Ideas for new Zerg Mechanics. (Post your theories and ideas)

[Ych9]

After seen the huge revamp of both the Terran and Protoss in SC2, one can only wonder what the Zergs will get in order to compensate them. Both the Terran and Protoss got mechanics that we would have never thought of. This thread will be a discussion thread on the kinds of mechanic upgrades that the Zergs in SC2 will get. It won't be a discussion on new Zerg units because it is impossible to judge what kind of new units the Zergs are going to get. Since the Terrans and Protoss got mechanics that we would have never thought of, I would assume that the Zergs will not have mechanics that are very simple like increase the larvae rate of birth. So I will go deep into my theories and try to think of something that is more far stretched. Here are my ideas.

As we can see, both the Protoss and Terran have abilities that build around their Supply. Protoss can warp-in into any place that is in Psi Range. Their new unit Phase Prism is a unique concept that can act as a mobile pylon that can have Psi Matrix anywhere it uses the power ability. Terrans on the other hand, got upgraded Supply depots that can submerge into the ground. From these, I am assuming that the Overlords might get some upgrades. My ideas is that Overlords can create a small portion of creeps on the ground for 1 minute. They would then of course have a cooldown of 1 minute before they can lay another creep. This would be useful if you were to expand, and wanted some creeps first so you could build some defence before your expansion goes up. Another mechanic is that creeps in general would make your ground units regen faster.

Another mechanic that I think would be suitable for the Zergs is that when your smaller and weaker units travel in a swarm, your units will go berserk and attack faster. (Small bonus like 5%) This would actually encourge the Zergs to attack in swarms. By swarms, I mean units that have the numbers in 12 +. (Zerglings needs to be 24) The units that recieve the berserk ability must be their own type of units. That means if you have 24 Zerglings, and 12 Hydralisk, the Zerglings and Hydralisks will go berserk, but they won't stack because they are both different type of units. But if you have 24 units of that particular unit, the berserk rate would double, and 36 would triple, and vise versa. Therefore, the 5% bonus would eventually stack up and become very powerful. This ability would of course, not work on the higher tech units. Units that comes into mind that would have this berserk ability are Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, or any other lowered tech Zerg units that aren't revealed in SC2 yet. Anything else won't have this ability.

My last mechanic that I could think of is actually something that Blizzard will most likely implement. This mechanic is that some Zerg units would be able to travel underground. While travelling underground, they would travel very very slow. (Reavers speed). This ability can result into some surprise attack like dropping some units at the very side of your opponent, burrow and travel to his worker line and then attack before he notices it. (If he doesn't have any detectors or defensive structures that is).

Well, that's it for my ideas on the new Zerg Mechanics. Post yours.

[SirBaron]

One suggestions that's been object to much discussion is the ever-present "Enemy units slower on Creep." While i am not biased against it, it's hard to apply without very proper testing, since too little slowdown would be useless and too much would be OP.

My idea is something i'd like to call "Creep-bond", which is that Zerg buildings near eachother "share" hp and spread damage over all buildings that's near eachother, say a medium to large radius - for example, if you have a hatchery, an extractor, a spawning pool and two sunken colonies, when one of the sunken colonies are attacked, it's damage taken is spread out over all five structures. While this may seem a bit "ooookay, easier for them to just kill me, concentrate on the defense and kill my entire base in the process..." it also works in the opposite way, that the more buildings you have near eachother, the faster they regen when damaged. Also, this may apply unit-unit when on creep but on a slightly smaller scale.

[BaneOfHumanity]

My idea is a redeployable nydus cannal...move the same nydus cannal from one spot to another...

Another idea is to give the ability for the zerglings and hydra to eat the bodies and regain health...bodies of terran, protoss (if any) and zerg alike....

[kehmdaddy]

One idea that I think may get implemented, similar to Ych9's, is that the Overlord will be able to plant itself into the ground and kind of become a creep colony. It wouldn't spread it out as far, but create a circle of creep within a small radius of it. This could be useful for support after drops, allowing the injured units to regenerate, or for expansion defense.
Another idea I was thinking about is that the Zerg defensive units, assuming they're still the Sunken and Spore colonies, would be able to kind of uproot, similar to the Night Elf Ancients, and either relocate or even go on the offensive, though they would slowly lose health once removed from the creep.
My last idea is that the Zerg units would be able to evolve and change forms; for example the Hydralisk, the bread and butter of the Zerg swarm, would be able to evolve into a Lurker, a kind of cliff climber unit, maybe a kind of powerful melee unit, or perhaps a weak flyer. However, the Hydralisk would be able to change back to the normal form for some sort of price, and then change to another for more resources. This would go along with the Zerg's ability to evolve incredibly rapidly; story wise, the Hydralisk may have evolved into various forms and eventually learned to control its genes so that it could evolve and mutate on the spot. To balance this, while metamorphosing the Hydralisk would be incredibly vulnerable and it would cost a certain amount of resources for each unit to mutate each time. This could also be true for the Mutalisk, some sort of new unit, or even the Zergling, and each form would originally be researched through an upgrade.

[GuiMontag]

1. having smaller creatures less responsive to your controll when you dont have overlords/queens nearby, this is a classic weakness of insect like races. They could also introduce the cerebrate, which when built will give you full controll of your units as long as the cerebrate is alive. It wont change gameplay drastically, and would also make sense from a story line perspective considering all of broodwar missions are about kerrigan keeping the swarm under her controll :P

2. more advanced infestation abilities, take for example parasite. They could make it so that when hit with parasite you gain that units los for a small duration, then that unit becomes under your control after mayb 60 seconds. It would also be good to be able to infest more building types with queens, eg all terran production buildings can be infested like a CC but they will only produce the same type of infested unit for balance reasons.

3. The stealth abilities of the zerg were a big part of the sc1 storyline, with them infesting planets without the terrans having any knowledge of it. Zerg should have a 'invisible' creep, as in an area around their base that they can spawn from, hopefully the nydus worm is already using this mechanic, if not then i think it should be introduced.

4. They should introduce an advanced version of the mutate ability for several units. Like being able to choose between morphing hydralisks into lurkers or hunter killers. This would be really awsome if they really let you choose how to build your swarm, starting off with basic 'stock' units and then evolving them to deal with specific threats. Blizz will definately put this in ;D

[zeratul11]

the underground movement is nice but i think only the lurker will get that ability. i hope the lurker can move underground (slow) but can be seen (crack or uplifting of terrain where the lurker moves).

heres one idea. zerg can now infest enemy structures(unit builder) like barracks, stargate, cc, nexus etc, and larvae will grow and you can spawn (only) zerglings from them.

[SirBaron]

You just gave me an idea, zeratul11:

Infest applies to all buildings, but instead of capturing the building and allowing it to produce specialized units, it explodes into 12-24 Broodlings.

[zeratul11]

yeh, and the broodlings should have no time limit etc. and it should be 24 broodlings.

i hope they get rid of the queen and replace it with something new that it also capable of fighting for the swarm. how about the overlords doing the infestation instead?

another idea..a tier 3 upgrade that allows zerglings and hydralisk to climb up cliffs or they will make themselve a tower or poll to reach the top of the cliff like the bugs in starship troopers or in treamors 2. lol

[Dreadnought]

Perhaps the zerg will get the ability to be consumed again and you get minerals + vespene back. It would make sense... The zerg eat their own then use the material to create different types of zerg. Maybe the drones could eat enemy units and return them to the hatchery for minerals. Make the zerg able to adapt and grow in size the more they fight :)
Hmm another idea is that the zerg overlords could morph into 4 zerglings or 2 drones. So you could attack enemy expansions by simple floating your overlords over their base and morphing them into zerglings ;)
Heres an interesting mechanic that would be fairly simple. Whenever a zerg unit dies you get 2/5 its price back.

[ramdon]

Very nice ideas, I especially like the overlord ability to change into creep and underground movement for lurker.

Let me try to brainstorm a bit too :) My ideas consist in general of everything that helps making the zerg an even more evil horrifying alien insect race.
In general I think things like canibalism, parasiting, acids etc could all be visualised in a much more creepy way.
Some other thoughts:

- Overlords could be given the ability to transport Larvae as well

- It would be nice if spawn broodlings actually showed broodlings killing the unit.

- In my opinion parasite shouldn't be a spying mechanism, but an actually parasite. It should only work on organic units, slowly killing the unit while a zerg grows inside it. Driving it insane, after a few sec, killing his friends. And in the end it dies as the zerg hatches, maybe even a special zerg unit that can only be build in this way.

- The spying could still be done by the queen or even an overlord, but spit some spore instead that attaches to metal units, granting it's line of sight to the zerg player until it's killed.

- The Queen could actually be a queen and be able to lay eggs. Even 1 egg per queen would be cool.

- A big melee zerg unit which doesn't shoot or stab units, but eats them. If the zerg is killed while the unit is still digesting, that unit survives (Like the kodo in wc3). Can only be used against organics. Downside is that it's so nasty that if it doesn't have any orders automaticly starts eating small organic units nearby, even if those are zergs.

- I always felt zerg was hard vs air. Problem with devourers was that their attack was so slow, maybe they would be better if their attack was a damage over time. Scourge is a cool concept, I hope they keep them, but make them smarter, if you send 12 and the first 2 kill the enemy, the other 10 survive. Maybe scourge could get an attach ability, which also does damage over time instead of the suicide blast. In the end the scourge dies too but it did much more damage over a longer time.

- A zerg ability that can cocoon/web an enemy unit for a minute. When it's cocooned a drone can pick it up and when it brings it to a hatchery in time it's converted in resources. If not in time the unit is freed and probably easily kills the drone.

[ramdon]

Yes maybe you are right. Just a silly idea that popped up anyway :)
In defense I could say that you take quite a risk with your drone, the cocooned unit is probably in enemy territory. And if you don't make it in time it's probably lost because the un-cocooned unit will kill it.
Also the fact that your drone is away from your base for some time, not gathering resources, probably costs more than you gain with delivering the cocoon.
It could also be balanced by making it able to only cocoon smaller units and maybe only have enough cocoon material to use it one time.

[PowerkickasS]

-sunkens with a medium AoE spike. its aim is randomized and inaccurate, like an artillery. massive damage on direct hits but trails of its underground movement can be shown and thus dodged.
-offensive sunkening + overlord creep ability
-manifestation of some buildings w/o sacrificing a drone"
-specific buildings or super-units requiring the melding of multiple drones
-alive buildings which could uproot and move (yay night elves ;D)
-hive skill which directs all the swarm to assault a point
-a totally remodded dark swarm. a huge thick black static cloud emitted by a very expensive unit (new defiler?), covering all allied units and that only you and allies could see into. also appears on terran radar as a large covered area of units. a zerg version of a radar jammer and cloaking field at the same time
-faster cocoon morphs but with a much more realistically vulnerable HP
-extension to cannibalism: remake on consume for some zerg units. (whether on top of additional general upgrades or they're non-existent at all) consuming your own minions upgrades your men to a point
-creep damages enemy units. creep retracts much faster than sc1 when colonies/etc are destroyed
-new ensnare which actually holds enemies to the ground -_- but could still attack (someone mentioned this)

agreeing with ideas of:
"entrenched creep"
"control" units and buildings (lords + cerebrate)
"group-frenzy-bonuses"

[DDDx]

My idea is the creep can absorb your own units to get resources back, alot of peopol already thought of something like that. but why stop at just absorbing units? havent you ever placed a zerg building and latter on just found out it was useless and took up space and you had to kill it your self? i have, so i say they should have the creep being able to absorb your own units and buildings back into resources.

