aparently), so i don't think that argument gonna fly too ;) ^_ :)



i said STORY wise cheaper, not game-wise. There is a difference. And they are not that bad with speed! just look at the videos with em! totally acceptable.

[Gasmaskguy]

I noticed a colour change in the first of the new screenshots. It looks less dark and more shiny now, it's more like the Cobras bluegrey colour scheme.

[Thalion]

actually, previous image looks better... many units has tendency to turn into shiny toys... damn, its battlefield... units now are "Too fresh, too clean" :)

[DE.50]

It could be that in the second shot the terrain is having an effect of the color since it is brighter or something.

[Chax424]

Going back to the naming, how about Phantom or Specter?
I breazed throuhg the 15 pages and I don't think either of those have been sudgested, I apologize if they have.

[Hunter]

I noticed a colour change in the first of the new screenshots. It looks less dark and more shiny now, it's more like the Cobras bluegrey colour scheme.


I heard something that there were too many compliments about the "toy-like" unit colours, so maybe this is the fist step of changing the shining units to something realistic. Btw, the first image is still better...

[Psionicz]

I noticed a colour change in the first of the new screenshots. It looks less dark and more shiny now, it's more like the Cobras bluegrey colour scheme.


Oh wow, now if all the Terran mechs has that colour scheme of the first picture, it would be just right!

[Indigent]

I would rater have an all purpose fighter with cloak like a wraith instead of changes for the bashee. :(

[Dinoxe]

Yeah, don't change the Banshee it is fine, the Terran need a all around fighter like the wraith but stronger and maybe without the cloak

[Wlck742]

The wraith wasn't an all-around fighter. It was an air superiority fighter that was good at taking out enemy air units. It had a pathetic ATG attack that made it useless against everything but melee units and small groups of dragoons, hydralisks, and marines.

[Indigent]

Well, then that. Maybe something like 10 attack, 24 air attack. Or something.

[Wlck742]

That kind of is like the viking, only the viking has to transform to attack air or ground.

[Indigent]

I'd rather have a wraith- like thing with those stats then a transformer. Hope we can keep both though. Just me though. Wraiths are too cool to be put out.