P>T>Z>P?

[Eye_Carumba]

Yeah, that's what I'm asking! lol (don't worry, I'll explain)

In SC broodwar, even though some disagree, and it never kept the game from beeing perfectly balanced, zergs well played could beat more easily terrans, terrans stood a fair chance against protoss, and protoss had a strategic favorability against the zerg. Zergs with defiler's orange cloud would own a terran base, while hidras owned non-mechanical terran combos, and zergs could even benefit from terran comand center. Terrans had EMP shockwave to take out protoss shields, nukes and yamatos to take out important protoss units and structures from afar, detection to nulify their impressive cloacking skills. And the protoss had strong multi-target atks, such as psy-storm, reaver scarabs, archons, and DTs to counter even the orange cloud skill from the defiler. If you used plague, they still got shields. Zerg masses weren't that great against the protoss units. So it was T>P>Z>T back then.

So, from what I've seen so far on SC2, here are som things that caught my mind: Stalkers>Reapers; Warp Ray> Battlecruiser, Thor, terran structures; Colossus> marines and possibly Siege tanks; Immortal> Siege-tanks and possibly others; Carriers and or Mothership> bunker/missile turrets; even though Reapers > Immortals, Stalkers> reapers even before that; Ghosts are good vs. Zealots and... ??? Ok, so whats left for the Terran forces are Nomads, possibly with EMP shockwave, the Ghosts nukes (his only great feature left if he lost the lockdown); And terran air, usually second to Protoss air power. Is it possible that Protoss adapted from last starcraft to deal better with the terran threat, while the terrans took their time to worry about the zergs?

Take a look: Protosses have lost their main splash dmg, the reaver, leaving the mass unit counter to the High Templar and TA. Meanwhile, zergs who usually have a weak airforce, will have to face the Banshee, an anti-ground AoE Terran unit. The former Goliath can also leave the ground AND the air in case the need arises, to avoid any scourges or zergling masses coming their way. Ghosts can do great dmg on ORGANIC units instead of lockdown now, as he was preparing to fight an Ultralisk...

I can be terribly mistaken, and Terrans indeed have a good response to the Protoss units in these ones we don't know yet, but since the Warp Ray is meant to own the BC, and probably owns the Thor too, beeing the two main Terran strengths this time, I'm thinking we will have a Protoss>Terran>Zerg>Protoss now, as Protoss will hav to get HTs and archons to deal with Zerg mass units, and now with Nydus Worms they can go behind their united front. ;-)

Not saying the game is imbalance towards any race either. The fact is in later game, one race gets advantage over the other, like the Rock-Paper-Scissors game. Any can beat any. But isn't the protoss made to beat Terran preferably?

[Itsmyship]

You don't think that Snipe and Drop Pod are good abilities? I mean, I miss Lockdown as much as the next guy, but these two abilities definitely make up for it.

[paragon]

Smartcasting means that snipe will take all of 1 second to cast... for all the ghosts you have selected.
It's not select one, snipe, select another, snipe, select another, snipe. It's select all, snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe.
I'm going to snipe zealots like there's no tomorrow.

And I think it will be T=P=Z

[Arachanox]

Your theory has one big issue; Bugs will never be greater than the might Protoss. Ever. In fact, the protoss are so frickin awesome, they should just have a psychic aura around them that causes underdeveloped life forms like zerg bugs to have their hearts collapse. Protoss > Bugs.

[Ych9]

We cannot conclude if any race is going to be better then the other one as of now.
But what we can conclude is that one race is going to have a very slight advantage over the other one, but it won't be something that is going to be gamebreaking. If all used correctly, just like what Paragon stated, it would be closer to something like P=T=Z instead of the P>T>Z>P that you stated.

[Fenix]

No, more like Hybrid>P+T+Z

[millions]

Well if warp ray is better than BC i think Vikings might be a good answer to that they seem like pretty good anti air .Vikings might also be the answer to Colossus as well since they are affected by anti-air as far as stalkers and immortals banshee seems like a counter because for one immortals cant attack air and banshee has area of effect.... And just like Ych9 said they will keep working on it until all race are equal in the video they were describing how to counter each terran unit with terran units so i believe that this is their mentality between the different races as well.

[Eye_Carumba]

Yes, vikings better make a good anti-protoss unit, or Terrans might have a hard time with them. I wonder if overload hits air AND ground. Because if Vikings can change from air to ground, they could avoid the overload and make a good counter vs. Protoss, right? But I think overload hits everywhere.

They should make overload hit only air, and this way, Terran would be balanced vs. Protoss. Imagine a MS with carriers, colossi and Warp Rays. Warp Rays take the siege tanks, Thors and bunkers. Colossi takes marines and reapers. Carrier's interceptors can divert the spontaneous (not player directed) shots, and deal a lot of spread dmg. Warp Rays can take care of any BCs aswell. Who else would the terrans call for?

Nomads, Vikings and Predators are their only (units left, lol) hope. Nukes shouldn't be used as defense unless you use it as a surprise tactics. So these three better count.

The remaining Terran options would be Ghost's more marines summoning (and they would still be dealt with by the Colossus), Ghost's snipe that wouldn't work against these protoss units; Cobra, which I don't really believe will be a good answer for air or Colossus, and Banshee, that can be taken care by the Carriers/Warp Rays/Phoenixes aswell. It has to be Nomad/Viking/Predator counter! ^^

[DontHate]

if immortals can't attack air such as banshees and bc's ect. i think they're going to be useless. i mean there isn't even a damn reaver anymore.

[Eye_Carumba]

Immortals are anti-siege tanks, and perhaps that's it. You're right, they should at least hit air. Are you sure they can't do it?