[PowerkickasS]

right before an enemy kills your expo or spire??? o_O
as long as you dont get too much back. less than half
sounds very zerg-like, begin able to sacrifice and recycle + the fact that they cant die forever =D

[Darktemplar_L]

Underground moving Zerglings.

[TidalSpiral]

Two words: Infested Nexus. :| It better happen!

Otherwise I like the underground movement concept and I actually do like Zerataul11's idea but to a much more limited extent - like maybe if you lose a Hatchery/Lair/Hive then all Zerg in a radius of it go out of control for five seconds, attacking a random target nearby, even your own units.

Two more words: Infested Archon. I can only dream.

Or cry. Or wonder why... oh no. The marijuana has eaten my brain! :O MJ ftw!!!

[Ych9]

I love the idea that the Overlords can transport Larvaes. I think that it's possible Blizzard might implement it. Larvaes are living things too, and it makes sense for the Overlords to transport them. This would create a lot of new strategies for the Zergs.

I think one of the main mechanics that we can expect for the Zergs in SC2 is the Investation. I think Blizzard is going to really focus on this ability to do something unique and useful. Probably something that is a high proity for the Zergs to do in game.

[zeratul11]

how about larvae can move. hahah. imba. i just hope that lurkers can move underground and you can see them moving and some zerg unit capable of climbing cliffs.

[Darkreaver]

Hopefully if blizzard does that overlord transport for larvae, they limit some things on it b/c like red_dragoon said, zerg players are definately gonna abuse the transport ability. Maybe limit how many go into an overlord (even something ridiculous like 1 larva per ovie) or a high tech upgrade...or both

[StormCrow]

1st They should make lurkers able to climb up cliffs (with an evolution maybe?).

2nd Would be fun if some Zerg air units recieved burrow. Mutas with their spiked tail? Oh that would be so awsome!


3rd Nydus worm ability: The eye from beneath!

- The Nydus worm has an ability to scout targeted area by popping out a tentacle that has an eye at the end of it.

- ( ( o ) ) I see your SCVs... Brains... O.O

[opm]

One suggestions that's been object to much discussion is the ever-present "Enemy units slower on Creep." While i am not biased against it, it's hard to apply without very proper testing, since too little slowdown would be useless and too much would be OP.

My idea is something i'd like to call "Creep-bond", which is that Zerg buildings near eachother "share" hp and spread damage over all buildings that's near eachother, say a medium to large radius - for example, if you have a hatchery, an extractor, a spawning pool and two sunken colonies, when one of the sunken colonies are attacked, it's damage taken is spread out over all five structures. While this may seem a bit "ooookay, easier for them to just kill me, concentrate on the defense and kill my entire base in the process..." it also works in the opposite way, that the more buildings you have near eachother, the faster they regen when damaged. Also, this may apply unit-unit when on creep but on a slightly smaller scale.
i quite like that. would improve the rush defense significantly. cheers!
1. having smaller creatures less responsive to your controll when you dont have overlords/queens nearby, this is a classic weakness of insect like races. They could also introduce the cerebrate, which when built will give you full controll of your units as long as the cerebrate is alive. It wont change gameplay drastically, and would also make sense from a story line perspective considering all of broodwar missions are about kerrigan keeping the swarm under her controll :P

2. more advanced infestation abilities, take for example parasite. They could make it so that when hit with parasite you gain that units los for a small duration, then that unit becomes under your control after mayb 60 seconds. It would also be good to be able to infest more building types with queens, eg all terran production buildings can be infested like a CC but they will only produce the same type of infested unit for balance reasons.

3. The stealth abilities of the zerg were a big part of the sc1 storyline, with them infesting planets without the terrans having any knowledge of it. Zerg should have a 'invisible' creep, as in an area around their base that they can spawn from, hopefully the nydus worm is already using this mechanic, if not then i think it should be introduced.

4. They should introduce an advanced version of the mutate ability for several units. Like being able to choose between morphing hydralisks into lurkers or hunter killers. This would be really awsome if they really let you choose how to build your swarm, starting off with basic 'stock' units and then evolving them to deal with specific threats. Blizz will definately put this in ;D


i agree with pretty much all your points, and in particular, your final point.


i especially like the concept of infestation. It not only fits the race, but it is the ultimate leveler of races. it really fixes a lot of the balance issues imo

[Star-Crap]

A leech unit or cast would be pretty crazy

I guess it would work like the reapers bomb but the difference is that it takes health as long as its their rather than just have it blow up over when times up. i guess you would be able to take it off the same way that you would a reapers bomb.

but I guess thats kinda how plague works

[kehmdaddy]

Lurkers being able to move up and down cliffs would be pretty cool looking, although I'd prefer if they could move around underground. They've always been one of my favorite Zerg units. The Nydus worm sticking a tentacle out of the ground to check out what's above him is very cool. It would look sweet and it would give your enemies a heads up on what's about to knock on their front door.

[Wlck742]

I'd like Lurkers to move underground too, but it could get a bit unbalanced. They're similar to Seige Tanks in that they have to be stationary to attack, or attack more powerfully in case of the Tanks. Imagine having Seige Tanks that could move around and attack at the same time.

An egg-laying Queen would be cool, as will Larvae transporting Overlords. That would make it easier to expand or do some surprise drops.

Also, how about an ability where Zerg buildings can absorb units into themselves to restore health, increase damage/armor, faster construction/upgrades depending on the unit/building used. For example you could have a sunken absorb a hydra, and the sunken will have extra range or damage, absorbing a muta to a Spore colony or sunken to hit multiple units, or sacrificing a drone at an Evolution Chamber/Hatchery/Lair/Hive to increase upgrade/unit construction speed. There'll have to be a limit on the number of absorptions a building could have for balance reasons, like up to four hydras, four drones, eight lings, etc and no high tech units. And the building could have a new look associated with the upgrades, like additional spikes for hydra-infused sunkens or a brain-like mechanism at an Evolution Chamber that has absorbed a drone.

[stat]

2 zerg unit (mutualisk + hydralisk) combined and mutate into a new completely new zerg unit aside from each unit evolution(hydra-lurkers).

[Remy]

=== CREEP MECHANICS ===

I agree that Zerg units should regen faster on creep, I've always wanted this even from back in early SC1 days. I also like the idea of overlord providing creep, but I have thought things into more detail.

I think the overlord should have a "mode" in which it plants into the ground(become ground targetable) where it spreads a fair radius of creep, but there would be a minimum cooldown time before it can go back to "ovie mode" again. The creep mode can be used to provide increased HP regen for your troops away from your base, as well as allow buildings to be put up at remote locations. The minimum cooldown is there so you can't constantly switch out ovies to be in creep mode and have fast HP regen all the time while your ovies are mostly safe from ground attacks. The cooldown makes them ground targetable and provide counter strategy for opponents. The cooldown would need to be long, at least 30 seconds, although you would still be able to keep ovies in creep mode beyond the cooldown time.

I think the creep mode should be innate, you have it right from the start without needing to research an upgrade. You can choose to lay down creep in your opponent's base with your first scouting overlord to disrupt building, it would add another interesting mechanic to Zerg early game.

To go along with that I think there should be a third evolution for the creep colony, something like an advanced creep colony. It should to be very cheap, perhaps 25 minerals for the upgrade, and its sole purpose would be to generate a creep radius that's much larger than the standard creep colony. The idea is that along with the ovie creep mode, you can "creep rush" someone, but since ovies are rather flimsy and not good to lose early on, you can plump down an advanced creep colony to disrupt your opponent's building. Of course it doesn't completely prevent your opponent from building(if it did it would be OP/imba anyway), but you can prevent them from placing buildings where you don't want them to, such as delaying a Terran opponent from barricading his choke for instance. As another example, creep rushing might be used in attempt to delay an opponent from expanding to his natural.

If all this is implemented, Zerg players would have the option of sunken rushing(non-Zerg opponents) for the first time, as well as having options of the new "creep rush."

=== ACIDIC BLOOD ===

Acidic blood, an early upgrade(tier 1, tier 2 latest) that alters the genes of all Zerg to have their blood, bodily fluids, and all the juices and whatnot become highly corrosive acid. What this would do is, when Zerg units(ground as well as air, perhaps even buildings) go splat! upon death in a pool of blood, it deals damage to enemy(not allies) units/buildings around them.

It would have a very small effect radius, dealing damage to adjacent units/buildings only. The damage dealt would need to be extremely small for balance, something roughly equal to 50~100% of the damage the unit deals in a single attack. However, I think it should be calculated based on the unit's max HP, because banelings shouldn't deal noticeable damage when killed, and calc based on unit's normal attack damage would make it too high for units like baneling or scourge.

I think damage equal to 5% of a units max HP would be quite adequate, not too much to be OP but still enough to add to Zerg racial identity as well as provide an edge in battle. But I also thought, to make it even more interesting, make the Acidic Blood upgrade work with units' armor upgrades(not base armor), where each upgrade adds 1 to the acidic blood damage, 1 point NOT 1%.

So based on SC1 stats, each zergling would deal 2 points(1.75 rounded up) of range 1 AoE acidic blood damage upon death, 3 damage with level 1 armor upgrade, 4 damage at +2, and 5 damage at max armor upgrade. Hydras would deal 4 damage when they die, mutas would deal 6, ovies would deal 10, scourges and larvae deal 1, ultras deal 20, and eggs deal 10. I think perhaps ultra's Chitinous Plating armor upgrade(if ultras are back) should also add to the acidic blood damage equal to the amount of +armor.

=== SWARMING/CLINGING ===

Zerglings should be able to jump onto enemy units and buildings and cling onto them allowing more others zerglings to be able to attack the same target at once. This could be for any fast small units that have melee attacks, but I don't know what other units this idea would be suitable for, seems to be only zergling at the moment.

How many zerglings can cling onto one target should depend on the target's size. Small units like marines or zealots should not have any zerglings cling onto them. Medium units should have around 1~2 zerglings clinging onto them, and large units should have about 3~4. Large buildings and fat boys like the Thor might allow even 1 or 2 more on them.

Basically, the idea is that once a target is within melee range of a zergling, it can jump on and cling to it. The clinging zerglings would still deal damage the same way they would otherwise, same damage and same attack rate. This would still provide the benefit of allowing more zerglings to taret the same thinga at once to overwhelm it with a swarm, as well as against fleeing units. If a Terran microed a cobra against lings but got too close, 1 or 2 lings could jump onto it and hang on while it moves about.

The lings that cling onto the enemy would not be directly targetable nor can they be shaken off in any way. But those lings that cling take damage every time the host unit attacks, all lings that are clinging will receive the damage at the same time but the damage is shared equally among all the clinging zerglings. For example, a host unit deals 20 damage per hit and there are 2 lings that are clinging on, each zergling would take 10 damage every time the host units attacks even though it's targeting something else.

Another thing is, the lings that are clinging on will receive damage if the enemy player attacks the host unit with the enemy player's own units(not from friendly Zerg units attacking the host). For instance, you have 2 zerglings on a Protoss Immortal, and the Protoss player takes his other Immortals to attack the one with lings on it, the Immortal and the 2 lings would all take 100% damage from the shot.

The idea was pretty simple when I thought it up, but I think I made it sound more complicated through my explanation.


=== INSTANT UNLOAD ===

I mentioned this before I think in the nydus worm thread. The Zerg overlord, if it's back otherwise the air transport equivalent, should be able instantly drop ALL the units that it carries with "unload all." This should also be a Zerg exclusive, Protoss and Terran should not be given this feature, yet Zerg needs it.

As I've explained in the nydus worm thread, Toss and Terran both have powerful units as awsome drop options. Tank and reaver deals great damage per hit, and you can one-two pop them in and out of the dropship/shuttle during their attack cooldown to avoid taking hits. Even just two tank/reaver in one dropship/shuttle can be effective, they are certainly extremely powerful. The added possibility of microing to cover their weakness of slow attack rate(long cooldown) yet still able to deal damage effectively is another plus.

