what do you think about rally points?

[Warsaw]

I dont think ive seen anybody else talking about it so i thought i would bring it up. What do you think about rally points for starcraft 2. Not the ones on buildings which send your units across the map after they are built. Im talking about the ones in like wc3 where you could tell your peon to build a burrow, then a barracks, then repair another building, then go back to harvesting, all in like 3 seconds by holding the shift key. I thought that amount of control was sooo useful in wc3 and it gave you the ability to focus on other things like mircoing in battles or scouting. I remember when i went back to playing sc the thing i hated most was having to send out multiple SCVs to do multiple tasks just so that i wouldnt have to remember it later on. Im hoping that SC2 will have this feature. What do you guys think about it?

PS: im not sure if they were called rally points but i dont know what theyre really called. could somebody tell me if they had another name.

[burkid]

i think its constuction queue (thats what i call it) and yes, its been confirmed in SC2

[Fenix]

Really, I'm just happy you can rally workers to Minerals and Gas.

[burkid]

well gas only if you have a refinery/assimilator/extractor on it.
im glad about that too, you can focus on your forces more.

[Fenix]

It was rather annoying. It seems that SCII is getting much more streamlined and geared towards convenience and speed. I like it. Imagine how this is gonna change the first five minutes,

[burkid]

yeah, the first five minutes will be less looking for workers that arent doing anything and trying to get them to mine efficiently, and more getting some defences to block/execute a rush.

[Fenix]

Exactly. And I read that there will be an idle worker button. This is a Godsend for Protoss. I can't count the amount of times I've lost track of a Probe due to color schemes.

[Warsaw]

yeah the idle worker button will kick ass in sc2. in wc3 it was the button left of the 1 button. I think its called the tilda or something but yeah in wc3 it was a lifesaver. I hope its the same place or at least i could change the hotkey to that.

[burkid]

yeah, like hiding in the shadow of a stargate.
i found to idle button in WC3 to be the best thing ever. except on the level of the orc campaign when you get chaos orcs (with hellscream) because chaos peons arent considered workers anymore to the idle button and chaos kodo riders are. so you cant find your workers, and unless youre fighting something you got a message that you have an idle worker that wont go away lol.

[zeratul11]

i think the rally point looks cool now. in the terran demo you can see a green line pointing to the rally point. much better than the flag base rally point in warcraft and the hidden rally poinjt in starcraft 1.

[burkid]

i loved the undead rally point. it had the flag with a head stuck on top.

[GrahamTastic]

The task queue? Yes, I read somewhere that it will be in the game. That will be great. As for the rally points, I like the lines. They should make lines that actually follow the path that the unit will take to get to the rally point, instead of just pointing straight to it. (maybe that could be a mode that you could toggle to) Also, hooray for idle worker buttons! That is the single most important advancement in the interface since SC came out. It will make things SO much easier. (It certainly did with WCIII)

[Ariel]

Important things to note:

*Rally points that allow workers to begin mining right away decrease micro.
*'Idle worker' option also decreases micro.
*Construction que decreases micro once again.

My basic point here is that while such streamlined gameplay is awesome, (as it makes the game easier to play) having options such as the above, will DECREASE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SKILLED PLAYER AND AN INEXPERIENCED ONE.
Personally, I believe that SC1 is largely successful due to a number of percieved inadequacies in gameplay. Remember, if you have to order your individual workers to gather resources, it makes the game harder to 'master'. (Instead of just learning a few tricks like setting rally points on minerals, players have to be constantly watching their base/s, as part of the skill involved in good management.
I used to crave that idle worker button, until I realised that its absence actually increased micro.

On this point, notice that in SC1, ground units appear at the bottom of their barracks/hatchery/gateway, (in relation to the map) wheras in WCIII, they emerge closest to the destination rally point. Note that SC1's system allowed boxer (I think he was the one) to pull off the Pimpest Play where he trapped tanks with pylons because of the spawning point.

The question is, do we want SCII to be a game of fun or a game of skill?
(Lol, just asking)

[BirdofPrey]

First lets all get the terms down
---Rally points are what you set for a building to send units to a designated area after construction
---Waypoints are a path of points set going towards a destination
-----They can be used to queue up taskes by setting tasks as a waypoint


I think they should have this. I always liked it in other games where I could queue up special abilities as part of the waypoints. Some examples would be form C&C 3 just because that is all I cna think of right now. I always send my mini mcv to a point using waypoints to the destination with the last point being an unpack order.

This could work in SC2 in this way:
You have a ghost and a nuke You use waypoints to get him outside the enemy base one of the waypoints is the cloak order and another is the uke order so you set up the attack and the ghost will carry out the orders until completion or death without your intervention so you can move some workers around or set op the followup attack. Obviously if unseen circumstances occur you can still manually take control.

[Joneagle_X]

This was an informative thread. I knew there was an idle peon button, but I had NO idea we'd have a build queue.

Great thread!

[Major Willy]

I'm hoping along with the idle worker button and rally points there's the Shift orders.
Move here, duck left, keep going, then attack this. Whoops off-topic.

Has it been confirmed workers will auto-mine and collect gas if the rally point is right clicked onto the appropriate spot?