[millions]

yeah from what i heard that might change thou stalkers hit both air and land simultaneously in one shot

[Shadowdragon]

I figured it out! Try and keep up,
P>T>Z unless a critter is present, in which case Z>T>P, unless of course, this critter has a shade of grey and fur, in which case T>P>Z, but obviously, we have to add Kerrigan and divide by Zeratul, so T>Z>P, unless of course, you multiply by Raynor, in which case you get critter>P+T+Z/Duran.

See, it's easy!

...

On second thought, maybe it's PZT >ZTP <TPZ.

[Fenix]

I figured it out! Try and keep up,
P>T>Z unless a critter is present, in which case Z>T>P, unless of course, this critter has a shade of grey and fur, in which case T>P>Z, but obviously, we have to add Kerrigan and divide by Zeratul, so T>Z>P, unless of course, you multiply by Raynor, in which case you get critter>P+T+Z/Duran.

See, it's easy!

...

On second thought, maybe it's PZT >ZTP <TPZ.


The problem with that is that it's in Base 13. If you put it in Base 10, then it's all off. In Base 10, it would be:

P=Z+T unless you're on Char, in which case, it would be P+Z>T. However, if the T has a Thor and three Banshees, it would be H=T+P*Z. If you divide that by X'N, you come up with H+X'N/Z=P+T, unless there is an X'N Hero, in which case H+X'N-Z=P*T.

[burkid]

oh, H is hybrids. took me a second to figure that out.

[PowerkickasS]

No, more like Hybrid>P+T+Z

second that

:powerup: to fenix and shadow

[JBL]

that P>T>Z>P sounds very logical since terran will have the aoe to rape the zerg army and zerg will probably easily deal with the massive air force of the protoss. and the terran doesn't look like super duper strong against the protoss air power.

[Dxun]

Its probebly going to be more along the lines of D>H>Z>T=P>M=T

but im bias ;)


:powerup: to the first person to tell me what M stands for ;D

[DontHate]

Immortals are anti-siege tanks, and perhaps that's it. You're right, they should at least hit air. Are you sure they can't do it?

i'm not exaclty sure, but there i dont think we ever seen an immortal shoot an air unit in any video.

[burkid]

yeah, im pretty sure immortals cant hit air. and they have crappy range.

[DontHate]

this really sucks. i thought immortals would be awesome but they can't even hit range... shucks.

[Dxun]

Me?


Nope its not me.

If it was Me wouldnt I be..you know better spot on the list?


@DontHate SC2 is still atleast a year away so dont get down.

[Eye_Carumba]

Immortals are High templar support. Perhaps they should get psy storm imunity aswell to facilitate things. They are meant to get into line of fire to allow HTs to approach and PS the enemy lines. :-)

[i2new@aol.com]

Zerg beat terrans, terrans beat protoss and protoss beat zerg.

I think the stupid loss of lockdown was gay. But with the new smart-cast system where if u have a group of the same casters and cast an ablity only one cast that ability, i can see why they took lockdown away. Could you emagin having all your units macanical units locked down by an army of ghost and the over abuse of snipe.

[Eye_Carumba]

That's the point: with lockdown and reaver's splash gone, the circle has been reversed: Terrans have the strong anti-ground mass atk, and Protoss have anti-armor to beat terran's tough units.

[Dxun]

Mengsk?


:powerup: for you my good sir.




Mengsk sucks! But I guess I gotta thank him for getting karrigen infested :D

[Fenix]

I rule.

For such a wimpy guy, he changed the course of three different races. Weird, innit?

[burkid]

its only because hes a spineless b*stard that wants to rule the sector and will use anyone to do it. i think kerrigan learned from him.

[Gasmaskguy]

well, some of you people seem pretty sure about the P>T part, but think about that protoss have lesser, more expencive/powerful units, and if the protoss have 3 warp rays you would probably have 4-5 predators for the same price to deal with them.

[Eye_Carumba]

And who said Predators will be able to deal with a Warp Ray? >:-) Anyway, high numbered units always deal with Warp Rays, as they long to kill. Gasmask, I think you're right! Anyway, I still hope that the game ends up very balanced, and has fair chances of victories between all races.

[Indigent]

Zerg beat terrans, terrans beat protoss and protoss beat zerg.

I think the stupid loss of lockdown was gay. But with the new smart-cast system where if u have a group of the same casters and cast an ablity only one cast that ability, i can see why they took lockdown away. Could you emagin having all your units macanical units locked down by an army of ghost and the over abuse of snipe.
No.. Boxer did that in a game once. He totaly locked down his oponents wall of tanks and AA units (Goliaths). Lol that was a funny day. Lock down doesn't show up on the screen. So he was all like omg I am so pissed and left the game.

[Fenix]

Anyways, snipe only works against Organix.

[Gasmaskguy]

that is really anoying when you want to use that large sniping damage against healthy protoss units.. no use to waste at hydras and smaller. only zealots(if that works, SHOULD work) and big, unknown large zergunits and other terrans would be good targets. sniping medics just when a battle where other T masses marines should work quite well i guess :-)

[Gasmaskguy]

oops said both big and large XD

[Fenix]

Which is why the Forum as an edit button. Please use it in the future. It makes the threads more precise.

[Indigent]

Lol they should make you and paragon moderaters. :)

Edit: Okay maybe not peragon. No offense.. Don't hurt me! I wear glasses... Not really.

[Fenix]

Lol, Paragon would just delete any post that he didn't like, and I would probably end up locking half the threads.....I'm a mod in the News and Blizzcon section though. I got my three diamonds, so I'm happy.

[Indigent]

Lol. You aren't that bad. Guesed Mengst before I said it! Nooo. I want power level raised.. :(

Edit: I was just kidding, but I would also like some minerals and a ghost pet too!