The Zerg has never had such drop options. All of Zerg is about strength in numbers, and individual Zerg units are very weak. I think it would benefit the Zerg to be able to insta drop a full load, or at the very least at a highly increased rate over the other races. Maximum carrying capacity of the overlord might need balancing for insta drop.

=== LARVA PRODUCER, AKA "ZERG TURTLE" ===

I think this is something I suggested in the fate of the ultralisk thread, it has been dubbed the "zerg turtle." It is a large high tech(probably tier 3) ground unit that produces and carries larvae on its back, basically a mobile hatchery. The reason why I'm suggesting this over the idea of overlord transporting larva is because of balance. A unit would cost mineral and gas just to have for this purpose, but more importantly it would take up food supply. Since each "zerg turtle" would only produce up to a fixed maximum number of larvae and they take up food themselves, you are then faced with a balance equation X food per Y remote larva. You have to keep the number of zerg turtles in careful balance, because each one takes up food and resources that could otherwise go into producing more combat units.

On the plus side, having a couple of them near the frontlines can prove useful in quickly replacing key units or just a few combat units that fell in battle. For instance, if the enemy hunted down your caster units that you really need to turn the tide of battle, you can produce a few more with the zerg turtle to replace the ones you lost.

The exact amount of supply cost as well as resource cost per zerg turtle would need testing and balancing, but I think perhaps 3 food per turtle would be adequate. The larva spawn rate should also be equal to the hatchery and not the increased rate of lair or hive.

[DontHate]

hmm... i have an idea. Perhaps the zerg can infest any building they want. For example, if they infest a barracks, they can make all the units in the barracks with the same type of attack and health but it's infested, which makes it cooler. Also they can infest the factory, starport, gateway, and so on (maybe not the robo facility). they can also infest the nexus or scv. Doing this will allow them to create infested scv's or probes. The probes build anything but they can be used for mining. So after a zerg player takes over an expo they just infest the expo and they auto maticly get that expo without needing to wait to build a hatchery.

[zeratul11]

i like the zerg turtle idea. i hope blizz will think and come up with this one or at least almost similar to this. yes a new unit that carries larvaes. zerg are monsters and they need more huge unit like the ultralisk.

swarming and clinging is nice to look at, but i prefer zerg units (new) that can crawl up a cliffs or higher grounds.

"I think the creep mode should be innate, you have it right from the start without needing to research an upgrade. You can choose to lay down creep in your opponent's base with your first scouting overlord to disrupt building, it would add another interesting mechanic to Zerg early game."

^ same mechanics as the protoss. pylon canon rush or phase prism on remote locations and warp units or create canons (overlord using the ability of creating creep then use nydus canal or create sunken). i think its imba specially early games.

[Remy]

Ummm... cannon rush was never an imbalance.

All types of tower rushing was hard enough to pull off successfully against equally skilled opponents(assuming you're skilled to begin with). People who consistently fall to it are usually hardcore turtlers, people who don't scout, or people who never look at their mini map. All of the above are not examples of skilled play, not even intermediate.

But either way, you can bet on cannon/bunker rushes be in SC2 once again. It will at least level the playing field for Zerg since we never had our version of cannon rush.

[zeratul11]

ah, ok. sorry. yes you are right. equally skilled player anticapates most of the time what their opponents will do. i just dont like it in b-net, sometime you fight against noob(cannon rush works) and the next one you fight against a skilled player(90% of the time canon rush fails). i just hate seeing noobs losing against tactics use by pros ei, canon rush, bunker rush, building barracks near enemy base etc.. imba for noobs. i just hope they change the setting of b-net where you can choose to fight only those who are equally skilled as you.

[Ych9]

I really like the Zerg Turtle idea Remy.
It opens up tons of new startegies if there is a Zerg Turtle.

Like mentioned, the Zerg Turtle should definetely be way up the tech-tree. It should cost a lot, and have tons of HP

Also to add the idea to the Zerg Turtle, maybe it should have an aura that increases nearby units armor by 1.

I know that many people would think this is too Wc3ish but hear me out. I think the Zergs are actually very suitable for aura benefits in the SC universe. As you know, the Zergs are mindless creatures and controlled by the Overmind and Overlords. It would make sense if they are near some units, they are more civilized and controlled. A Zerg Turtle could work in a way in that it actually commands the Zerg units in battle. If the Zerg units are close to the Zerg Turtle, they would become more civilized and controlled, and therefore, would fight more efficiently.

[zeratul11]

good idea. armor aura given by the zerg turtle.

auras for the zerg! i think its about time to involve buffs and auras on starcraft, it will not be imba ofcourse same as on warcraft. anyway like you said its more suited for the zerg, which is correct, i like the idea of zerglings swarms going berserk(additional attack speed) if they reach this certain amount of number or a certain unit is with them.

for the protoss a new unit that gives additional AOE shield. costly like carriers tho.

terran i cant think of any, just give them a new terran mobile bunker train like unit. siege tanks plus this train owns. anyway just make it costly as the battlecruisers and a tier 3 unit to avoid imba.

[Wlck742]

Auras for SC? It's too much like Warcraft. If you want to give zerg an armor aura, might as well give them an infested Paladin.

[WuHT]

good idea. armor aura given by the zerg turtle.

auras for the zerg! i think its about time to involve buffs and auras on starcraft, it will not be imba ofcourse same as on warcraft. anyway like you said its more suited for the zerg, which is correct, i like the idea of zerglings swarms going berserk(additional attack speed) if they reach this certain amount of number or a certain unit is with them.

for the protoss a new unit that gives additional AOE shield. costly like carriers tho.

terran i cant think of any, just give them a new terran mobile bunker train like unit. siege tanks plus this train owns. anyway just make it costly as the battlecruisers and a tier 3 unit to avoid imba.




Nothing Wrong with Auras. Upgradeable Overlords that can actually "control" the zerg armies to simply fight harder. It doens't have to be just regular + damage/ +hp regen/ +armor/+movespeed/ +attack speed variants...

For a massing race, they're better off applying AoE buffs (as well was evolution chamber upgrades).

[kehmdaddy]

Remy, those are all brilliant ideas and I've been thinking about the Overlord landing and creating creep for awhile myself. I would power you up one, but I've done it in the last 72 hours, so you might have to remind me that you're deserving of one later. ^_^
Anyhow, here's a couple ideas I've got (and I'm going to borrow your format for them too, Remy):
=== HYDRALISK EVOLUTION: HUNTER KILLER ===
I have this posted in the Multiple Hydralisk Strains thread, but I love this idea personally. Hydralisks can currently evolve into Lurkers, but since Hydralisks are the bread and butter of the Zerg army, it makes sense to me to have them able to take different forms like the Mutalisk can. The Hunter Killer would be very similar to the Hunter Killer from the original in terms of looks; it is basically a big, reddish Hydralisk. However, this one would have two legs and it would be a melee attacker. It would be slightly hunched over as well. With its powerful two legs, it would have the ability to jump up and down cliffs. It would have similar health to the Hydralisk but do slightly more damage and have a very fast attack speed; when it attacks it could rear its head up in rage and then come down with its scythe arms and just tear its opponents to shreds. Other ideas I've had about this unit are that maybe when it attacks an enemy unit, as it gets more hits in, or alternatively, as it gets more kills, it starts to attack faster or perhaps gain a permanent damage increase. Maybe every five kills it would gain one damage bonus or a slight boost in attack speed; the maximum bonus would be the third or the fourth gained at either 15 or 20, respectively. This could come as an upgrade, and perhaps a movement speed increase would come along with it.

=== HYDRALISK EVOLUTION: SERPANX ===
A third possible form for the Hydralisk to evolve to would be the Serpanx. A lean, greenish creature with features similar to the Hydralisk, the Serpanx also has the ability to fly. It's wings come out of its shell everytime it is told to move anywhere, but when it is idle they remain behind its hardened carapace, like a beetle. The Serpanx is also a melee unit, however it must land to attack and cannot hurt air units. With its increased mobility, it would have a relatively quick attack, though slower and less powerful than the Hunter Killer. It's movement speed would be very fast. It would also have similar health to the Hydralisk. An upgrade available to it, however, would allow it to attack air units, as the Serpanx has learned how to better use its wings. A visual change with this upgrade would be that it would now have four wings instead of two and they would be larger and it would move much more efficiently. It would attack air units by hovering by them and attacking them with their tail, which would deal heavy damage to the enemy aircraft. To attack ground units, they would still have to land.

=== ZERG UNIT/BUILDING: CEREBRATE ===
We all know about the Cerebrates, but I've never quite understood whether they were giant worm creatures or not, since they seem to have many legs planted in the ground by them. Anyhow, my idea is that this is a unit built by a drone, that actually has the ability to move very slowly, except it can only move on creep. It would have very high hit points but would not have attack of its own. The reason why it would be so valuable, however, is that all Zerg on creep in a wide radius around it, since they are closer to the one giving their commands, are able to move and attack much faster and regenerate their health very quickly. This would go along with the advanced Creep Colony and the Overlord creep growing abilities, as this could make a creep rush much more valuable since a Cerebrate could move closer and closer to the enemy's base. The Cerebrate would be available with an Evolution Chamber and Lair, but its abilities (detailed below), would be researched separately at the Hive.
The Cerebrate would also have three abilities; the first: Jeepers Creepers (j/k, having trouble thinking of a good name, but maybe just Creepers). The creep directly surrounding the Cerebrate in a small radius around it begins to form into ten small Zerg units, for now called Creepers. These Creepers would be similar to the Broodling, but would have 20 health and do around 6 damage. The special thing about the Creepers is that upon their death, they would create a small patch of creep. They would have one minute life spans, so they would ideally be spawned with your Cerebrate right next to your target, or to create a path to that enemy by creating a creep path. This wouldn't have too high an energy cost or cooldown.
The second ability would make all creep the Cerebrate is attached to become poisonous to enemy biological units for one to two minutes. The creep would gain a slight chartreuse tint to it. This would be incredibly powerful so it would have to have a very hefty energy cost/cooldown. It would mostly be used for defensive purposes, but could also keep enemies tucked in their base while you brought your forces up to assault them, buying you time to prepare a heavy attack.
The third and final ability would be for the Cerebrate to evolve into an Overmind. This would cost a very large amount of resources and be basically as high tier as something can be. As an Overmind, the Cerebrate loses its ability to move, but all creep attached to it give units on them the "aura" bonuses that the Cerebrate gave before. Also, the Overmind loses its ability to cast the Cerebrate's spells. However, the Overmind constantly spawns Frenzied Creepers with minute long life spans, 40 health, and 7 damage. Each Frenzied Creeper becomes two normal Creepers upon death. They would have spawn times similar to the larvae at a Hatchery. This way not only are you always spawning more free units, you're also always getting units that can increase the size of your creep so that its added bonuses can reach your army and stop enemies from building on it.

[Wlck742]

I like the hydra evolutions, but the cerebrate and overmind seem a bit unpractical for me. I'm guessing that they cost a real lot of money, about 300-400 for cerebrate and even more to upgrade to overmind. If someone had enough money and time to make those, they' 1. spent money on nothing else and teched straight to cerebrates. 2. are playing againts a noob and are toying with them. 3. Have done everything else they could do and are just letting the game drag on for fun, which is the same as toying with the opponent. My guess is that it'll become obsolete like the Infested Terrans, and they'll be a novelty item.

[Remy]

I generally don't like addition of very super and high tech units, they generally see very little use in 90+% of actual games. I much rather have more medium-tech(late tier 1 to tier 2) units, so that the player is presented with more numerous and diverse branches of tech paths and choices.