[Ariel]

Thanks for the welcome guys.
Hmm..I know that most of you are a fan of streamlining the game, and I think mostly its a good idea too.
HOWEVER, have you people seen the incredible 'Pimpest Plays'? (Replays of incredible micro maneovres Koreans have pulled off) A lot of these plays contribute to making SC1 a good spectator 'sport'. A lot of these plays are based around the limited interface. (Like my earlier example of limited rally point options enabling a really cool manouvre)
Another example is when BoxeR did this tricky little move with vultures that allowed them to slip through an otherwise impossible space

Part of what makes SC1 so awesome is there is ALWAYS room to improve. I have a few Newbie friends who constantly forget to tell newly ordered workers in expansion bases to mine, which results in inefficiency. Part of the awesome SC1 experience (on the more competive level of course) was trying to be ultimately efficient.

I hear people who went to Blizzcon rejoicing at the fact that the 'Koreans will no longer own the game' because Blizzard has lessened the importance of MACRO, and new players stand a greater chance.
Isn't the balance between macro and micro a good thing in SC1? I think it'd be sad if the 'efficiency' in both economy and war was lost. (However..I am in the process of re-evaluating my stance)

[DontHate]

i dont think lowering micro/skill about build ques and rally points auto telling units to mine will make noobs that much better, but what will make noobs better is if they simplify micro in COMBAT. for instance, if they automaticly let 2 ht storm on 2 different unit filled spots automaticly... that would hinder micro.

[Remy]

There is no reason why players should be left stuck having to MICRO something that is meant to be MACROed.  Lower skilled players would not automatically made to have a better chance against higher skilled players simply because of this change.  More skilled players would still macromanage more efficiently(both in terms of quickness and strategic prudence) and have the upperhand in better micro.

Changing basketball to be played with one eye covered, and so you can only hop on one leg and only handle to ball with three fingers on your left hand, just to create a greater gap between the top and the bottom skill level of players is silly wouldn't you agree?

I'm sure the top players in the world would only be people who can somehow overcome these handicaps and still play efficiently.  And I'm sure there would be amazing moments like "OMG did you see him make that full-court shot with only three left-hand fingers on one leg with one eye covered!?" that would only be possible if these extreme limitations were enforced.  But for the good of the sport, and its advancement and evolution, these restrictions are unnecessary.  It would be more freak show than sport.  I really believe that surprisingly, people actually appreciate true skill more than they value interesting stunts, the true "fans" of the "sport" anyway.

And back to the topic of construction queue, I guess the Zerg drew the short straw on that one.

[Wlck742]

Constructions queues would be great. One of the new additions to WC3 that really rocked that SC didn't have. It's so annoying that you either wait for the first building to finish or use multiple workers, which might not be an option.

[Remy]

Using multiple workers is the only option for Zerg. :upset:

[burkid]

hehe remy, your precious zerg will get something so frickin awsome, you'll forget about build queues. you can quote me on that. ;)

[Remy]

My precious...

I hope you're right Burkid, I really do.

My precious...

[Joneagle_X]

Lol... why...?

We'd better get some kind of awesome mechanic that makes my jaw drop and forces me into a period of rest and meditation.

In preparation for the COMING OF THE SWARM!!!!!!!

[Wlck742]

Haven't we always gotten that sort of thing from Blizzard?

[Unentschieden]

Customizable Hotkeys will have much more impact on gameplay than rallypoints and multi building selection combined.

The "difficulty" and mesure of skill should come from dealing with your enemy and not dealing with the game itself. SC is a strategy game, not a economy simulation.

Resources shouldn´t be earned with effort (clicking workers), they should be a result from your stragey, if you decide to use half the workers than your enemy for rushing (example don´t bother explaining actuall strats) you should have less resources, not because he is better at worker micro.

APM/clicking skill has it´s place but in my belief not on the Macro (base building/resource management) side of the game.

[Remy]

I disagree. Custom hotkeys, albeit would be very useful, it wouldn't outweigh rallypoints and building queue. Hotkeys are just memorizing and getting used to. If you're serious about it, you can remove all the keys that you don't need form your keyboard. Also, players who find default hotkeys to be comfortable would see little benefit in customizing, I don't believe the default hotkeys would be too unusable.

[BirdofPrey]

The usability of hotkesy to me is based upon how universally they are. In SC the hotkeys were all a different letter corresponding to the name of the unit or ability. I always prefered the generic hotkeys based upon the grid location of the button for item in question as it is easier to pick up and faster to use. Also if all the hotkeys are based on location instead of name you can bunch them up into a smaller area for faster acess.

An example SC1 hotkeys generally first letter in building name. They are spread out across the keyboard. If the hotkeys were all on the numpad based on location in the command interface all the keys are together so you don't have to move your hand. This buys you an extra second of micro time.

[DontHate]

oh, i never knew u could have construction q's in wc3. sweet.

[MarineCorp]

Huh!? there was construction queues in Wc3?? that's so strange

[Wlck742]

There's construction queues in nearly every recent RTS now.

[Major Willy]

You can queue movements, attacks, and patrol routes as well.

Shift click is fun.

[missamanda]

heh, i really hated when you picked the minerals as a rally point and after so many drones they would stand around -_- sometimes... and sometimes when i used them I would forget XD So i prefer to micro everything... which sometimes costs me a little extra time than other players :/

[Major Willy]

That'll be fixed in SC2, although I did like to micro, even if it's something as mundane as telling the SCV to mine.

[BnechbReaker]

yeah now you don't have to remember to send scv's back to work after then finished a building