Having one or two extremely powerful options at end game is quite pointless. While having MANY only moderately effective yet situationally viable options allow players the freedom of frequently switch up their strategy. And all these individually so-so options in fact come together to provide such dynamics, adaptability, and unpredictability, that as a whole they are far superior to any one power yet predictable option which will not be very accessible in real games anyway.

I want tech paths and options for Zerg in SC2 from Blizzard. MAD tech paths. An obscene number of tech paths. I want such an abundance of tier 1 and tier 2 tech options, that I will float like a butterfly and sting like a bee just from my unpredictable and ever changing tech builds.

[Wlck742]

Then there won't be enough room for all the buttons. :P

[SirBaron]

@Remy: I honestly gotta say i agree with you. After all, the Swarm is all about greater numbers of weak and moderate units rather than fewer numbers of strong units. :)

EDIT: Also, in addition to my "Creep-Bond" suggestion (see page 1, second post) i'd like to suggest what i call "The Three OV Roles". Essentially, it's three types of Overlords having three different uses. It begins with Overlord nr1, the "Normal OV" which like it's predecessor in SC1 produces food for the Zerg.

Late early-game/early mid-game, the player is presented with an upgrade to the OV called the "Carrier OV", which is a transport. Now, for the measly price of around 75 minerals and 50 gas, normal OV's could morph into "Carrier OV's", gain a bit of health, some armor and of course, the ability to carry Zerg.

Then, in early late-game, the player is presented with the third option, the "Response-enhancing OV", which does exactly what the overlords are described as doing - controlling the Zerg. For a moderate mineral price and a high gas price, the normal OV may morph into the "Response-enhancing OV", which when present near Zerg units, enhance them, making them more responsive = faster, increasing attack/movement speed by 5-10-20%, depending on what is deemed fairly non-overpowered. (i know someone mentioned this earlier, kudos to you)
This i think is reasonable, since the Zerg is all about masses of small units. Having a "buffer" to increase the effectiveness of those masses i think is a powerful addition to the Swarm rather than some bulky, superunit that goes down in 2 secs because of a lil summat summat called focus-fire.

[Remy]

I like the overlord idea.  I think you're basically saying keep the old ovie just the way it was, but add a new tier 3 unit, however all of this is presented as an overlord package in 3 separate stages of evolution/mutation.

You would still have to allow the sight range upgrade and the movement speed upgrade at lair.  But I think perhaps it would be better if everything is kept the same up until tier 2 then have the response-enhancing ovie as the only mutation at tier 3.

The reason is that the old way converts all of your overlords to transports universally, one research and all can transport.  The carrier ovie evolution adding HP and armor would be good in itself, however every ovie is a transport concept is a strength of Zerg.  For the enemy, every ovie they see could be a transport and could potentially be carrying troops, but since they are all that way they don't know which ones.

Having cheap and readily available transport decoys is a strength that's unique to the Zerg.  It is virtually impossible to distinguish the real from the fake because they are all real.  The carrier ovie evolution would allow each transport to become more resilient but at the same time it gives the enemy a way to pickout the transports, and in turn focus fire on them when in sight.  It is also more troublesome and overall costly to upgrade individual ovies, as well as less flexible.

But selective transport upgrade perhaps could still work, although I still think it will be less unique for Zerg.

The RE-ovie idea is pretty sweet.  The attack speed boost would need to be very small, as even a small increase in attack speed is tremendous when it's your swarm.  But even if both the attack speed and movement speed bonuses were kept at a minimum, I believe it will still be highly effective and worthwile.  All of your units will be able to close in faster and have increased chance of reaching their targets.  Attacking faster will allow the individually weak Zerg units to get in more hits before they meet quick deaths.  On top of that, everything combined goes incredibly well with the Zerg's overall swarming theme and the feel of frenzied murderous creatures, it's totally awsome.  But even better, adds yet another very unique mechanic to the Zerg.

I think as balance measures, the RE-ovie would have to have only small increase in HP over standard ovie while being relatively expensive to upgrade.  The RE-ovie would need to have reasonably low HP so it's possible for opponents to hunt it down and kill it with relative ease.  The cost to evolve each RE-ovie would have to be quite expensive so you can't just build a good number of them to compensate for your opponents hunting them down.  The only reason to need more than one would be to provide additional AoE anyway.

Overall, I love the idea SirBaron.  I'm sorry if some of it sounds like nitpicking, but it's serious feedback on my part.  Anyone putting ideas would love nothing more than serious feedback, amirite?  ::)

[kehmdaddy]

After reading your comments, you're all definitely right. I think the Hydralisk evolutions would be very useful and would go along with Remy's idea of wanting to have many, many tier 1/2 tech options. However, the Cerebrate/Overmind would simply not be worth the resources and would go against the main Zerg mentality- to swarm and have strength in numbers. SirBaron's Overlord idea is cool, I think each stage should just be an upgrade that would change all your Overlords to have the ability to transport and then at the Hive to boost your swarm's speed (if that's exactly what you were getting at, I misunderstood). I'd like to change my idea of the Cerebrate to make it more practical, because I still think it could be a useful and interesting unit... here goes.
=== CEREBRATE ===
Visually and story wise, the exact same as my other post and basically identical to the Cerebrates from SC1. It would be tier 2, requiring a Lair, and would cost around 175/250. The Cerebrate would be built by a drone, but would be a very slow moving, spellcasting unit. It would always have to remain on creep, but it would slowly expand the creep it was standing on, so if it were at the edge of your creep after it slowly grew some it could keep pushing up to make a path. It would have no attack; it's only defense would be that in a very small radius around it, the creep would be poisonous to enemy biological units and bring their health down relatively quickly. It would also slow down all enemy units trapped in it. Everywhere the Cerebrate moves, the poisonous path would stay for a very short while, so it would resemble a snail's slime trail. It would, however, have three powerful abilities.
1. Creepers- The creep surrounding the Cerebrate, in a radius a tad larger than his poisoned creep's circle, would spawn twelve small Broodling type creatures. They would have health in the range of 15-25, and do about 6 damage. They would move incredibly fast on creep, but slow down considerably when off of it and lose one health every ten seconds. Upon death, the Creepers would create a small path of creep. The Creepers would be very useful base defense, since they can move even faster than a crackling on creep so they could be a quick delay tactic while your really army can get back to guard your base. Also, they would be useful in that they could be moved outside of the Creep in such a way that they can help make a large path for your Cerebrate to walk upon. Finally, they would be useful for the creep rush tactic that has been talked about earlier in this thread. This ability would cost the least energy of the three.
2. Hive Mentality- When this is cast, all Zerg units on creep attached to the Cerebrate would temporarily gain a 7% boost to attack speed and 15% damage increase. Again, this ability is great for base defense and for furthering the usefulness of the creep rush tactic. This would cost about 3/5 of the Cerebrate's energy.
3. Forced Evolution- Up to six units that are basically touching the Cerebrate can be helped by the Cerebrate to evolve into something else. You must tell all 1-6 units to evolve into the same thing, and that can be any unit that you can build directly from larva. This costs all of the Cerebrate's energy, and would probably end up being abused by building 6 Zerglings from 3 eggs and then turning them all into Mutalisks, but this ability embodies the idea of Zerg evolution and adaptability. With the amount of energy it costs to use, it would probably only be used once a game.

Basically, my idea behind the Cerebrate is a unique kind of spellcaster, a "creep" caster; I loved the idea of using creep in an offensive manner, so I wanted to run with that. I've always been intrigued by the Cerebrate, so I figured this might be a good medium for it appear in the game. I realize my previous ideas about it would've made it very impractical, and even now it is more or less a unit that you would only see with one strategy in mind: offensive creeping. Its abilities still need some tweaking, I came up with them on the spot, but I think it could be a very unique and fun unit to use.

[ShdwyTemplar]

The Zerg defensive capabilities have been in the past to say the least pitiful at best with the Sunken Colony against attacks by ground units and Spore Colony against air attacks. So, why not introduce a more intricate form for the Zerg defense to be buffered.

The Zerg Creep Defense Grid Colony Concept

Part 1 Zerg Ground Unit Benefits Package
Concept: The Zerg would have another form of the Creep Colony building that would convert all Creep in a large grid radius (Unit measuring distance in SC on map) at a max of 24 grids to it into a more advanced form of Creep. The effects of this Creep would be different depending on the distance from the building. This building would act as a Support Building in a sense.

At 0-6 grid distances to the building units would experience regeneration at increased rates, faster attack rate, faster movement rates, and enemy units would be slowed.
At 6-12 grid distances to the building units would experience regeneration at increased rates, faster attack rates and faster movement rates.
At 12-18 grid distances to the building units would experience regeneration at increased rates, units will experience faster movement rates.
At 18-24 grid distances units would experience faster movement rates.

Part 2 Reinforcing the Basics
The second part of this concept is the effect of this Colony on other buildings in the grid radius, but will be split into two different sections for the buildings they apply for.

Non-Hostile Zerg Buildings
These buildings will receive a different buff than the hostile buildings as they serve a different purpose to the Zerg Swarm.

At 0-6 grid distances to the building other building’s experience increased rate of Zerg Strain Evolutions, increased regeneration, and damage reduction from all unit sources.
At 6-18 grid distances to the building other building’s experience increased regeneration, and damage reduction from all unit sources.
At 18-24 grid distances to the building other building’s experience increased regeneration rates.

Hostile Zerg Buildings
These buildings will receive a different buff than the non-hostile buildings as they serve a different purpose to the Zerg Swarm as well.

At 0-6 grid distances any defensive buildings experience increased sight range, increased attack range, increased attack speed, and increased damage reduction.
At 6-12 grid distances any defensive buildings experience increased sight range, increased attack range, and increased attack speed.
At 12-18 grid distances any defensive buildings experience increased sight range and increased attack range.
At 18-24 grid distances any defensive building experiences increased sight range.

Part 3 Aerial Effects
The third part of this Colony and its final use would be the grid and its effect on air units. This concept is a bit sketchy as it is one that I really think would not be viable. In the sense that I’m not sure it would affect the units that I’m trying to apply to it.

Enemy Aerial Fleet
At 0-6 grid distances to this building aerial units in the airspace will hit a cloud of acidic spores, which, will corrode the armor of their vessel, (Similar to Devour Acid Spores) applying four negative-one armor spores to the vessel.
At 6-12 grid distances aerial units in the airspace will hit a cloud of acidic spores and have three negative-one armor spores attached to the vessel.
At 12-18 grid distances to this building, aerial units in the airspace will hit a cloud of acidic spores and have two negative-one armor spores attached to the vessel.
At 18-24 grid distances to this building, aerial unit in the airspace will hit a cloud of acidic spores and have one, negative-one armor spores attached to the vessel.

*Note: all acidic spores will remain in effect while in the range of this building and take five seconds to dissipate per acidic spore outside of the grid range of this building.

Allied Zerg Aerial Fliers
This buff will be provided to the Zerg Aerial Swarms as they play a significant role in base defense at one point or another as well.

At 0-6 grid distances aerial fliers in the airspace will have an increased flight speed, increased attack, increased carapace armor, and an increased regeneration rate.
At 6-12 grid distances aerial fliers in the airspace will have an increased flight speed, increased attack, and increased carapace armor.
At 12-18 grid distances aerial fliers in the airspace will have an increased flight speed and increased attack.
At 18-24 grid distances aerial fliers in the airspace will have an increased flight speed.

Part 5 Grid Extension Upgrades
To help balance this Colony out a bit it would have three separate upgrades per Colony that would increase the grid size 0-6 as the initial grid. This initial grid would only receive one of the buffs at first. Then with each evolution it would get another trait added onto it. Evolving the creep and Colony steadily until it reaches it maximum potential for the area the building affects. To unlock each of these Evolution Tiers they would need to be initially evolved from the building that unlocks this Colony.

Evolution of Grid Buffs
0. 0-6 Initial grid buffs
1. 6-12 Initial and secondary grid buffs.
2. 12-18 Initial, secondary, and tertiary (third) grid buffs.
3. 18-24 Initial, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary (fourth) grid buffs.

Hopefully, a concept similar to this would be used as it would make the Zerg much more able to defend them selves. Although, I would rather expect this unit to be a Tier 1-4 as it would be able to grow and increase its buff as the Swarm evolves from Tier to Tier.

Tier 1: Building that can form this is able to be built. Initial Grid Colony is able to be built and the Evolution for this has been unlocked in the building that spawns the Colony allowing for the Evolution to the Building Tier 1 Grid Buffs.
Tier 2: Building that can form this is now able to unlock the Evolution to the Buildings Tier 2 Grid Buffs.
Tier 3: Building that can form this is now able to unlock the Evolution to the Buildings Tier 3 Grid Buffs.
Tier 4: Buildings that can form this is now able to unlock the Evolution to the Buildings Tier 4 Grid Buffs.

Well that should be all I write on this one. It’s an interesting mechanic to set the Zerg apart from the other races. Kind of a Super-building, which would contribute to the fact that Zerg won’t have a super unit and they need a building similar to this as it would be fully functional support that evolves like the Zerg do. The Building would also show an Aesthetic change as it evolved much like how a Zerg Creep Colony changes when it turns to a Zerg Sunken or Spore Colony. This change would be gradual for each part of the Evolution Tiers. Just another crazy idea from the Mind of ShdwyTemplar, hopefully it makes sense to some of ya.

And yes this took awhile to type. :P

[SirBaron]

The carrier ovie evolution would allow each transport to become more resilient but at the same time it gives the enemy a way to pickout the transports, and in turn focus fire on them when in sight. It is also more troublesome and overall costly to upgrade individual ovies, as well as less flexible.

Good point, good point indeed. Maybe it would be possible to just upgrade all regular ovies to carrier mode, and making re-ovie a sort of individual upgrade (like lurker/guardian/devourer, you get my point :)).
Overall, I love the idea SirBaron. I'm sorry if some of it sounds like nitpicking, but it's serious feedback on my part. Anyone putting ideas would love nothing more than serious feedback, amirite? ::)

That's right. No good idea is good at first glance, after all.

EDIT: The Pros/Cons of the Races (to indicate in which direction our suggestions should go (at least imho, i think some people are suggesting superunits too much (no offense))):
Protoss:
Pros: Very powerful allround units, they're tough against both ranged and melee (shields) and pack quite a punch in both ranged and melee (particularly noticeable with SC1 Zealot, who had thrice the damage of a zergling without upgrades).
Cons: Expensive. Cost much in resources and food and rely on Pylon power for expansion. Lack in numbers.
Terrans:
Pros: Extremely powerful ranged firepower. Expansive, does not rely on Creep or Pylon Power like the other races. Cheap defenses. Best at range.
Cons: No melee whatsoever. Weak air defense, ground defense reliant on infantry units (not necessarily in SC2 though). Dreadful in melee.
Zerg:
Pros: Low food cost, powerful in numbers. Easily accessible food (ovies) and fast unit generation (early zergling rush). Cheap units. Fast units, powerful melee race (due to the speed). Burrowing.
Cons: Base defenses take long to build, ground defenses are quite weak as well (sunken). Ultralisk, Queen and Infested Terran (plx remove them if you see this, Blizzard). Any powerful, expensive unit in general. Reliant on Creep.

[Wlck742]

Remove the Infested Terran? NO!!!! True I never used them against actual players, but they were such fun to use against noobs who don't even know what it is. ;D It's the manifestation of the Zerg motto: infest, infest, infest.

[Remy]

Let me throw out my analysis on SC1 races.

=== PROTOSS ===

PROS:

- Strong individual units. Protoss units can quickly destroy lesser units of the other races, and are tough enough to force their way to targets even under enemy fire. Protoss units are by far the most resilient and durable individually. Skillful micro of Protoss units to preserve them can go a long way.

- Protoss units all have specific strengths and advantages individually, while almost none that are overspecialized. Protoss units are generally all strong in a specific way with specific uses, almost none are just merely "not too bad all around." Only the scout sucked being impractical.

- Protoss has the best cloak capabilities with units that are perma-cloaked. Even the mobile detector is perma-cloaked, while the arbiter's cloaking field makes it possible to provide cloaking for any and all Protoss units.

- Protoss is the most advanced with the most powerful special abilities(spells). Protoss is the only race with three full fledge and complete caster units, there are also arguably no Portoss spell in that isn't quite powerful. The spells of Protoss make it possible to quickly turn the tide of battle against an outnumbering enemy force.

- Photon cannon is a convenient form of static defense being air and ground defense 2-in1.

- Protoss has good drop options for burst damage drop strats with both the reaver and the high templar. Reaver drop and hi-temp drop can deal obscene damage as soon as they are dropped, no need to wait until the normal attack of units rack up damage.

- A strength in tech structure having just about all core ground units produced from the gateway, while all combat air units are built from the stargate. Robotics facility offer a few additional support units.

- The Protoss's summon method of constructing structures is a great convenience. You can take just one probe to quickly queue up builds then put it right back to resource gathering or scouting immediately without having to wait around for structures to finish building. Also, for beachhead offensive positions or expansion sites, this means that most buildings with similar build times come online all together at once almost simultaneously so if one is done all is done and that position is secure.

- Protoss is arguably the least micro intensive race to play effectively at higher skill levels.

CONS:

- Protoss units are very expensive and have long build times. If Protoss is already losing a fight, especially on home grounds, it is sometimes almost impossible to produce replacement units quickly enough to spring back.

- Protoss structures require pylon for production and to maintain function. While this allows the Protoss to build any structure at remote locations, such as offensive cannons or beachhead gateways, this is still less convenient and efficient than Terran who can build anything anytime.

- All Protoss units and structures have a portion of their life pool consisting of Protoss shield. While is allows the Protoss to regenerate any and all shield portion of their lost(damaged) life pool, this is actually a con. All Protoss structures and units take full damage from all attack types for their entire shield portion of life pool. What's worse is that they are all highly susceptible to EMP which means around instant half life for most Protoss, this is bad when it's structures which is a huge amount of instantly lost HP and which are harder to replace due to cost and build time.

It also means that the non-shield HP portion of their life pool can never be regenerate by any means. Any Protoss unit or structure with damage done to their HP is permanent damaged goods and will stay that way till it is destroyed. This means that enemy assaults that damage the HP of Protoss units/structures have a better chance at completely destroying them in every subsequent assault.

- Protoss lacks a true high mobility hit-and-run harassment tactical unit. This would be the scout's role, however, due to its cost it is an impractical option.

=== TERRAN ===

PROS:

- Terran has very strong defensive capabilities. They can easily block off the choke/ramp to their starting main, or hold a defensive position firmly.

- Terran has the strongest worker unit. The SCV has 50% more HP than other race workers and has higher damage output. SCV is also the only worker that can repair buildings or mechanical units, SCVs can even repair each other.

- Terran is the only race that can actively regenerate the HP of any and all of its units and buildings, whether it is back in base on the defensive or on the battle field on the offensive.(I know there is Protoss shield battery but it sucks, thus, no one used it in multiplayer.) Terran is the most versatile in this way as they have active control over unit/building regen and can pull back units just to go back to the fight with full HP, also useful in countering focus fire on specific buildings.

- Terran has the most accessible, effective, efficient, and powerful ground siege unit, which is also great to use for drop strats. The range and power of the siege tank is obscene, longest normal attack range of all units/buildings in the entire game of SC1.

- Comsat station's scanner sweep is a very powerful and convenient recon tool. It is usable on any place of the map and is virtually risk free in the process. Also good for on the spot detecting anywhere on the map in a pinch.

- Although Terran lacks three full-fledged caster units(arguably only medic's heal ability is realistically useful, and ghost is a hybrid caster that's extremely weak combat wise to the point of being close to useless) has extremely powerful abilities that counter each of the other races specifically. EMP is insanely potent and useful against Protoss in all cases, while irradiate is quick death for most things Zerg and their little Zerg buddies around them. Lockdown is also there to counter any enemy mechanical unit that are troublesome on the battle field.

EMP also serves to quickly deny your Protoss or Terran opponent the ability to cast spells, in turn saving your units from eating them. And irradiate can also be used on Terran's own tanks or goliaths to repel attacks from lesser biological melee unit. Science vessel is IMHO, the best caster unit in the entire game of SC1.

- Terran can build anything anywhere anytime, without having to first build up a power source. They can erect a bunker or barracks anywhere right away without first building a power source or wait for creep production.

- Terran army carry immense momentum with the proper unit mix. All the Terran units work in great synergy and as a whole is a mobile fortress and a powerful juggernaut. It is hard to break through and take down a perfectly balanced Terran army played in the hands of a skilled player that has excellent micro.

- Terran can expand to island expansions easily and early by pre-building expo command centers and lifting off.

- Having a ranged unit as the basic infantry lets Terran have early anti-air capabilities automatically, and against enemy base with poor layout they can kill workers from behind minerals or enemy structures early on.

CONS:

- Terran's offensive rely on the mobility of their ground army, but they also rely on the ground troops for proper base defense. Against opponents who excel at speedy skirmishes from all directions hitting different places quickly one after another, Terran can be held back and their offensive timing delayed. Basically Terran can be thought of as one large unit that has to move out in one piece to attack effectively, but also use the same single large unit for defense. This is exaggerated somewhat to make a point, but it is the truth more or less. Terran is by far the race most reliant on momentum.

- All Terran biological units are relatively quite flimsy individually. If they are facing enough damage output from the enemy, they can be killed very quickly. Yet they are also generally not as numerous as Zerg units, so it is often impossible just power their way through to the opponent with brute force while under enemy fire.

- Terran is the race most susceptible to cloak strats. Even with comsat and turrets present, it is sometimes still possible to muscle the cloak strat through by quickly taking them out. Comsat can be tricked to deplete energy needed for scans with skillful micro and turrets can't retaliate against ground making them not much of a threat to ground units.

- Terran has limited cloak capabilities. They have only a few units, two to be exact, capable of cloaking, and they are both limited to cloaking only while there is sufficient energy available. If energy runs out or if hit with an EMP, the ability to cloak is lost.

- Terran is arguably the most micro intensive race to play effectively at higher skill levels. Against skilled opponents, it is often impossible to get good results without always having a good mix of many unit types.

- Terran has some units that are overspecialized which are only useful in specific situation or phases of a game.

=== ZERG ===

PROS:

- Starting out with an overlord at the start of a game is a big advantage early on as Zerg has better recon capabilities in the beginning. Zerg arguably has the best overall cloak detection capabilities.

- Overlord is a great all-in-one unit. Because overlord is the Zerg supply, Zerg is almost always with an abundance of detectors. They can also be easily upgraded universally into unit transports, so you will always have a good number of unit transports available while never having to build one specifically. All overlords being transports also allow Zerg to easily send a good number of decoy(empty) transports to draw enemy fire and ensure drop success, all this without a big strain on resources.

- Zerg units are comparatively cheap to produce, it is easy to quickly amass a large army of units with Zerg. Even swarms of a single unit type can often provide relatively good results.

- Zerg has the most streamlined and flexible unit production scheme, producing any and all units from the hatchery. You can just keep constructing a single type of unit production structure but still has the ability to switch to produce any other unit on the fly.

- Zerg has the best tactical air unit of all races, and the only that can realistically pull off air tech rushes with efficiency and effectiveness. Muta is also the best air unit for early hit-and-run harassment by air, they are also the quickest to obtain among all similar options of all races.

- Zerg is the most capable at springing back from uphill battles by quickly producing large batches of replacement units. All currently available larvae can be used to replace lost combat units, overlords lost to ovie hunts, or workers lost to assaults on the mineral line, without having to wait for units to be queued one at a time per structure.

- All Zerg units and structures automatically regenerate 100% of their HP. They are always getting back to new by themselves automatically.

- Since most Zerg units are cheap and numerous yet have powerful offensive capabilities in number against equal food, it means taking a some losses is no big deal. If you can't kill all the Zerg in sight at once, then there is always some around to chip away at you. And often, you either stop the Zerg offensive completely and swiftly, or you gonna lose to the quick flow of replacement units in waves.

- Zerg damage output is the most efficient, while at the same time they receive the most "wasted damage" against them. Since Zerg forces are usually greater in number, there are more killing blows dealt against Zerg. More final hits that deal damage to drop that last bit of HP down to zero and kill them. With more killing blows, there is more damage that is wasted. Because on the final hit, chances are the remaining HP won't be exactly equal to the damage a unit can deal in a single attack.

If a zealot deals the killing blow to a zergling with 1 HP left, then 15 damage is wasted on that final blow, while only 1 damage from that attack was put to real use. That's a 93.75% waste factor in that example. The waste factor is not of the damage but the attack cycle, the zealot wasted 93.75% of it's relatively slow swing. So, not only was there "wasted damage," there is also a "wasted attack" factor.

In the same way, Zerg deals damage most efficiently. Zerg generally deal damage by fast repititions of low damage attacks, this ensures that each killing blow will have the least amount of wasted damage. By creeping up faster in smaller intervals, there is less chance of waste. Thus, it's highly efficient in the actual usage of the total damage output.

* There are a great many people who believe Zerg's individually weak units is a weakness, but it really isn't. They fail to realize that baking four(4x) 25-lb jumbo cakes isn't the only way to get you a 100-lbs of cake, baking 100 little 1-pounder baby cakes will get you there just the same. However, if you mess up the fat cakes, you can only replace it at the minimum 25% at a time, you can't do less because there is no smaller interval. But if you mess up some baby cakes you can replace them with greater ease and flexibility, such as just 7% or 13% at a time.

CONS:

- Most Zerg units are very flimsy individually, they have lower HP and armor compared to other race units. It is easy to quickly kill Zerg units, often even in just one or two attacks. This also means that Zerg units are generally more susceptible to splash damage and AoE spells. Also, against heavy enemy firepower, lesser Zerg units often have a hard time muscling their way through to reach their targets.

- Zerg is the only race realistically susceptible to supply rushes(ovie hunting). No other race really has this weakness.

- Zerg has no power drop options. There is no Zerg drop option that can deal heavy damage in a single hit or spell. This means you'll have to rack damage with unit normal attacks and also means your drop units are under fire full time. Tank and reaver dropping can be one-two popped in and out of transports to get them out of enemy ground fire while waiting for their cooldown, Zerg has no such thing.

- Zerg drew the short straw on special abilities and has the worst caster lineup. Not only does Zerg just flat out have one less caster than the other races(2 instead of 3), only the defiler is useful and practical enough to use in higher level multiplayer games. Zerg also has no units with single special abilities like corsair(web), vulture(spider mine), or BC(yamato).

- Zerg has no true full-time cloak unit, no unit can move and attack while fully under the effect of cloak.

- Zerg has the largest number of useless or impractical or super-suck units out of their lineup.

- Zerg in extremely micro intensive to play effectively at higher skill levels. Where other races can rely on spells or strength of unit combos, Zerg often has to overcome the opposition relying entirely on quick and skillful micro.

- Zerg can only build on creep. Zerg has the worst option when it comes to constructing buildings(static defense) at remote locations. Zerg also has no realistic option of blocking off the choke/ramp of their starting main with buildings and static defense.

EDIT: Added a little bit more stuff, I think that should be it from me.

[JimSkarrj]

Back on topic :P

i'd like to see Hydralisks and mutalisks get the ability to target both air and ground similateously, like some of the new toss and terrain units are getting..

and for the "ultimate" i'd like to see an upgrade that increases zerg overall....faster more hitpoints 4 larvae at hatcheries and faster lavae respawn ...... maybe a combination of these or +1 damage and armour to all units?...

i think this would bring the swarmy feel more.... than one (or more cause only toss get the 1/army limit)....

i think the duel shots should definately be an upgrade or even a mutation for lisks.....

id also like to see caster units have some kind of attack... annoys the hell of me that the "queen" cant even attack .... even the hero version Matriach while the hero templar Tassadar got an attack.... (he was a bit more important but still)....

another mechanic which would be cool.... mass parasite... roar.... (just like w3... bonus damage and life regen to units in area)... imagine suddenly your zerglings are doing 15 damage stead of 5 for 5 seconds....

id like to see a version of Ultralisk instead of claws has flame thrower alla starship troopers now that would be cool i think.... and make it big enough to hit air units (in the movie it shoots the escaping drop ship)...

i'd like to see sunken and spore colonies merged together dealing less damage more often and with duel shot ability either 2 land, 2 air or one of each. .... why cant zerg get something that can attack both ground and air... its always specialised (save lisks).... toss get phase cannons...

thats all i can think of for now.... if terrains can get reactors to keep up 2-3 vs zerg productions i'd definately like to see something for zerg.....

maybe an ungrade that spawns 2 of everything in each egg (ok its too powerful but sure would be nice...)>... 4 lings per egg!!!...

[Star-Crap]

Ok a good zerg counter for the colossus would be a godzilla like unit. It could be hit just like the colossus can by both air and ground. Insted it could attack only air units but shooting a guess spines at them. Thor like movement and able to walk over cliffs like the colossus.

[Ych9]

Nice post Remy:
I will also write out an analysis for SC2. Although what I'm going to write about is just pure speculations, it is still fun to do it nevertheless. I will only be writing up the Terrans and Protoss because they are the only race that we know in full details so far. It will only be the strengths of each races only because it is a lot easier to tell between each races strength with the info we got. It is much harder to tell the races weakness until we get our hands on the gameplay.

Protoss:
- Every units have crazy amount of HP. Your basic infantry the Zealot have around 3 times the HP compared to your counterpart. Immortals have more then twice the HP as your regular Siege Tanks. Collossus have more HP than a BattleCruisers while the MotherShip has well over 1000 HP.

- Warp-ins would allow for backup troops in an instant if you need them. They are also very helpful if your expansion is under attack and you need reinforcements. Also very useful for a surprise attack.

- Units like the Stalkers and Phoenix could be game breaking if used their abilities to its full potential. (Can also be sitting ducks if not sure properly).

-Phase Cannon is a very good all around defensive structure in that it can move anywhere within the Pylon Range.

Terrans:
-Extremely versatile. With the introduction to autocast SCV's, Terran can heal their infantry in an instant with Medics, or repair their damaged vehicles with their SCV extremely fast.

-Buildings can lift-off. Useful for expansions and escapes.

-Masters of bombardments. Siege Tanks, Banshees, and Thors all excells at bombarding bases. Siege Tanks and Thors can bombard base from very far away (longer range then any other units in game). Banshees are extremely effective against base raidings with their cloaked ability.

-Best overall defense - Plantary Fortress adds the spice for defense. Bunkers, Siege Tanks, Thors will blast units into pieces before they reach their targets. Supply depot can form a wall for your base and won't block your units if you decide to launch an offense because of the upgraded submerged ability.

[DontHate]

i think the zerg should have this thing that like allows you to "evolve" some units you already have without having to upgrade. For example, you can mix a zergling with a hydra to have a fast melee unit that can also attack air. Hmm, i'll just call it the "venolisk" becuase it sounds cool. anyways, it could use it's syth hands to attack with melle but it can also attack air. It's faster than the hydra btw, so giving it melle is not just hindering it. Lets say the melle is also as strong as a zealot. I'm not sure if this would be too imbalenced. Maybe i supposed. The possibilities are endless!

[JimSkarrj]

just came to me.. but i would like to see the nydus worm/canal be brought back to tier 1 (canal) and 2 (worm) this would allow much greater mobiility for the swarm

[Remy]

Good stuff Ych9, now I'm tempted to throw out an interim analysis of what we have of SC2 so far.  But since it's OT and I already posted a looong one, then went back and edited it to make it looooonger LOL, I think I'll wait a little bit for that.  At least time enough for some more posts to build up in between.

Now for Zerg mechanics, I would like to see Blizzard experiment with the idea of multi-tier(tech teirs) aspects for Zerg caster units.  If it works out they can implement it for the other races to, but I really want to see it done with Zerg.

Let me explain what I mean by "multi-tier aspect for Zerg caster units."  If cracklings were tier 1, hatch tech, they would easily be OP.  But they're not OP, because even though the underlying unit is the same zergling, which is a tier 1 unit, the crackling upgrade is placed at tier 3 of the Zerg's tech tree, or hive tech.  The same thing, except for caster units, which will be a first for SC.  However I detest the idea of making all caster units in SC2 build like WC3 casters, with their stupid ass step-by-step research upgrade.

Let me just give a solid example to clarify what I mean, and this is the main reason why I envisioned selectively implementing such a design in certain Zerg casters.  Move defiler down to tier 2, defiler mound or whatever equilvalent in SC2 buildable at lair tech.  The trick is, defiler starts with plague and no other spell, consume and darkswarm is available at tier 3.  The reason is, plague at tier 2 without consume will not be an imbalance, while darkswarm at tier 2 without consume would be an imbalance.

While plague is a great spell, and it really is, out of all the AoE DoT spells, it is the slowest to rack up damage.  Meaning, you have to wait a bit for the full result, and you can't really use it in hopes of causing any major impact immediately after casting it.  It will help Zerg out a bit by offering some decent spell casting capabilities for tier 2 for once, but it won't be enough to be abusable or even heavy sway the tides of battle without the consume ability.

This also goes quite well with Zerg, in that Blizzard design the Zerg race to have the worst spell casting capabilities.  With mutli-tier aspect caster units, Zerg can have some "lite" version caster units at tier 2 as to not be the spell spamming powerhouse and overshadow the other races.  But at the same time, Zerg players are still at least given some realistic options to incorporate caster units into their strategy at tier 2, which will be a welcome change.

With defiler at tier 2, Zerg still should get another caster at tier 2.  It could be a lesser caster with all its abilities/upgrades researchable at tier 2, or it could be like the defiler where it can only have a single ability at tier 2 but gets much stronger at tier 3.  This caster should of course require a separate building from the defiler mound, which will add the tech options, defiler or the other caster or even both if the player is pressing for GG at tier 2 while risking disadvantages in late-game upon failure.  Tech options and tech paths Blizzard, tech options and tech paths.

I also think perhaps the defiler could be given one more ability along with plague at tier 2(researchable on top of plague), a viable and useful spell yet much less powerful, such as ensnare.  If it's ensnare, it better be damn cheap, both in research and casting.  This should depend on how many spells Protoss and Terran caster units will have, Zerg shouldn't have more.

Also, one last thing.  Blizzard, giving Zerg caster units crappy ass primary/start-up non-combat spells is simply gayness.  That is another huge reason why the queen sucked like hell and no good player used them.  Hi-temp starts out with freaking mind-blowing psi storm, queens get what, parasite?  Are you kidding me?  No, I mean, really?

It doesn't have to be the most spectacular mob mopping spell.  Doesn't even have to be a direct damage spell if it has a direct use in combat like darkswarm.  You can even cut Zerg casters down to two, or even just one single spell.  But hell, do not, I repeat do not, make them start with crap like parasite.  Please Blizzard, please.  Useful units this time.  If you had to make a spell the startout spell because it's the least powerful out of the ones you thought of, and surely not a damn fool would ever research it otherwise, then maybe it's not the best choice to have as a startout spell don't you think?

Wow, it still got long, and I was just going to make just one idea suggestion.  I am cursed.

[Ych9]

I really like that idea Remy.
Although I have the same thought as you in that I hate how the Wc3 spellcaster upgrades work, in that they needed to be upgrade step by step, I think that this mechanic should be implemented to the Zergs only. It also makes sense for the Zergs to have defilers as Tier 2 for the plague ability because it wouldn't be overpowering like you stated. This would also further distingush between the races in SC2. Queen on the other hand, totally needs a revamp. But if they are to make a comeback, Blizzard should implement the Ensnare ability as their starting spell.

As we know, rumors are floating around about this Succubus caster for the Zergs. One of their ability is that it can invest 1 unit for a brief time and when the time expires, it explodes damaging all nearby enemies. I think that the Succubus caster should be a later Tier 3 caster, in that all of its spells are very damaging and powerful.

I have another suggestion for the Succubus spell. The ability is that it can raise and control the fallen warriors for a brief amount of time. Yep, you heard me right. I know a lot of you are going to reply and say, "WTF THIS IS SC2, NOT WC3. RAISE FALLEN WARRIORS DOES NOT BELONG IN THE SC2 UNIVERSE YOU NOOB!!!," but hear me out on this one.

As we know so far, Succubus are infested Ghosts. Every Ghosts have powerful Psionic abilities. So of course, the infested Ghosts would also have Psionic abilities too. But as a twist, since they are Zerg units, they should have a darker and more organic spells compared to their counterparts. So in order to raise the fallen warriors, they would channel all their Psionic abilities onto the corpse to raise them and fight for one last battle. Those raised warriors won't be revived and be living again. They are actually raised and controlled by the Succubus without having a mind of its own. He could control them for a brief amout of time using his invested Zerg Psionic abilities. So when this ability translates in real game, they are able to raise up to 5 organic units at 1 time for 30 seconds. Once that 30 seconds is up, all 5 units would explode damaging all nearby enemies. This ability would be a Tier 3 spell and requires a significant amount of mana.

[StormCrow]

Great ideas ppl :)

Here is one more of my own.



===The Zerg Chosen=== (Possible replacement for Ultralisk?)

This unit you should really be afraid of, since it's the most devastating killer that the Zerg have developed. It is so fierce and bloodthirsty that even the Zerg themselves are afraid of it. If there was no control over the Zerg by Kerrigan, these creatures would no doubt destroy each lesser Zerg that they would come across.

General info:

With four bat-like wings on its' back, the Zerg Chosen is able to leap over cliffs. It isn't able to fly because of its' huge size. While moving on the ground and attacking, this unit uses its' four wings as deadly spike-headed blades to pierce and tear the enemies that have the courage to stand on its' way.

Appearance:

The body is HUGE and quite similar to hydralisk's body with thick, spiked and fierce looking armor. It doesn't have arms or legs, but It has 4 wings on its' back that also work as a great weapon able to attack 4 enemies at the same time within its' range. (including air targets.)


- A new high tier unit for Zerg

- Costs much resources. Maybe even more than the Ultralisk.

- Has burrow. Has energy.

- Huge abount of armor and HP

- Attack range: Half-melee, half-ranged that also works on air targets. (similar to Firebat from SC)

- 2 researchable abilities that can only be activated one at time:



1.) Wing wall: A defensive ability. The chosen covers itself with the four wings. All damage recieved while using this ability is reduced by 50%. However it is unable to attack while in this form. The ability can be deactivated by the player when ever he/she wants.

2.) Rage: An offensive ability. The chosen goes into rage (lets out a loud, fierce voice that can be heared by everyone that has the chosen on his screen. The screen will shake, lol?), rapidly increasing its' movement speed and attack speed, while starting to twirl its' bladed wings and ripping everything on its' way. While in this form all damage dealt to the Chosen is increased by 50%. The ability can be deactivated by the player when ever he/she wants.

You think thats all?...No... I mentioned that these killers you should really be afraid of.


3.) A passive ability: When you kill the Chosen... It doesn't die yet. While very weak, it still continues to crawl on the ground with its four wings and lowened speed, now using them to get close to its' enemy and desperately land the final blow.
The chosen must be attacked about 5 - 10 seconds non-stop to kill it completely while in this form. If left alone the weakened body of the Chosen will regenerate to its' original form after 30 seconds.


Thats all folks. One unit and yet so much text...Heh.

[SirBaron]

@Stormcrow: The Zerg isn't about gigantic, costly and few units, it's more about masses. The units of the Zerg has always been a bit cheaper than those of Terran and Protoss, because the Zerg get lower prices than the other races.
Also, in SC1 the Ultralisk is really like... yuck, and that because it has one of the weakest attacks for a high-tier unit, it's not flying like the other two high-end units, and also because you gotta cough up a lot of money just to get one, when zerglings have a massive damage advantage over the Ultralisk yet cost alot less.

The Protoss has very powerful units that when upgraded are a pain to bring down for any of the races. They are diverse and can counter pretty much everything thrown at them, because of their mix of melee and ranged units. Their sole weakness lies in their insane resource cost, food cost and production time.

Terrans have the mightiest firepower of all and can expand faster than any other race, but lack on the melee front - once units get in range, that's about good night for the Terrans (since they haven't got shields like the protoss).

Zerg doesn't have very powerful units or really awesome firepower (although Guardians are really like *woot*) but they have insanely low production costs - the hatchery costs 100 minerals less than a CC or nexus and 1 zergling essentially costs 25 minerals - and the lowest food costs and production times of all.

The strength of the Zerg comes from it's abundance, whereever you find one zerg you're pretty much sure to find a thousand more (metaphorically speaking...) Introducing the ultralisk to the Zerg was quite a mistake imho, since it goes against the basic motto (well at least mine ;D) of the Zerg:
"Many, Cheap and Expendable." (sounds a bit like the Soviets during WWII, actually...)

[StormCrow]

SirBaron, I see your point and I agree that the 3 races should differ from each other significally. However,the Zerg doesn't have other ''big'' ground units than the ultralisk, besides the Terrans and Protoss can swarm like the Zerg, so I don't see why shouldn't there be one big unit that the Zerg could use. The swarm still stays, and the mach will in many cases be over before these big units start popping on the battlefield. It would be plain boring just to upgrade your Lings and Hydras until they have the power to take down 10 thors in a row :P I'd rather like to see something special that the Zerg hasn't seen before.

On a side note, I didn't like Ultralisks either. They were just big Zerglings to me with nothing special about them.

[Remy]

Hate to say it, but I would have to disagree with you on this one Ych9, your Raise Fallen idea would be OP.  I'm not saying this just because it's something out of War3, but Animate Dead and Resurrection were hero spells, and ultimates at that, for good reason.

Although I'm always against ideas of overly powerful things for Zerg, the ones that carry the theme of "super" or "ultimate," but this one really is on an ultimate level.  It's not the idea itself that's bad, but the extent of it.  One caster raising 5 fallen units is simply too powerful, 30 second time limit or not.

Even with just four succubi, that's already 20 units in one shot.  If these were hydras, that's an instant extra 10% of your 200 cap.  And if anyone ever even get to 200 almost 25% would be workers, so 10% of the 200 cap in combat units produced instantly and free is more powerful than it seems.

If we take a look at the "when-abused" scenario, 20 ultras would be 80 food worth of units, that's kinda insane.  That's just an extreme example, but in reality even for Zerg you can have 1-food and 2-food units all the time.  If you counter this by making it 5 supply's worth of units instead of 5 units period, then each cast is 10 zerglings.  With four succubi that's 40.  If you get an instant 40 extra back up cracklings just wham and poppling out of nowhere, it's pretty much GG.

Even if the resource and tech costs are high, it won't be too hard to get 4 succubi, if not easily more for those who are determined and shooting for it from the start.  And if you make it so hard to get where most people won't be able to get just 1 or 2, then it's pretty much an ultimate unit already.

I think the idea is fine, but it should be scaled down, way down.  Each cast only raise 1 or 2 units, but better yet exactly 2 food worth of units.  4 lings or 2 hydras per cast isn't bad, and probably less OP.  And keeping it 2 food limit keeps you from being able to raise any unit that costs more food, if there are to be some for Zerg in SC2.  That's just my take on it Ych9, I'm not hating on your idea.


1 zergling essentially costs 25 minerals - and the lowest food costs and production times of all.


Not counting workers, marines and firebats are actually the fastest produced units(shortest build time).  Zerglings have build time equal to that of hydralisks.  It's arguable that since you get 2 lings per larva the build time can be thought of as half for each ling, 14 instead of 28, but since you can never make single lings from all your larvae in the shortened build time of 14 to save yourself in a pinch, it's still 28.  But I'm just pointing that out for that one other person on Earth that cares besides me LOL.  Everything else you said made good sense and were good points.


On a side note, I didn't like Ultralisks either. They were just big Zerglings to me with nothing special about them.


A big zergling on the scale of ultralisks based on SC1 stats, would be a 4-food tier 3 unit that costs 200 minerals and NO gas(ultras cost 200 mineral 200 gas).  Hits for 40 damage per hit(double that of ultra's 20 per hit) with a cooldown of 6.  That's a 2.5 times faster attack than an ultralisk, so the total damage output is 500% of an ultralisk.  The downside is that it would only have 280 HP compared to the ultra's 400 HP, and no base armor either.  If we combined the build time of 4 food worth of zerglings too, it would take this "big zergling" to take 86% longer time to build than an ultra.

[SirBaron]

Heh, i learn something new everyday. :)

[Ych9]

I agree Remy, that the ability will be overpowered to a certain extent. But I think that although it will be overpowered, it won't be as powerful as the WC3 animate dead or resurrection. The reason is because in Wc3, the unit cap + your army is always pretty small compared to SC. In SC, it's usually large army vs large army. Therefore, I believe that the ability in SC2 won't be as powerful compared to the Wc3 counterparts.

But then again, I completely agree that if you start massing up Succubus late game, you can start raising an army of yourself during battle.
My way of fixing this is that the Succubus has to go right up to the corpse to lay the spell. Chances are, since that the Succubus is a caster, he will most likely have very weak HP. That way, they are much easier to be killed since they risk themselves during open battle. On top of that, once they raise a unit up, they would have a 5 second cooldown before they can raise another one. The max amount they can raise is still 5 units. By having the Succubus risk his life going right into battle and right by the corpse to raise it, and having a 5 second cooldown would make this ability not as abusive I believe. The mana would be changed to 50 mana per Corpse. Therefore, in order to raise all 5 units, you need the maximum amount of mana which is 250. Add the fact that the Succubus is a very late game unit and requires lots of gas would probably balance this ability out.

[ShdwyTemplar]

Going with your idea of Multi-tier Spell Casters evolution try this .

Tier Two Viral Shock Trooper

Zerg Corrupter
Tier : 2 Cost : 150 Minerals/75 Gas Food : 2
Attack : 0 Armor : 0 Hit points : 125 Energy : 150
Abilities : Corruption, Frenzy, Panic

The Zerg Corrupter is the first stage of the viral shock trooper strain for the Zerg. It is similar to the Zerg Deflier and Queen in its unique chemical and toxic arsenal. It is likely the genetic evolution of both strains of Zerg into one.

Corruption: The Corrupter borrows into the ground and unleashes toxic needles into the ground in a 3x4 grid area . Enemy units treading over this will experience damage over 25 Seconds (Similar to plaque.) Max damage inflicted equal to 25 damage points on any one unit or until the unit is down to 1 hit point. This ability can be avoided as the ground around it turns a darker, deathly shade of black. The Corrupter will appear above ground after 5 seconds of injecting the toxic needles into the ground. Cost : 75 Energy

Frenzy: The Corrupter unleashes a chemical compound onto nearby Zerg units ,which, sends them into a frenzy increasing the Zerg units adrenaline and fury increasing their Attack Speed and Movement Speed by 20% for 20 Seconds. Once the 20 seconds are over the Zerg units suffer a fatigued form of the buff receiving -20% Attack and Movement Speed for 20 seconds. Cost 75 Energy

Panic: The Corrupter unleashes a chemical cloud into the air near enemy units. Those units are sent into a state of fear, and, their attacks now now have a 10% chance to miss. This cast only affects biological units. Cost : 50 Energy

Second Tier Zerg Viral Shock Trooper(s) Evolved from [Insert Building Name]

Zerg Psionic Corrupter
Tier: 2 Morph Cost: 50 Minerals/25 Gas Food: 3
Attack: 0 Armor: 3 Hit points: 250 Energy: 200
Abilities: Frenzy, Panic, Psionic Leech

The Zerg Psionic Corrupter is the next form of the Zerg Corrupter as it transcends the Swarms intricate evolutionary strains with a larger Psionic ability induced by exposure to Terrazine Gas. This allows it to be a strong anti psionic entity of the Zerg.
Frenzy: Same mechanics as Zerg Corrupter ability. Cost: 50

Panic: Same mechanics as Zerg Corrupter ability. Cost: 50

Psionic Leech: The Zerg Psionic Corrupter is special in that it is superior in its psionic abilities to control the mind of others. This ability is employed to leech off of other creatures with similar psionic abilities. It does this by psionicly melding a parasite into the enemy psionic. This leech then drains the psionic until all energy feeds stops. At this point the corruption instantaneously kills the psionic by sending a metal explosion to its brain.( Sends out a leech to suck energy from caster, The Zerg PC gains energy at rate the caster loses. When caster is out of energy sends a psionic explosion into the caster killing it.)Note: The PC must remain in limited range to caster otherwise Psionic link to Leech is lost. Cost: 200 Energy

Zerg Viral Corrupter
Tier : 2 Morph Cost: 50 Minerals/25 Gas Food: 3
Attack : 0 Armor : 3 Hit points: 200 Energy : 250
Abilities : Corruption, Toxic Cloud, Spontaneous Combustion
The Zerg Viral Corrupter is the second strain of the Zerg Corrupter. This viral shock trooper has a much more deadly array of chemical compounds ,which, are used to an deadly end. This is the much more widely used viral shock trooper than its other spawn the Zerg Psionic

Corruption: Same mechanics as Zerg Corrupter ability. Only change is that damage is increased from 25 to 50. Cost: 50 Energy

Toxic Cloud: This cloud is similar to the cloud spawned by the Dark Swarm of the Zerg Deflier. Though, it is used much different extent. This cloud corrodes the armor of any enemy units coming into contact with it by attaching acidic spores decreasing the value of that armor by -2 for 45 seconds in a 3x4 grid area. This cloud once cast only last 15 seconds on the position. Enemy units do not start the countdown until they have left the radius of the cloud to have the negative buff removed.

Spontaneous Combustion: This ability is a unique one developed by this strain of Viral Corrupter. The Viral Corrupter mixes volatile chemicals into a small parasite. These volatile chemicals explode when in contact with certain elements. The VC then proceeds to inject the parasite( Much like the Queen does and its counterpart the Psionic Corrupter does with its Psionic Leech as well.) into an enemy unit. This unit then proceeds to explode, destroying the unit, and damaging nearby units in the process.

Tier 3 Zerg Viral Shock Trooper(s) Available Evolution After Hive

Zerg Psionic Mind Corrupter
Tier : 3 Morph Cost: 75 Minerals/75 Gas Food: 4
Attack: 0 Armor: 4 Hit points: 250 Energy: 250
Abilities: Psionic Storm, Psionic Embryo, Psionic Infestation

After countless strains of Zerg Psionic Corrupters the Zerg Swarm has begun to advance to its final strain the Zerg Psionic Mind Corrupter. This strain is one that has leeched psionic powers and now has the ability to manipulate storms such as those of the Protoss Templar. Along with this has come other psionic abilities ,which, it uses to combat psionic beings of the other races.

Psionic Storm: Same as Protoss High Templar. Cost 75 Energy

Psionic Embryo: This ability allows the Zerg Psionic Corrupter to Infiltrate the Mind of other casters and manipulate there DNA code as to allow the bursting of three Zerg Broodling's from the psionic. This ability comes at a high cost to the Psionic Mind Corrupter as it requires a substantial amount of energy. Cost: 150

Psionic Infestation: This is the Ultimate ability of the Psionic Strain of Corrupters. This Psionic Mind infest the minds of the other caster being targeted and subverts them to the will of the Zerg. This can now be used by the Zerg Swarm until it overloads with psionic energy causing a explosion damaging nearby units.(Opposite of Broodling energy countdown). Cost: 250

Zerg Viral Carrier Corrupter
Tier : 3 Cost : 75 Minerals/75 Gas Food: 4
Attack: 0 Armor: 0 Hit Points: 250 Energy: 250
Abilities: ???

At this point I've lost the ability to well... think of abilities. So feel free to think of some for the Zerg Viral Carrier Corrupter.

Each of these strains of Zerg would be attributed to a special purpose the Viral being mass or Larger killer, while, the Psionic being a anti-caster caster.
Also Green Text = Base Attribute Yellow Text = Psionic Strain Orange Text = Viral Strain I'm only human. :P I'll edit in some stuff later.
**Edited to make sense and correct word choice

[Remy]

ShdwyTemplar, I don't think you really got what I was saying about multi-tier Zerg caster units.  I'm sorry to say, but I have to say that I disagree with a lot of things you came up with.

Zerg should not have a caster unit at tier 1, and certainly not one with 3 powerful abilities.  Not to mention that all three of the tier 1 spells you mentioned would boarder on being OP even at tier 3, let alone tier 1.

I don't think you understand what 12 matrices count for in SC.  You had a mix of wording, there was 12 matrix radius and there was 12 matrix range/distance.  It sounded like you meant 12x12 AoE, that's insanely huge, no AoE spell in SC1 even comes close.  12 matrix "radius" would mean 24x24, and that's just insane.  One screen in SC was around 20x12, so a 12x12 spell is basically a full screen spell and 24x24 is a spell that covers an AoE of slightly larger than two full screens screens.

There is also no tier 4 btw, it ends at tier 3.  It seems like you want stuff from the Protoss and beyond.  This kind of madly powerful stuff really isn't Zerg at all.

[ShdwyTemplar]

Oh ty Remy you caught my mistake there I meant it as Grid Squares which is the measure of distance in SC Map editors for a block of terrain where units can be. Sorry for the confusion.

Do I get an A for effort? lol ;)

Ya it's fine as a lot of my ideas do seem after more thought Imba or OP, but still I have a insane thought process for how some units are most of the time. Still going back and reading it I think the Psionic Strain is too Protoss-ish.
Although, I think that if I was talking about Hybrids well... that might be a little more likely as a Strain.

[Star-Crap]

we all know zerg is all about the numbers and the lower resoursces right? **** not when u build up an army only for it to be destroyed by 3 siege tanks 2 bunkers. They should beef up the zerg cuz they do kinda lose the resourse battle.

[Remy]

Not really Star-Crap, unless all you do with Zerg is click attack ground, send and forget. If you fail to see that Zerg is a micro intensive race then you will never be happy with it.

@ ShdwyTemplar, not to give you a hard time, but unless I'm mistaken, each square on the grid in the map maker is actually one matrix. The two things are based on the same invisible grid system in SC and are basically the same.

[StormCrow]

The war isn't over yet, I shall have the glory, lol. Ok, How about this:

===[Stinger]=== A replacement for the scourge

- A low tier flyer

- has 2 abilities:

1.) Parasite spread: This unit will explode, sacrificing itself. While doing so 5 - 10 parasites fly and attach to all nearby non-robotic targets (both air and ground apply).

2.) Infest enemy flyer (Works with a mouse click on target non-organic flyer): The Stinger targers an enemy flying unit and attaches to it, making it move slower. A timer bar appears above the targeted flyer. When the bar goes to zero, the enemy flyer will be succesfully infested. The more there are stingers attached, the faster it will be infested. While attached the Stingers can be targeted and attacked by any anti air or air-to-air unit.
Notice: This ability would work on colossus since it can be attacked by air-to-air units.

The difference to the Scourge would also be that this unit is slightly harder to kill.

I hope Remy likes me now ;D

[ArchLimit]

2.) Infest enemy flyer (Works with a mouse click on target non-organic flyer): The Stinger targers an enemy flying unit and attaches to it, making it move slower. A timer bar appears above the targeted flyer. When the bar goes to zero, the enemy flyer will be succesfully infested. The more there are stingers attached, the faster it will be infested. While attached the Stingers can be targeted and shot down by any anti air or air-to-air unit.


I believe that the Succubus already has this "mind-control" like ability. I'm assuming by "infesting" you just mean take over. It's a good idea though, I think I may like it even more than a long ranged magic spell. It seems to fit the idea of what the Zerg would do better. They're not really psionic. They're grody beings who just want to poop on what they want to be theirs.

I think having underground movement would be great. Many ppl have mentioned this already so I won't go on about it too much more. I just wanna up the idea.

[Remy]

I have never NOT liked you StormCrow, not sure what gave you that idea...

I kinda like your stinger idea. If by "low tier" you mean tier 2, then it's fine.

I do have some questions on specifics about it though. Does it have a normal attack, if so how does it deal damage. What exactly does the parasite do, the same thing as SC1 parasite? What exactly do you mean by "infest?"

Although you put it up as a scourge replacement, it sounds very different in its role. Sound more like a suitable queen replacement to me based on what you have up there so far.

One other things is, I think it might be hard to implement a way to be able to specifically target individual stingers while they are attached to another unit.

You already have 6 power ups with only 33 posts, obviously a lot of other people like you. I'm not sure why you should even care if I like you, but like I said, I've never not liked you. ;D

If I haven't already welcomed you to the forums before, welcome to the forums StormCrow.

[StormCrow]

Thx for the welcome.

'' not sure what gave you that idea...'' Your avatar did, lol.

And sorry for not being so specific. Here are some details:


- I think the Stinger should be much like a mixture of the queen and the Scourge (but would still stay low or mid tier). This doesn't mean that the Queen would be scrapped. Blizzard would likely come up with other abilities accessable by the Queen.

- I don't think this unit needs a normal attack, but would be used mainly for scouting and controlling the air. If it had a normal attack, it shouldn't bee too powerful.

- By parasite I mean the parasite we know from the original SC.

- By infesting I mean slowly taking over a unit. You gain control of the unit and all of its' abilities. Lol @ Mothership... Well thats a proof of usefulness of the Stinger :P If the enemy isn't paying attention to his Mothership, then it is too bad for him.

- About targeting the Stinger: Maybe Blizzard will use a mechanic that lets you select a group of enemy units and start attacking them. Like, Hold A-button , drag an area with your mouse, and your selected units will attack all the enemies inside that area. Would make the targeting easier.


I recently swithed from Protoss to Zerg, and from this day on, i'll live for the Swarm. Zerg being quite new to me, I want to recieve advice from advanced Zerg players, and share some thoughts with them. ;D